Opinions please... 650R Rear Wheel Conversion

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Outside to outside, i.e. where the edge of the swingarm touches on each side. You could bypass purchasing calipers by using a couple of straight edges and measuring thru the wheel the distance between the straight edges. Of course, someone (Wife?) else would need to hold the straight edges in place, while you measure.

You probably should measure each individual component, bearings, etc.

I would lean more toward purchasing a 45T 650R sprocket, thus no filling and drilling. Also, buy the bearings mentioned that allow using the bearings without the sleeves....minor money.

Yeah I buying a new 650R sprocket too. Only thing is the options for the 650 are 43T or 46T. As of now I think I'll get the 46T. Your thoughts?

In the mean time I'll look for the bearings. Are you thinking the bushings are not the best idea?

Edited:Will these work? http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/produ...d-x-w-17x47x14

Sprocket: http://www.cheapcycleparts.com/produ...r-sprocket-46t

[dubojr1]

He mentioned nothing of having to buy the 650 spacers so shouldn't this be able to be completed without them. I can't measure a complete 650R assembly though with having all those parts.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Yeah I buying a new 650R sprocket too. Only thing is the options for the 650 are 43T or 46T. As of now I think I'll get the 46T. Your thoughts?

The taller rear tire will probably offset the difference in 45T vs 46T. Initially, I was thinking you should get the 43T, but since you're doing this more for "looks" maybe the 46T.

As you said, since you're not getting a complete wheel, the bearing to bearing outside measurement is what you should work with.

Yes, that is the correct bearing for fitting the 650R OD with the 250R ID!

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by g21-30

The taller rear tire will probably offset the difference in 45T vs 46T. Initially, I was thinking you should get the 43T, but since you're doing this more for "looks" maybe the 46T.

As you said, since you're not getting a complete wheel, the bearing to bearing outside measurement is what you should work with.

Yes, that is the correct bearing for fitting the 650R OD with the 250R ID!

Actually the 150/60 is just a tiny bit shorter. Would that change your mind on gearing? You can do a google search for gear commander and you'll find an excellent tool to help decide the best gearing. Thoughts?

[g21-30]

Yep, I knew about the gear cmdr. I think you should stick with the 46T, as the new wheel/tire will definitely be heavier. Hopefully, the 46T will offset some of the weight, so you don't loose much acceleration.

The "other" thread mentioned reducing the "hub" width on the 650R wheel.

Looks like you're committed to this project!

[dubojr1]

Yeah committed. What mention did you see on reducing wheel hub. I'm headed back to read again.

[dubojr1]

Most of the parts are in. Still waiting on the new sprocket, new bearings, and the new rear 150 tire.

[dubojr1]

Tires are in. New Bridgestone BT016's. 110/70 front, 150/60 rear. Still waiting on that darn sprocket.

Alex: could you add "650R Rear Wheel Conversion" or something fancy in the thread title. The "opinion" thing is kinda out now. Thanks a ton!

[bob138]

Just to be clear dimensions wise:

What is the width of the 650R rim between bearings with the sprocket carrier in?

What are the dimension of the sleeve inside the rim?

What is the distance between the swing arm arms where the axle mounts?

What are the OD of the stock bearings in the 650R rim and carrier?

Reason I ask is that many bikes have a similar axle diameter, so there could potentially be a sleeve and spacers, even bearings that might be stock for some other bike. That would cut down on machining costs.

It may be as easy as a mix and match set off bike bandit and done. Though I worry that the caliper carrier might be an issue still.

Bob

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by bob138

Just to be clear dimensions wise:

What is the width of the 650R rim between bearings with the sprocket carrier in?

What are the dimension of the sleeve inside the rim?

What is the distance between the swing arm arms where the axle mounts?

What are the OD of the stock bearings in the 650R rim and carrier?

Reason I ask is that many bikes have a similar axle diameter, so there could potentially be a sleeve and spacers, even bearings that might be stock for some other bike. That would cut down on machining costs.

It may be as easy as a mix and match set off bike bandit and done. Though I worry that the caliper carrier might be an issue still.

Bob

Use the Kawasaki parts diagram website for the bikes in question to determine part sizes. http://kawasaki.com/DefaultFrame.asp...OSEVEHICLE.ASP

It should give you the information you need to determine most lengths in question. Add bearings widths, sleeve and spacer widths.

Your thought would be appreciated. I will hopefully be starting this project in the next week.

[drumm3r9]

I have done the modification that you guys are talking about. Its kinda lengthy but pretty simple if you understand the components going into it. Problems such as alignment can be taken care of pretty easily. Although I use a 170 tire on mine the 650r rim will accept a 150-170 so you could go with 3 different sizes. All completely safe to run on a 4.5 650r rim. Let me know if you want details. I did this the exact same way that the other two guys (on the other forums) did this. I had good help from them.

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by drumm3r9

I have done the modification that you guys are talking about. Its kinda lengthy but pretty simple if you understand the components going into it. Problems such as alignment can be taken care of pretty easily. Although I use a 170 tire on mine the 650r rim will accept a 150-170 so you could go with 3 different sizes. All completely safe to run on a 4.5 650r rim. Let me know if you want details. I did this the exact same way that the other two guys (on the other forums) did this. I had good help from them.

Details would be awesome! We tried to get some from the other forums and g21-30 even tried to become a member with no luck. Pics would be cool too if you have any. Can you provide a list of what parts from what bike was used, any issues you came across, what parts are new vs machined, milling specs required for the caliper mount, etc.

[dubojr1]

Wait... you did the 170 rear right. There would of had to be swing arm mods right. This setup just requires a little machining and some new bushings. Everything will fit the swing-arm.

However 150/60 is maximum tire size.

[Alex]

/moved to tech.

[blong]

Originally Posted by drumm3r9

Let me know if you want details.

Yes please.

[drumm3r9]

Well the other guys on the forum didn't NEED to do the swingarm mod so if you don't feel like going above 150 your going to need
1. a 650r wheel WITH rotor, sprocket assembly (with dampers) the WORKS.
2. Machining of the bearings or buy new ones....I bought new ones I can look them up if you all please..
3. Machining of the "collars" to fit the 17mm 250r axle.
4. Machine a 250r sprocket to fit the 650r hub nut assembly
5. You will need a 150 tire as the 650r comes stock with a 160.
6. New chain if you plan on getting new sprockets....

NOTE on #4....I was told I HAD to machine a sprocket because the 650r is a 525 pitch sprocket and the 250r chain is a 520. Obviously this wouldn't work....however, I'm beginning to feel that information was a bit misleading....everywhere I have looked the 650r sprocket is a 520 pitch so it would fit the 250r chain. I have a sprocket on back order and when it gets in I'll let you know.

Thats pretty much all you need. This mod will give you a 4.5 inch rim and a 150 tire will actually LOOK larger and the pinch will be gone!!! I'll try to post some pics soon!

as far as the machining goes.....
1. The collars (2) need a bushing on the inside to REDUCE the 20mm hole (stock on the 650r wheel) to a 17mm hole (stock on the 250r axle)...this will allow the axle to fit very snug through the wheel assembly.
2. If you CHOOSE to get the bearing machined then you need to do the same thing. The ID is about 20mm which is fit for the 650. You will need a bushing in them both to get it down to 17mm.
3. If you feel like waiting til I get my sprocket I can tell you for sure the fitament. If you don't want to wait you need to get a new 250r sprocket. You need to fill the ENTIRE thing in. Face it off (make it smooth on the surface) then the holes need to be re-drilled for the 650r hub.

The easiest way to get all this down is take the parts to the machinist ALONG with the axle and hub. Tell him you need the collars (and bearings if chosen) to fit the axle and you need the sprocket to be filled in and cut to fit the hub. THATS PRETTY MUCH IT!....questions?????

[drumm3r9]

as far as the milling goes for the caliper....I didnt need to do anything to it for my mod. I'm not sure why the one guy on the other forum did it....It has worked fine stock for me...a couple washers for a real tight fit and it works on the 650r brake rotor fine. If you kept up with my 170 tire thread you would see I had problems with the brake pads...they weren't open enough...I needed to bleed um.

so prices.....
well EBAY EVERYTHING!!! except for the bearings...
1. 2006 650r rear wheel assembly...it had everything including a decent 160 tire....cost $165 FREE SHIPPING this came with collars hub rotor tire and wheel was in PERFECT condition just needed re-painting.
2. bearings from JC WHITNEY are about $6 a piece....I need to get the part number for you guys!!
3. sprockets and chain...depending on what you get varies
4. as far as a machinist....it depends where you go, how big your town is, how much of a "pud" you look like....it varies greatly by area....
I did my mod with swingarm modification for about 500 dollars. This included a brand new $150 tire......

[dubojr1]

Well the caliper mount needs to be modified in order to use stock 250R swing arm. I'm still measuring and deciding what exactly I want to do. I would like to mill the minimum amount off the caliper mount to maintain as much strength as possible. From what I can tell, 15mm is the number needing to be shaved from the assembly to make everything work. I see two options at this point.

1. mill the caliper mount 15mm solely or
2. move oil seal in 3mm closer to the bearing, shave 3mm off the collar closest to the caliper mount, and then mill 12mm off the caliper mount.

Modifying that collar is tricky though. It spaces the caliper away from the screw heads that mount the rotor to the wheel so changing it only makes those tolerances even closer.

650R sprocket is in fact a 520 pitch. I have ordered one and it should arrive Tuesday. Depending on it's color, I may have it powder-coated prior to installation.

The rear wheel I have is at the PC shop now getting PC'd gloss black to match my front wheel. Still working on the rim tape for the rear. Apparently Kawi painted the green accent on the 250R's wheels. Nothing but compliments on it locally but I'm not sure how to match it yet. The rim tape I see here locally is NOT a perfect match to the Kawi green.

I chose to order new bearings at first but after seeing everything coming together, I think I've decided to use the 650 bearings and add bushing instead. Let me see if I can explain why.... If you imagine the metal center to the bearing where the axle is fitted, this is reduced in circumference if you order new 17mm axle bearings. The problem with this the "pipe" that in the middle of the 2 bearings of the 650 wheels is larger in circumference because it is fitted to a 20mm axle. When you bring the "pipe" together to the new 17mm bearings the O.D. of the pipe is larger than the O.D of the bearings center metal piece. My concern here is once the assembly is all together and everything is torqued to specs, that the bearing is making minimal metal to metal contact for strength. Solution to all this is to use the 650 bearings and add bushings to all parts as needed to fit the 17mm axle. This means metal to metal contact is maintained for bushing to bushings and the center pieces of the bearings to the "pipe" at all times for maximum strength. Hope this make sense. I can provide pics if needed. I can also provide part #'s for the new 17mm bearings if anyone would like it. I chose to go with ALL BALLS bearings supplied by Cheapcycleparts.com being I heard these bearings are top notch.

If all goes well I'll be having my parts milled today and hopefully ready in the next day or so. Caliper mount will then need to go to the PC shop to be done in flat black.

I do have one concern at this stage. I'm still up in the air if the rear tire's center will follow the front tire's center going down the road. Everything appears centered to the bike in all the pictures I've came across. I've seen nothing factual that this is true though. What negative effects would this have if lets say the rear tire rides straight but maybe offsetted 1/4-1/2 inch to the right of the front center path? I have attached a pic for visual help.

[dubojr1]

Here is some additional information. First & second pics are setups that appear straight and centered. The third is the original pic I worked with to make the fourth pic. The fourth pic shows my concern somewhat. I have tried to align the center of the chain (indicated with the yellow line) with where I assume the center of the sprocket and chain would have been on the 250 wheel. Then I drew an orange line indicating approx. center of the 650 wheel followed by an approx. center of the 250 wheel indicated with a green line. I realize the drawing is not perfect but the red circle shows where my concern is. It would "appear" that the 650 wheel would in fact be offset to the right which means the tire center (once mounted) would also be offset to the right.

Thoughts please! I'm I over-thinking this before it all comes together?

[drumm3r9]

I see what your talking about as far as the caliper goes. It will need to be modified to squeeze it in the stock swingarm.

I have the same problem your worrying about when it comes to the "center mass" of the new rim. I aligned the chain and axles and all.....after a ride it seemed all is good but I'm not sure about this. Reps for putting it into words though because I couldn't!! A tip too on aligning the sprockets/chain.....if you need, trim a little out of the cush drive inside the hub.....the hub and sprocket will fit deeper into the wheel this way and it can take care of alignment issues. I didn't have to do that with mine though......

[dubojr1]

I used a micrometer to measure from the swingarm to the sprocket with the 650 wheel in place. Seems to be identical to the 250R measurement as long as you use the 650 collar that I got with the cush hub. Just need to add a bushing to it too. No biggie. You can see it partially in the pics I posted above.

Do you know how much could be milled out of the hub before it effects the cush drive assembly? Any distance gained here could fix that offset concern I have.

[drumm3r9]

Not sure about the hub milling......you can just cut the little knobs off the bottom of each cush and it will sink down more into the wheel...causing the hub to do the same.

[dubojr1]

I'll keep that in mind after assembly. maybe it can be useful to correct any off-set.

[drumm3r9]

I think you know what your talking about and your making all the right calculations to make this thing go right.....I was thinking about compiling information from my experience, as well as others and making a DIY because I get PM's all the time asking how to do it....not sure if its a good idea though.

[blong]

Any feel for what the weight difference is between the 250/650 wheels?

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by blong

Any feel for what the weight difference is between the 250/650 wheels?

I want to weigh the whole assemblies together to keep everything equal. I'm still waiting on my sprocket and my wheel to come back from powder-coat. Once I have both wheel assemblies together including wheel, tire, cush hub, sprocket, and rotor.... then I will weigh them to determine the amount of weight gained.

Sound good?

[drumm3r9]

Originally Posted by blong

Any feel for what the weight difference is between the 250/650 wheels?

Not sure how big the difference is but just lifting both you can tell that the 650r wheel is quite a bit heavier..(More mass)..of course wheel size also plays a factor

[dubojr1]

Originally Posted by drumm3r9

Not sure how big the difference is but just lifting both you can tell that the 650r wheel is quite a bit heavier..(More mass)..of course wheel size also plays a factor

I'm actually predicting the weight difference will not be substantial. The larger tire will weigh more as will the wheel but we will have to "weight" (small joke) and see.

[drumm3r9]

hahaha no pun intended right? I think the reason mine was more noticeably heavy is due to the fact of the larger tire I have. The rim itself was nearly the same weight (if I remember correctly) but the tire weighed me down.

[supermanster]

Originally Posted by drumm3r9

I think you know what your talking about and your making all the right calculations to make this thing go right.....I was thinking about compiling information from my experience, as well as others and making a DIY because I get PM's all the time asking how to do it....not sure if its a good idea though.

[supermanster]

Greetings! Im also intrested on this DIY. And I would like to thank you all first for all the information being shared here at the forum. Anyways I would like to know all the parts to be used in this project and also the parts to be machined. Here is what I gathered so far.

Items to be used:

1. Ex650/Ninja650/Er6 Rear Wheel which is 17 x 4.5
2. Rear rotor
3. Rear Sprocket and Hub with rubber dampers
4. Bearings ( I dont know what size and which is the easier method )
5. 250r caliper holder which is to be shaved to be thinner.

Questions:

1. What part/parts is needed to me machined?
2. Do we need to have a new spacers/bushings?

Kindly enlighten us.

Thanks again and ride safely.

[drumm3r9]

Originally Posted by supermanster

Items to be used:

1. Ex650/Ninja650/Er6 Rear Wheel which is 17 x 4.5
2. Rear rotor
3. Rear Sprocket and Hub with rubber dampers
4. Bearings ( I dont know what size and which is the easier method )
5. 250r caliper holder which is to be shaved to be thinner.

Questions:

1. What part/parts is needed to me machined?
2. Do we need to have a new spacers/bushings?

1. ex650r wheel. I used a 2006
2. Rear rotor of a 2006 ex650r wheel
3. sprocket, hub, and dampers for a 2006 ex650r wheel.
4.Just get some stock 2006 ex650r bearings and have a machinist put bushings in. (easy)
5. Caliper milling is only needed if you are NOT widening the swingarm. If the swing arm will be modified (widened) then the caliper fits just fine. I didn't need caliper milling so you will need to find that one out on your own.

I BOUGHT MY ENTIRE WHEEL ASSEMBLY ON EBAY FOR $155 SHIPPED. IT CAME WITH 1,2 AND 3 ABOVE. IT IS EASIER AND LESS EXPENSIVE.

to answer your questions
1. The things that need to be machined are the
A. bearings (unless you buy new ones)
B.the two "collars" from the 650r wheel. If you get a COMPLETE wheel assembly with tire, hub, rotor etc it will come with these. If not you need to order them OEM.

THE ONLY REASON THEY NEED MACHINED IS TO REDUCE INSIDE DIAMETER FROM 20 MM (stock on 650r) TO 17MM (stock on 250r). Tell him you need some bushings to reduce the inner diameter to match your axle. Just bring the axle along with the parts to him and tell him to fit the two.

2. what do you mean by spacers? are you talking about the inside of the wheel? If so the "spacers" are the "collars" i talked about above in B.

If you are widening the swing arm you will also need to get some washers for correct spacing. Anyone shoot me a PM and we can talk more about the washers I'm still doing trial and error on mine. You also need a new axle if you are widening the swingarm. More goes into that modification as well. PM me for that info.

[supermanster]

Originally Posted by drumm3r9

1. ex650r wheel. I used a 2006
2. Rear rotor of a 2006 ex650r wheel
3. sprocket, hub, and dampers for a 2006 ex650r wheel.
4.Just get some stock 2006 ex650r bearings and have a machinist put bushings in. (easy)
5. Caliper milling is only needed if you are NOT widening the swingarm. If the swing arm will be modified (widened) then the caliper fits just fine. I didn't need caliper milling so you will need to find that one out on your own.

I BOUGHT MY ENTIRE WHEEL ASSEMBLY ON EBAY FOR $155 SHIPPED. IT CAME WITH 1,2 AND 3 ABOVE. IT IS EASIER AND LESS EXPENSIVE.

to answer your questions
1. The things that need to be machined are the
A. bearings (unless you buy new ones)
B.the two "collars" from the 650r wheel. If you get a COMPLETE wheel assembly with tire, hub, rotor etc it will come with these. If not you need to order them OEM.

THE ONLY REASON THEY NEED MACHINED IS TO REDUCE INSIDE DIAMETER FROM 20 MM (stock on 650r) TO 17MM (stock on 250r). Tell him you need some bushings to reduce the inner diameter to match your axle. Just bring the axle along with the parts to him and tell him to fit the two.

2. what do you mean by spacers? are you talking about the inside of the wheel? If so the "spacers" are the "collars" i talked about above in B.

If you are widening the swing arm you will also need to get some washers for correct spacing. Anyone shoot me a PM and we can talk more about the washers I'm still doing trial and error on mine. You also need a new axle if you are widening the swingarm. More goes into that modification as well. PM me for that info.

Thank you so much for the information. I really appreciate it. Im not going to widen the swing arm for this project.

How about the sprocket hub, is it going to be machined as well? I already ordered a 2006 650r rear wheel set including wheel, rotor, sprocket still intact together, I hope the collars too are intact.

Im expecting it to arrive 1 month from now and Im already preparing all the neccessary things to be needed.

What did you do about the caliper holder? Did you do it just like the one on Thai website?

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by drumm3r9

to answer your questions
1. The things that need to be machined are the
A. bearings (unless you buy new ones)
B.the two "collars" from the 650r wheel. If you get a COMPLETE wheel assembly with tire, hub, rotor etc it will come with these. If not you need to order them OEM.

THE ONLY REASON THEY NEED MACHINED IS TO REDUCE INSIDE DIAMETER FROM 20 MM (stock on 650r) TO 17MM (stock on 250r). Tell him you need some bushings to reduce the inner diameter to match your axle. Just bring the axle along with the parts to him and tell him to fit the two.

Many people will misunderstand when you say the bearings need to be MACHINED. It is not possible to reduce a 20MM diameter bearing by machining it; however, as you stated, you can insert the appropriately sized bushing, which will reduce the inside diameter. Or, you can just buy the ready made bearings that have the same OD (of the 650R) and ID (of the 250R)!

[supermanster]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Many people will misunderstand when you say the bearings need to be MACHINED. It is not possible to reduce a 20MM diameter bearing by machining it; however, as you stated, you can insert the appropriately sized bushing, which will reduce the inside diameter. Or, you can just buy the ready made bearings that have the same OD (of the 650R) and ID (of the 250R)!

Thanks for this information as well. I will try to find if there are bearing available locally which has 20mm od and 17mm ID.

Does the HUb need to me machined as well?

[bob138]

Originally Posted by supermanster

Thanks for this information as well. I will try to find if there are bearing available locally which has 20mm od and 17mm ID.

Does the HUb need to me machined as well?

The bearings you are looking for are not 20mm od. Someone should be able to tell you what OD you need.

Bob

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by bob138

The bearings you are looking for are not 20mm od. Someone should be able to tell you what OD you need.

Bob

See Post #10. It has an external link, which gives the OEM bearing part numbers needed for the bearing.

[dubojr1]

Ok guys. I've been trying to make this project work out. Couple other things I have learned.

1. Stock chain is not long enough for 15/46 gearing which is what I calculated to be the best gearing at the time. I'm now considering 14/43 which results in almost the same gearing ratio but requires a shorter chain. I'm hoping this will work but I still need to determine if changing the gearing for the chain length will work or if a NEW chain will be needed.

2. The tire once installed does appear to be offset to the right. The only resolution I see for this is to machine the inside of the cush hub to allow the tire to slide left more and closer to center. This means that the hub will also sit deeper in the wheel and some minor work may need to be done to the wheel also. I want to put research in to see if the 09 hub I am using is any different to previous years. It was my understanding originally that no hub work would be required.The sprockets seem to align properly so the cush hub spacer will need to be reduced in length and the inner rubber pieces have little rubber "****" that will need to be removed.

Anyone else made it to this stage?

BTW...If the tire is moved left any more, it will hit the chain guard and a solution for that will be required. Not sure how a hugger will work out yet either with this big wheel project.

[drumm3r9]

the sportisi hugger WILL work. I have a sportisi on my 170 tire and widened swingarm.

You should not have to mill the hub....yes it will set deeper but you can accomplish the same thing by trimming some of the rubber off the dampers. That is what I ended up doing this weekend and it worked perfectly. My project is now done and all is well! that big tire takes ALOT of getting used to. I have a 15/43 sprocket combo. I bought a 120 link 520 chain and just cut it down to size....I think I ended up going 112 or 114 cant remember.

As far as the bearings I can see where there would be a misunderstanding....thanks for pointing that out! It is possible to get the correct ID/OD combo to fit the 650r wheel and 250r axle. That is what I used and it works fine....I just cant remember the part number that it was on jcwhitney.com

I used an 06 hub so I'm not sure about the 09 hub.....

[drumm3r9]

So the tire needs to be moved to the left? whats the alignment with the sprockets look like? the chain? If it needs to be moved to the left a couple washers next to the caliper might influence it a BIT...... I didn't have this problem though so I'm puzzled.