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Old January 17th, 2017, 07:08 AM   #81
Triple Jim
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I asked about your 2-stroke experience because of starting and jetting. As subxero was saying, something is wrong if it doesn't start easily when warm, and once you get a good cold procedure, it should start almost as easily then.

I don't like the spoke sealing method in the link you posted. I like methods like the one that has you put a sticker over each nipple to keep sealer off, and then silicone over it all. Or the more expensive kit you can buy that gives you tape that covers all the nipples. The Seal-All method look like it will prevent you from being able to true the wheel, and even though it's a good product, it hardens a bit too much for that application. Like if a nipple gets jarred, its sealer may crack loose from the rim.

Woody's Wheel Works has a video that shows how they seal wire spoked wheels. I can't remember if I found it on their site, or on YouTube, but it's worth taking a look at. I think it was a short segment in a longer video about their business.

A lot of tubeless tires are also OK with tubes, but just don't say so in the literature. Check with the manufacturer. They usually have a statement that says all their tires are OK with tubes, or all except particular lines are OK with tubes, etc..
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Old January 17th, 2017, 07:15 AM   #82
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do they make tubliss systems for smaller wheels? I know you can get them for standard 18" 19" and 21" dirt wheels.

The tubliss system was also designed more for off road bikes to run super low PSI in the rear but can't see why it wouldn't work the same with 30 PSI give or take???

How big is your front wheel?

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&s...h%2C+supermoto
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Old January 17th, 2017, 07:30 AM   #83
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Something just occurred to me.... Where the hell are the pictures!?

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Old January 17th, 2017, 09:49 PM   #84
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Something just occurred to me.... Where the hell are the pictures!?

Well, I've been burned in the past by posting pictures but I'll see what I can do.

Then again, the security of my work space has drastically increased and I'm in a new location so I'll see what I can do.

Thanks for all the help. I've learned that when you're doing stuff that typically hasn't been done before, and word gets out -- all kinds of intellectual leeches pop out of the woodwork and if they aren't overtly trying to duplicate the end result and take credit for it, they're trying to undercut the 'idea' man and stand on the shoulders of giants. Lol sorry about the metaphors.
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Old January 17th, 2017, 10:02 PM   #85
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A few things.

You are probably right about the kicker not matching up with the 250 AF. However the 500 kicker was actually designed to stop on the peg. The OEM 500 kicker has extra material in that specific area that hits the peg flat at the bottom of the stroke as a stop.

I'll check on this when I'm able. The size of the 'dent' in the kicker from the footpeg is alarming but not deep enough to compromise the strength of the kicker itself.

Starting difficult when hot?? That is backwards, and points towards your jetting.

Find out what the carb is. Odds are its a Keihin, but what one??? Is it a PJ 38mm (original carb outdated carb) is it a regular PWK? 38 or 39 or bigger? or is it a newer PWK airstryker or something else.
Either way, the original PJ uses the choke to adjust the idle. You turn the choke in or out to adjust the idle. The PWK has a normal idle screw on the side that controls the slide height and there is an air screw as well on the intake side. Those can be used to fine tune your idle and just off idle throttle.
Then just work on your jets based on what carb you have and elevation ect...

This bike definitely isn't running "right" -- that was my initial impression after the first ride. I'm working from memory but I recall that the idle adjustment happens by twisting the choke. I really do need to get some pictures posted. I leafed through the phonebook-sized file that the PO gave me and found a lot of useful information. This bike has been AROUND.

A big thing is that the 500 cylinder is a steel sleeve and people typically use cast pistons, make sure you do a proper warm up of the bike before you go blasting it or you will need a top end job way earlier than 20hrs. If you are not blasting the 500 on the pipe all the time you can get a lot of hours out of a bore and piston. Since it is a big bore bike you are not running the high revs as much like an 85 or 125cc 2t.

Good info. I usually would keep a piston or two on hand for this sort of machination but as stated -- this is a back burner project right now. I'll be compiling information in my spare moments but progress will be slow until I get something else rolling and riding.

Like I mentioned before, always place the piston one click after TDC when kicking the bike cold, doesn't hurt to do it when it is warm either. Slowly push the kicker until you can feel the resistance build until it is maxed out and then just releases, then push the kicker just slightly until you get one click out of it. Return the kicker to top start position then give her one really solid follow through kick. This gives you enough resistance free rotation to build up momentum to get a few rotations out of the piston from the kick and is just plan easier. Repeat until started. I typically prime the cylinder a little bit with the throttle and kicker slowly before trying to start it but pay attention to how your bike likes to start and stick with it.

In my limited research I've read a few techniques for starting this beast. Some say that by leaning the bike past 30 degrees to one side causes the carb to overflow in a way that primes the cylinder but I haven't really put my mind on it yet and it sounds kinda funky.
Thanks bro. Sharing your experience is really helping. I'm probably gonna need to gear this thing to the moon to get longevity out of the engine. I don't plan on riding it until I have a chance to really go through it and see what I'm working with.
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Old January 17th, 2017, 10:46 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Triple Jim View Post
I asked about your 2-stroke experience because of starting and jetting. As subxero was saying, something is wrong if it doesn't start easily when warm, and once you get a good cold procedure, it should start almost as easily then.

Yeah it's kind of tricky to wrap my mind around. On a chainsaw or weedwhacker with pull-start, I estimate that a good strong pull would spin the engine over 10-12 times based on displacement and engine compression. On the 500, two combustion strokes per kick is a lot more tiring in terms of starting effort.

I don't like the spoke sealing method in the link you posted. I like methods like the one that has you put a sticker over each nipple to keep sealer off, and then silicone over it all. Or the more expensive kit you can buy that gives you tape that covers all the nipples. The Seal-All method look like it will prevent you from being able to true the wheel, and even though it's a good product, it hardens a bit too much for that application. Like if a nipple gets jarred, its sealer may crack loose from the rim.

Good points. The problem with expensive kits that come with tape is [aside from being expensive] that if a single spoke nipple develops a leak -- the entire wheel must be re-done with another [expensive] kit. By having each spoke nipple independently sealed, repairs to the system can happen more quickly and with less effort or cost.

Woody's Wheel Works has a video that shows how they seal wire spoked wheels. I can't remember if I found it on their site, or on YouTube, but it's worth taking a look at. I think it was a short segment in a longer video about their business.

I'll check it out.

A lot of tubeless tires are also OK with tubes, but just don't say so in the literature. Check with the manufacturer. They usually have a statement that says all their tires are OK with tubes, or all except particular lines are OK with tubes, etc..
Good info.
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Old January 17th, 2017, 10:53 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by subxero View Post
do they make tubliss systems for smaller wheels? I know you can get them for standard 18" 19" and 21" dirt wheels.

The tubliss system was also designed more for off road bikes to run super low PSI in the rear but can't see why it wouldn't work the same with 30 PSI give or take???

How big is your front wheel?

https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&s...h%2C+supermoto
I don't know if tubliss systems are available for non-typical dirtbike wheel sizes. A lot of supermoto bikes have smaller wheel diameters and wider rim widths than dirt wheels.

More stuff to study.
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Old January 18th, 2017, 06:19 AM   #88
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Thanks bro. Sharing your experience is really helping. I'm probably gonna need to gear this thing to the moon to get longevity out of the engine. I don't plan on riding it until I have a chance to really go through it and see what I'm working with.
I get what you are saying about pictures but if you are just posting pictures of your bike and not build pictures I think you should be ok.

As far as starting i don't ever mess with tipping the bike over.

Turn the fuel on, put the kicker through a few cycles to get some fresh air in the system, hold the throttle open a little and cycle it another 2 times or so. Then put piston just past Top dead center, return kicker to start position and give it a sharp kick.

see what year the engine is and if anything was done to it.

I believe the 94-01 engines had a wide ratio tranny.

89-93 was the exact same engine but with a closer ratio tranny.

Lots of people swap the 94+ WR tranny into the 89-93 engines so it helps to know what was done to the engine and there were actually some really nice aftermarket WR transmissions available at one point, most are long gone and snatched up but once in a blue moon one will pop up for sale here or there.
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Old January 18th, 2017, 08:15 AM   #89
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If it doesn't seem to be running right, I would look into the carb to see if it's the original size and type.

When I got my Derbi it had a much larger Mikuni Flatside on it, and the jetting wasn't even close. It was so rich in the midrange it wouldn't even run when it hit 1/2 throttle. I had to replace all the jets - the needle jet, jet needle, and Pilot jet, and Main jet.

If that's the correct carb I would confirm that all the jets are correct, and maybe replace them all with new of the original size so you have a good starting point. Sometimes people drill out the jets, so you don't always know if they are what they should be. Most likely you will need to re-jet, but starting from the original sizes would give you a good starting point for your tuning.

Be sure to run the same gas (ethanol-free if you can get it) and the same oil and ratio the entire time. Running in the 32:1 or 40:1 ratio isn't a bad idea, and even though it seems odd, more oil can give you more power (and more engine life as well).

That bike should be a blast when you get it all dialed-in. Back in the day I had a CR125 and a RM125. My first street bike was a RD400, and then a RZ350. For sheer riding thrills, it's hard to beat the explosiveness of a good running 2-stroke coming on the pipe. I don't think you need to try to restrict it in any way, just keep your wrist in check!
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Old January 18th, 2017, 05:45 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corksil View Post
I don't know if tubliss systems are available for non-typical dirtbike wheel sizes. A lot of supermoto bikes have smaller wheel diameters and wider rim widths than dirt wheels.
Ghetto style: gorilla tape and sealant. Many many MTB tires have been run tubeless this way, it also works for dirt bikes.
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Old January 18th, 2017, 08:52 PM   #91
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Ghetto style: gorilla tape and sealant. Many many MTB tires have been run tubeless this way, it also works for dirt bikes.
But not for 17" supermoto wheels, that are ridden hard at least. The heat generated will cause the adhesive to degrade then the tape balls up and leaks. Very suddenly. If it happens while you are rolling, you're probably going down and grinding/denting your rims in the process.

For supermoto, my advice is to use tubes with spokes, use mag wheels (the newer Warp 9 mags are a good value), or the coolest but most expensive option, Alpina tubeless rims. Mmmm....

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Old January 18th, 2017, 10:36 PM   #92
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Old January 19th, 2017, 08:27 AM   #93
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But not for 17" supermoto wheels, that are ridden hard at least. The heat generated will cause the adhesive to degrade then the tape balls up and leaks. Very suddenly. If it happens while you are rolling, you're probably going down and grinding/denting your rims in the process.

For supermoto, my advice is to use tubes with spokes, use mag wheels (the newer Warp 9 mags are a good value), or the coolest but most expensive option, Alpina tubeless rims. Mmmm....

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Old January 19th, 2017, 08:46 AM   #94
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I guess the flashing orange and black is to distract competitors.
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Old January 19th, 2017, 10:04 PM   #95
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I get what you are saying about pictures but if you are just posting pictures of your bike and not build pictures I think you should be ok.

Yeah part of my concern is about thieves and attracting attention. Doesn't seem to matter if I have eight high-def security cameras rolling 24/7 with automated motion-sensitive triggered email sent directly to my phone (with a picture, lol) -- locked gates, dogs, and all forms of weaponry both orthodox and otherwise -- sometimes people really get stupid and try to take things that aren't there's.

As far as starting i don't ever mess with tipping the bike over.

Turn the fuel on, put the kicker through a few cycles to get some fresh air in the system, hold the throttle open a little and cycle it another 2 times or so. Then put piston just past Top dead center, return kicker to start position and give it a sharp kick.

This right here is a solid starting regiment which I will adhere to each and every time I try to start that beast.

see what year the engine is and if anything was done to it.

I believe the 94-01 engines had a wide ratio tranny.

89-93 was the exact same engine but with a closer ratio tranny.

Lots of people swap the 94+ WR tranny into the 89-93 engines so it helps to know what was done to the engine and there were actually some really nice aftermarket WR transmissions available at one point, most are long gone and snatched up but once in a blue moon one will pop up for sale here or there.

Dude these are the things that dreams are made of. I haven't had the time to properly look into all of this stuff but it's inspiring to hear about.
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Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
If it doesn't seem to be running right, I would look into the carb to see if it's the original size and type.

Pretty sure it's original carb and original bore and stroke and all that. I leafed through the file the PO gave me with the bike and it had a lot of info about previous owners and back and forth printed emails etc. My impression is that this bike bounced from one owner to the next because it was a lot of bike.


When I got my Derbi it had a much larger Mikuni Flatside on it, and the jetting wasn't even close. It was so rich in the midrange it wouldn't even run when it hit 1/2 throttle. I had to replace all the jets - the needle jet, jet needle, and Pilot jet, and Main jet.

If that's the correct carb I would confirm that all the jets are correct, and maybe replace them all with new of the original size so you have a good starting point. Sometimes people drill out the jets, so you don't always know if they are what they should be. Most likely you will need to re-jet, but starting from the original sizes would give you a good starting point for your tuning.

Be sure to run the same gas (ethanol-free if you can get it) and the same oil and ratio the entire time. Running in the 32:1 or 40:1 ratio isn't a bad idea, and even though it seems odd, more oil can give you more power (and more engine life as well).

Yep it's gonna take some work to get the jetting dialed. Good tip about people drilling out jets. I've done it myself and it can be really confusing if the jet is drilled out and performance doesn't correspond with the manufacturer jet size info stamped on the jet.

That bike should be a blast when you get it all dialed-in. Back in the day I had a CR125 and a RM125. My first street bike was a RD400, and then a RZ350. For sheer riding thrills, it's hard to beat the explosiveness of a good running 2-stroke coming on the pipe. I don't think you need to try to restrict it in any way, just keep your wrist in check!
Quote:
Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
Ghetto style: gorilla tape and sealant. Many many MTB tires have been run tubeless this way, it also works for dirt bikes.
I have come to the realization that the quickest way to get the small 'trainer' bike on the street is by simply ordering some tubes and slapping it all together.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaph42 View Post
But not for 17" supermoto wheels, that are ridden hard at least. The heat generated will cause the adhesive to degrade then the tape balls up and leaks. Very suddenly. If it happens while you are rolling, you're probably going down and grinding/denting your rims in the process.

For supermoto, my advice is to use tubes with spokes, use mag wheels (the newer Warp 9 mags are a good value), or the coolest but most expensive option, Alpina tubeless rims. Mmmm....

I don't have that much $$, I'm trying to recover from the holidays. Good tip, thanks and those rims are definitely... boner inspiring. The next phase is finding and ordering the appropriate tires for 17 * 3.50 rims on the 80, and some tubes so I don't have to deal with the 200+ hours of sealant application and curing time etc.

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I guess the flashing orange and black is to distract competitors.
Yeah they are great for the street because they create a strobe effect. Contrasting colors rapidly moving draw focus of the eye. I think part of the two-tone wheel phenomenon also had to do with motogp bikes and the sections of track where the 3000fps cameras were set up. The color pattern on the wheel helped the journalists calibrate the aperture and duration settings for the camera lenses.

They definitely are eye-catching wheels.
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Old January 19th, 2017, 11:07 PM   #96
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Pictures!

#1 -- it's here!

#2 -- and it's mine.

#3 -- happy friday 13

#4 -- one, two, four.

#5 -- decompression valve
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Old January 20th, 2017, 05:25 AM   #97
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^ Sweet! Can't see the carb in that one picture otherwise I could probably tell you what it is, the other pipe is blocking it.

Looks like the Expansion chamber pipe is cracked, it's fairly common with the pro circuit pipes. Just judging by what looks to be burnt 2t oil on the pipe.

Should be a fun bike, they are really easy to work on which is great, 500's don't have a power valve so that is one less thing to take apart/disconnect/clean ect...

Another nice thing is that as of a couple years ago there has been some nice aftermarket parts coming out here and there for the old 2 strokes.

One of my favorites is a cnc exhaust flange manifold that has the newer design with a few rubber orings to help seal it up at the jug expansion chamber junction. Way better than the original. Made my MSV racing.
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Old January 20th, 2017, 01:15 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by corksil View Post
Yeah they are great for the street because they create a strobe effect. Contrasting colors rapidly moving draw focus of the eye. I think part of the two-tone wheel phenomenon also had to do with motogp bikes and the sections of track where the 3000fps cameras were set up. The color pattern on the wheel helped the journalists calibrate the aperture and duration settings for the camera lenses.
Also they can calculate bike speed from wheel rotations and frame rate.
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Old January 20th, 2017, 09:29 PM   #99
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^ Sweet! Can't see the carb in that one picture otherwise I could probably tell you what it is, the other pipe is blocking it.

I'm pretty sure I have another picture of the carb. I'll look.

Looks like the Expansion chamber pipe is cracked, it's fairly common with the pro circuit pipes. Just judging by what looks to be burnt 2t oil on the pipe.

Yeah the pipe is cracked, and has a minor dent on the other side. Probably gonna need to be replaced. I also see a bunch of oil coming from behind the left side cover and dripping down the flywheel cover. Probably a failed crank seal.

Should be a fun bike, they are really easy to work on which is great, 500's don't have a power valve so that is one less thing to take apart/disconnect/clean ect...

Another nice thing is that as of a couple years ago there has been some nice aftermarket parts coming out here and there for the old 2 strokes.

One of my favorites is a cnc exhaust flange manifold that has the newer design with a few rubber orings to help seal it up at the jug expansion chamber junction. Way better than the original. Made my MSV racing.
Oh yeah. There are some beautiful parts available. I'll post some pics if I don't get distracted. CNC cases.. electric start parts.. 625/650 top end stroker kits.. These bikes have a cult following. The people who own them typically own several so R&D of what part works with what model year happens quickly.

I'm stoked that I scored an aluminum frame hybrid. 97 was the first year that the 250 had an aluminum frame and it's waaay over engineered in terms of strength. It should handle some serious flogging.

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Also they can calculate bike speed from wheel rotations and frame rate.
I always knew it had more to do with function than appearance. Good info, as always jim.
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Old January 20th, 2017, 09:39 PM   #100
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More pictures...

#1 -- is that a transmission case oil filler plug I see? The stripped out aluminum socket-head part with knurling on the sides.. Also note the dent in the kicker and the two bent over teeth on the peg.

#2 -- carb

#3 -- 491cc... and that's a cat hair, it's not a hairline fracture in the cylinder jug.

#4 -- crusty engine and frame. This machine is gonna take a bit of cleaning and work before it looks like the black one posted further up in the thread.

#5 -- 17 * 3.50 wheelset for the trainer bike. Not finished yet, waiting for parts.
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Old January 20th, 2017, 09:46 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by corksil View Post
#3 -- 491cc... and that's a cat hair, it's not a hairline fracture in the cylinder jug.
That's funny. A friend of mine makes reed kits for the old Kaw triples. Whenever I get parts from him they come covered in cat hair. If I mention it, he tells me there's no extra charge for the hair.
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Old January 20th, 2017, 09:47 PM   #102
corksil
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more pics..

#1 -- electric starter setup which is available but outside my price range.

#2 -- canadian company panthera

#3 -- people have done some wild things with these bikes.

#4 -- inspirational

#5 -- I don't even.... is that a snowmobile?
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File Type: png cr5estart2.png (416.1 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg cr500 cafe racer.jpg (34.2 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg cr500 cafe racer2.jpg (42.6 KB, 9 views)
File Type: jpg DSC05829.jpg (137.3 KB, 10 views)
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Old January 21st, 2017, 07:26 PM   #103
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Carb has the vertical Keihin lettering, It is a PJ carb, probably the original 38mm Keihin PJ

Not the most liked carb. They work but there are better. I have a 39mm pwk. Lots of people really like the 38mm keihin airstryker, (newer model)

Oil down the stator cover?? would have to come from above the cover, it probably blow off from the head pipe, or base cylinder gasket but probably the pipe.

I have my 500 engine completely stripped right now for a full rebuild, crank and all. I just sent my jug out to get bored. I hope they can clean up the cylinder with the available overbore.
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Old January 22nd, 2017, 09:15 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subxero View Post
Carb has the vertical Keihin lettering, It is a PJ carb, probably the original 38mm Keihin PJ

Not the most like carb. They work but there are better. I have a 39mm pwk. Lots of people really like the 38mm keihin airstryker, (newer model)

I'm using this thread as a working list of "things to look into" and this will be yet another one of them.

Oil down the stator cover?? would have to come from above the cover, it probably blow off from the head pipe, or base cylinder gasket but probably the pipe.

I had a brief look again today, looks like oil from the pipe which sprayed onto the jug and then recondensed and dripped down the side of the engine.

I have my 500 engine completely stripped right now for a full rebuild, crank and all. I just sent my jug out to get bored. I hope they can clean up the cylinder with the available overbore.
What do you have a 500 engine for? A kart/quad/something or is it for a cr500 bike as well? I'm pretty inspired by those two pictures I posted before the snowmobile thing. 90% of my riding is done on the street so it's tempting to convert this b!tch to a purpose built street machine seeing as it's got a title and plate.
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 05:54 AM   #105
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https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=255937

for get'in dirty. I have a far more interesting project for the street. Someday I might actually finish it Lack of progress can be seen here.

It is more of a funds issue than anything though

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=200016
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Old January 23rd, 2017, 10:44 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subxero View Post
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=255937

for get'in dirty. I have a far more interesting project for the street. Someday I might actually finish it Lack of progress can be seen here.

It is more of a funds issue than anything though

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=200016
Dang, that thing is a beast. I'm referring to the 350.. looks like fun.

As for the 500, I'll pm you about it. I've got a few questions.

Thanks for the help, wish I could spend more time on this project but I've got a lot going on with work at the moment.
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