What's Your Emergency Braking Method?

[akima]

Imagine that you've already decided you're to brake really, really hard to try and avoid a collision (so forget about other options like steering). What do you do? Answer the poll above.
This poll assumes that you're riding a sports bike (that includes the ninjette!) and that you're on a dry, asphalt road.

Note: If you're going to discuss/debate braking methods outlined in the poll, please be respectful of other people's opinions. I've heard plenty of good arguments for front only and for combined braking. I've seen some discussions about emergency braking get heated! Take it easy!

[dubojr1]

If your back tire is touching the ground and your not using the rear brake, your wasting precious time and limited footage.

[Jono]

You need to just lay down the bike in an emergency. It is the much better choice.

[Miles_Prower]

no brakes, all prayers lol
I've been practicing using front and rear brakes, so far so good, but in a panic situation, I hope I don't lock up. I wonder if it's possible to train enough to make it muscle memory so that chances of lock up are reduced.

[alex.s]

i put front brake only but thats not exactly right. i do front brake + engine braking. you know you are doing it right when the rear wheel slides around a bit

[FrugalNinja250]

You need another poll:

How many people actually practice braking hard enough to cause an impending stoppie? And practice it enough to do it reliably? By instinct?

All the ones that answer "no" will probably crash when they use only their front brake in an emergency situation..

[alex.s]

you arent doing it right if you arent in impending doom.

[Seananniganss]

How the heck would you lay the bike down if your going straight?

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Seananniganss

How the heck would you lay the bike down if your going straight?

looping a wheelie... looping a stoppie... locked wheels... oil on the road... sudden loss of consciousness... jumping off the bike... maybe?

[akima]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

You need another poll:

How many people actually practice braking hard enough to cause an impending stoppie? And practice it enough to do it reliably? By instinct?

That's a false dilemma. You've implied that you need to be able to be on the verge of a stoppie in order to justify front-only braking. In the following scenario, that level of front-braking skill is unnecessary:

Rider needs to brake hard to avoid a collision. They have enough distance between themselves and the object that perfect, impending-stoppie level braking isn't required. They still need to perform a very quick stop though. They apply the front brake hard using only 75% of the stopping force available to them using only the front brake. They stop in time before hitting the object.

Note in the above (extremely plausible) scenario, despite the riders lack of ability to use all the braking force available from the front brake, the rider did not hit the object. It was still classified as an emergency braking situation.

In the above scenario, had the unpracticed rider opted to also use the rear brake he could have lost the rear end and high/low sided. Had he opted to use the rear brake in the above scenario he would have created that extra risk for no extra gain.

Sure, there could be a scenario where his lack of braking practice would mean the stopping-force provided only by the front brake was not enough and he needed that extra bit of rear braking force in order to stop in time, but then I'd like to point out:
* To use the rear brake effectively (without locking up or without locking up and crashing) you also need to practice - if you're going to practice hard braking then the ideal is braking so hard on the front that the rear end is on the "verge of a stoppie". Which as I understand it will slow a typical sports bike faster than if you keep the rear wheel on the ground and you also use the rear brake.
* I believe that it's easier to concentrate on one brake and make the most of it than it is to concentrate on two brakes. I think that even a well-practised rider doesn't have much scope to improve his concentration during every ride. Therefore, even if he can do an emergency stop using both brakes while practicing in a controlled environment... on the road, after a day of work his concentration could be lower and all his practice might count for nothing. I didn't explain that last point very well lol! Hopefully you understand what I'm trying to say.

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

All the ones that answer "no" will probably crash when they use only their front brake in an emergency situation..

That's not a reasonable argument against front-only braking as the exact same claim can be made against dual-braking, i.e. all the people who don't practice front and rear braking will probably crash when also using the rear brake in an emergency situation on account of locking up the rear end and either low siding or releasing the rear brake while the tail is off-centre and then high siding.

That's just my thoughts.

[akima]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i put front brake only but thats not exactly right. i do front brake + engine braking. you know you are doing it right when the rear wheel slides around a bit

You shoulda put "other" dummy! Though in actuality I do the same as you. I perform heavy front braking with engine braking. At some point (when the front brake is on hard enough) I whip-in the clutch lever to take away the engine braking. This is partly so I don't stall when I come to a complete stop and partly so in the off-chance I nearly do a stoppie, the engine braking isn't enough to cause the rear to slide out. Mainly for the former point though, as I'm not actually sure if the latter scenario would happen.

[Whiskey]

Front, rear, roll off & depending on the situation drop a gear.

Just wondering what sort of millage are people getting from their front pads... I put up just under 3000 miles since I did them (done at 17,700 bike now has about 20,350 miles) and I think they're due a change again...

[alex.s]

i get about 6 or 7k miles from my ebc HHs

[Soujyu]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

Front, rear, roll off & depending on the situation drop a gear.

Just wondering what sort of millage are people getting from their front pads... I put up just under 3000 miles since I did them (done at 17,700 bike now has about 20,350 miles) and I think they're due a change again...

I tend to really wreck havoc on my rear pads more than my front, but I've got almost 9000 miles with the Vesrah brake pads I put in, and I've still got a good 3mm left of pad on the front.

[Francis]

I try to brake only with my front when I'm about to hit the corners, because I was told on the track, only front brake is used so I want to practice.

But sometimes, when just riding, I'll use the rear as well. For emergency, I tend to use both front and rear.

I do practice my hard braking at the lot or whenever I'm the only one on the highway/backroad, but I only practice the front. I guess I should practice the front+rear as well.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by alex.s

i put front brake only but thats not exactly right. i do front brake + engine braking. you know you are doing it right when the rear wheel slides around a bit

+ Juan

Downshift = engine braking


And if that's not enough and I'm about to hit said obstacle I release brakes and maneuver/flick bike to avoid said obstacle. This happened to me a couple years back on the freeway when two cars collided in front of me as I was sharing lanes and one of those cars were directly in my path.

Gotta thank God first, and if it wasn't for all those times on the track improving my riding skillz I would not have pulled that off. That move looked like something straight out of a movie.

[akima]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

+ Juan

Downshift = engine braking


And if that's not enough and I'm about to hit said obstacle I release brakes and maneuver/flick bike to avoid said obstacle. This happened to me a couple years back on the freeway when two cars collided in front of me as I was sharing lanes and one of those cars were directly in my path.

Gotta thank God first, and if it wasn't for all those times on the track improving my riding skillz I would not have pulled that off. That move looked like something straight out of a movie.

More detail! I want to know exactly what happened!

[Scattcatt]

Reading the posts about the maximum braking being an impending stoppie got me thinking...

What exactly happens when braking with the front extremely hard? In particular to the center of gravity? The front forks will compress which should lower the CG, the rider likely will shift somewhat forward which moves the CG closer to the front wheel fulcrum, your gas and fluids more than likely have a negligible effect but for argument sake I'll include them too which further pushes the CG forward, and the tail end comes up which moves the CG upward.

Thinking about this, it almost seems like you may be worse off if you're right on the verge of a stoppie at 99% braking force (relative to the rear wheel lifting off the ground, NOT relative to what the brakes are capable of) your overall CG angle to the fulcrum might be higher than if you were at 98% or 97% braking force to a stoppie which would mean your stopping distance would actually increase slightly.

Anyone else follow my logic? It would really depend a lot on the particulars of the situation and motorcycle since I have no doubt that there are plenty of motorcycles out there that 99% force in the front is the way to go, but for a bike and situation making a stoppie possible, I feel that being 99% on the verge of stoppie would hurt stopping distance.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by Scattcatt

Reading the posts about the maximum braking being an impending stoppie got me thinking...

What exactly happens when braking with the front extremely hard? In particular to the center of gravity? The front forks will compress which should lower the CG, the rider likely will shift somewhat forward which moves the CG closer to the front wheel fulcrum, your gas and fluids more than likely have a negligible effect but for argument sake I'll include them too which further pushes the CG forward, and the tail end comes up which moves the CG upward.

Thinking about this, it almost seems like you may be worse off if you're right on the verge of a stoppie at 99% braking force (relative to the rear wheel lifting off the ground, NOT relative to what the brakes are capable of) your overall CG angle to the fulcrum might be higher than if you were at 98% or 97% braking force to a stoppie which would mean your stopping distance would actually increase slightly.

Anyone else follow my logic? It would really depend a lot on the particulars of the situation and motorcycle since I have no doubt that there are plenty of motorcycles out there that 99% force in the front is the way to go, but for a bike and situation making a stoppie possible, I feel that being 99% on the verge of stoppie would hurt stopping distance.

which is why we say on the *verge* of a stoppie. once the wheel goes up, you loose like 20% of your stopping ability. and once you let it go too far, you loose all your stopping ability because you are tumbling on the ground next to your bike

[Scattcatt]

Originally Posted by alex.s

which is why we say on the *verge* of a stoppie. once the wheel goes up, you loose like 20% of your stopping ability. and once you let it go too far, you loose all your stopping ability because you are tumbling on the ground next to your bike

I got that much, but I'm wondering if your braking distance begins to increase even before your rear tire ever leaves the ground.

[alex.s]

just guessing from experience but i dont think it goes down any noticable amount until the wheel actually lifts off the ground... seems like the highest braking force you can apply is right before the wheel lifts as it starts to slide around

[Motofool]

Front only here, for emergency and regular braking.

Copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle...cycle_dynamics

Braking

Most of the braking force of standard upright bikes comes from the front wheel. As the analysis above shows, if the brakes themselves are strong enough, the rear wheel is easy to skid, while the front wheel often can generate enough stopping force to flip the rider and bike over the front wheel. This is called a stoppie if the rear wheel is lifted but the bike does not flip, or an endo (abbreviated form of end-over-end) if the bike flips. On long or low bikes, however, such as cruiser motorcycles and recumbent bicycles, the front tire will skid instead, possibly causing a loss of balance.
In the case of a front suspension, especially telescoping fork tubes, the increase in downward force on the front wheel during braking may cause the suspension to compress and the front end to lower. This is known as brake diving. A riding technique that takes advantage of how braking increases the downward force on the front wheel is known as trail braking.

Front wheel braking
The limiting factors on the maximum deceleration in front wheel braking are:
1) The maximum, limiting value of static friction between the tire and the ground, often between 0.5 and 0.8 for rubber on dry asphalt,
2) The kinetic friction between the brake pads and the rim or disk, and
3) Pitching or looping (of bike and rider) over the front wheel.
For an upright bicycle on dry asphalt with excellent brakes, pitching will probably be the limiting factor. The combined center of mass of a typical upright bicycle and rider will be about 60 cm (24 in) back from the front wheel contact patch and 120 cm (47 in) above, allowing a maximum deceleration of 0.5 g (5 m/s2 or 16 ft/s2). If the rider modulates the brakes properly, however, pitching can be avoided. If the rider moves his weight back and down, even larger decelerations are possible.
Front brakes on many inexpensive bikes are not strong enough so, on the road, they are the limiting factor. Cheap cantilever brakes, especially with "power modulators", and Raleigh-style side-pull brakes severely restrict the stopping force. In wet conditions they are even less effective. Front wheel slides are more common off-road. Mud, water, and loose stones reduce the friction between the tire and trail, although knobby tires can mitigate this effect by grabbing the surface irregularities. Front wheel slides are also common on corners, whether on road or off. Centripetal acceleration adds to the forces on the tire-ground contact, and when the friction force is exceeded the wheel slides.

Rear-wheel braking
The rear brake of an upright bicycle can only produce about 0.1 g (1 m/s2) deceleration at best, because of the decrease in normal force at the rear wheel as described above. All bikes with only rear braking are subject to this limitation: for example, bikes with only a coaster brake, and fixed-gear bikes with no other braking mechanism. There are, however, situations that may warrant rear wheel braking:
1) Slippery surfaces or bumpy surfaces. Under front wheel braking, the lower coefficient of friction may cause the front wheel to skid which often results in a loss of balance.
2) Front flat tire. Braking a wheel with a flat tire can cause the tire to come off the rim which greatly reduces friction and, in the case of a front wheel, result in a loss of balance.
3) Front brake failure.

[alex.s]

^-- fantastic.

[Motofool]

Some more:

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=029&Set=

http://www.msgroup.org/articles.aspx?Cat=2

[akima]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Some more:

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=029&Set=

http://www.msgroup.org/articles.aspx?Cat=2

This article was good too:
Taper Braking

It suggests using the rear brake for a short while at the beginning of the emergency stop, then switching to front only as you've gradually achieved more front braking force and front suspension compression.

[Motofool]

http://www.dinamoto.it/dinamoto/8_on...ing_new.htm#A2

[loz944]

Originally Posted by Jono

You need to just lay down the bike in an emergency. It is the much better choice.

Ok that is a very old school method when brakes and tires were crap

on todays bikes tires have a hell of a lot more traction than sliding metal and plastic keep the rubber down

[Alex]

[loz944]

LOL ^^ yeah maybe but I have heard many a story from old school riders saying lay the bike down ...............I had a friend do the just that a few months back and he is in his late 50's when i asked him why he didn't just brake he said its what he was taught when he took his test many years ago (the guy is from the states) .

My Father even talks about it as an acceptable way of avoiding a collision when he rode bikes 50 or so years back Norton's ,Greeves etc

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by FrugalNinja250

You need another poll:

How many people actually practice braking hard enough to cause an impending stoppie? And practice it enough to do it reliably? By instinct?

All the ones that answer "no" will probably crash when they use only their front brake in an emergency situation..

I practice it every time I leave the driveway. Pull off on a nearby side road and crank off a good one with no traffic. It's fun and I'd like my first instinct to be the right instinct.

__________

My e-braking is 'other'.

I was taught to use all fours, clutch, downshift, front and rear brake. All at the same time, all as a progressive action, not a jam-on like a switch.
Seems to work for me, never lock and never slide. The bike tends to squat when I pull it off pefectly, no stoppie feeling at all. My body wants to fly forward but the bike seems to hunch down on the road in a real hurry!

I have yet to try it at 100kph, still easing up to trying it at freeway speed. Maybe will save that for the track. Fastest e-brake was at about 80KPH??

The instructors told us that if you have to 'lay it down', you're going too fast for the conditions - if the road conditions are perfect then the 'condition' is speed. If the people racing stock ninjas can do it in a very, very short distance, then it follows that we all have the ability to brake like that, we just need to practice until it's part of our riding. May save our arses some day.

Ride safe

[Linuss]

Last year, I was riding home from work going along I-20 in Dallas in the far left lane, a good distance from the SUV infront of me, traffic in the lane going about 70. A semi to the SUVs right started drifting in to our lane while at the same time hitting his brakes. The SUV quickly went off in to the median and I hit both front and rear brakes. My rear started wobbling and all that was going through my head was "Oh crap, I'm going to highside and the car behind me will run me over".

Luckily, I stuck with what I was taught and stayed on the rear brake till I was stopped, and I avoided running in to the semi in front.



Moral of the story? Use both. You'll stop in a shorter distance.




Having said that, I really want a bike with ABS.

[hybridkid]

Today, while driving into dc, a taxi stopped abruptly to let pedestrians cross on green. Usually I don't have a problem stopping but I had a difficult time biting and of course, my bike locked up from pressing the rear brake too hard.... I managed to not panic and steer in between cars only grazing his car with my backpack.... Of course I have this all recorded.... I think if the rear is used right it can help but it's tough to determine how much without practice. Practice helped me greatly today by looking where I wanted to go

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by hybridkid

Today, while driving into dc, a taxi stopped abruptly to let pedestrians cross on green. Usually I don't have a problem stopping but I had a difficult time biting and of course, my bike locked up from pressing the rear brake too hard.... I managed to not panic and steer in between cars only grazing his car with my backpack.... Of course I have this all recorded.... I think if the rear is used right it can help but it's tough to determine how much without practice. Practice helped me greatly today by looking where I wanted to go

Says it all right there. It's tough to be really good at anything without practice, motogp riders and F1 racers practice so it shouldn't be above any of us mere mortals

Nice job with looking where you want to go! Works eh? Just remember that it works the other way too - target fixation, same principle, you'll go where you look.
Tonight I practiced a few minutes of tight turns but wasn't feeling it in the parking lot, want to get better at my lefts.

[Skippii]

Originally Posted by Seananniganss

How the heck would you lay the bike down if your going straight?

I'm not entirely sure, but it does happen...One second I'm going straight on the bike, the next I'm going straight next to the bike...then I'm in hospital.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Linuss

The SUV quickly went off in to the median and I hit both front and rear brakes. My rear started wobbling and all that was going through my head was "Oh crap, I'm going to highside and the car behind me will run me over".

Luckily, I stuck with what I was taught and stayed on the rear brake till I was stopped, and I avoided running in to the semi in front.

Moral of the story? Use both. You'll stop in a shorter distance.

I have a different take on that moral. If you locked the rear wheel, it was doing nothing to help you stop shorter. Keeping it locked allowed you to more easily control the bike's attitude as you were slowing. But it did nothing to shorten the distance. The best guess is that it's unlikely you were braking at maximum capability of the front, only because it takes a certain amount of necessary concentration to manage the sliding rear wheel while continuing to manage optimal brake pressure on the front.

Quickest stop is using as much front as the road surface, tires, and brake components allow, and if the rear is still on the ground, then enough rear to add a bit of slowing, without bringing it to lockup.

[Liist]

I actually locked up my rear braking at a yellow light I should have ran on Friday. I try not to use the rear for hard braking but I always seem to stomp my foot down a tad too hard if I'm truly caught off guard.

Really, try to anticipate when you might need to apply the brakes hard and you're less likely to stomp your right foot down too hard

[250rr]

I practice using front brake only. Rear brake practice on occasion for when it's slick (wet leaves). Makes sense to me based upon what Alex and other experienced riders have said on this site.

Keep in mind I'm well aware other experienced riders advocate front and rear braking. And many on ninjette. I'm just basing this on what makes sense to me, which is a highly dubious standard!

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Liist

.........Really, try to anticipate when you might need to apply the brakes hard and you're less likely to stomp your right foot down too hard

If rear brake usage is your daily practice, in a real emergency, your foot is going to press that lever with one ton of force; that I can assure.

The problem with real emergencies is that your sub-conscious mind thinks, calculates, reacts and commands the controls ten times faster than your regular brain can.

Our software is programmed to do that survival reaction without consulting our will.
That reaction is always what you are accustomed to do in a daily basis.

As Alex explained above, the dilemma is that, the harder you try to stop, the less effective the rear tire becomes as it tries to levitate.

Free of the rear tire friction against the pavement, the CG is crazily trying to move sideways ahead of the front tire's patch were all the resistance to inertia is happening.

[hybridkid]

Originally Posted by Firehorse

Says it all right there. It's tough to be really good at anything without practice, motogp riders and F1 racers practice so it shouldn't be above any of us mere mortals

Nice job with looking where you want to go! Works eh? Just remember that it works the other way too - target fixation, same principle, you'll go where you look.
Tonight I practiced a few minutes of tight turns but wasn't feeling it in the parking lot, want to get better at my lefts.

Here is what it looked like for me:

http://player.vimeo.com/video/42588852

[ai4px]

Originally Posted by Miles_Prower

no brakes, all prayers lol
I've been practicing using front and rear brakes, so far so good, but in a panic situation, I hope I don't lock up. I wonder if it's possible to train enough to make it muscle memory so that chances of lock up are reduced.

I tried the "all prayer" method of birth control and two kids later, found a better way. I'm thinking right hand and right foot will be busy during a stop with no time for prayer.... added bonus... after the stopping is over, you will have plenty of time to pray later or just meet The Man in person.