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Old August 23rd, 2017, 07:37 AM   #1
adouglas
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Getting faster and the mental budget

So I'm certainly not the fastest guy out there, and tend to ride conservatively. I'm making steady, albeit slow, progress with my pace. Another successful weekend in the books, and I upped it another notch. Felt very comfortable.

https://www.facebook.com/tonystrackd...5555178333286/

As I've gotten faster, I've found that the character of my thought process on the track has changed.

More and more, it's about the track... bike placement, hitting marks with precision, planning ahead. "I know I can go faster through here...."

Less and less, it's about riding the bike... reacting to things that don't feel right, braking hard without running off, trying to make it through the corner faster, consciously relaxing. "Can I go faster through here? I don't know... it's on the verge of pushing the SR button."

I'm a big believer in the idea of riding at 75-80%, so that you have mental bandwidth to deal with anything unexpected. What I see happening is that less and less of the mental/skill budget has to go to the fundamentals, leaving more available for managing the bike's trajectory around the track.

In effect, that 75-80% represents a bigger budget. The limits are rising, so what you can accomplish within that budget increases.

Anyone else experienced this?
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 07:52 AM   #2
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I totally get that! My first couple months on track, it was all about panicky survival on edge. Don't crash!! Turn-in faster! Whoops missed that apex! Brake harder, OMG you're gonna crash!!!

Then I slowed down and focused on being more precise and consistent. Hit those brake markers every time. Hit every apex just right. It became less of wielding an axe and more about using a scalpel. Suddenly time slowed down and I had more time to set up each corner with connecting the dots just right. Suddenly, I was going faster!! Wow!!!

Now I'm working on fine-tuning, a 6" adjustment here and there. It's quite a challenge and exciting!
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 09:10 AM   #3
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Kenny Roberts has said he could run at 100% for maybe 3 laps tops, so he was running the majority of the race at a comfortable mental pace (for him).

Relating to what you mentioned, I've heard that you have only so much mental concentration to "spend", and how/where you spend it (the majority of your focus on the bike, or the track, or the fuel, or whatever) make all the difference.

Reducing your focus in one area helps free-up mental energy that can be better used in other areas.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 02:55 PM   #4
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i would agree, but at some point you have to raise your comfort level. not riding over your head but riding above your comfort , thats where progress is also made. and pretty soon what was uncomfortable becomes comfortable. and the circle starts again, build skill sets, raise your comfort level. and keep your confidence in check. and watch the lap times drop. theres more than just skill.theres mental too.

you can have all the skill in the world and your comfort level is low,=high lap times.
no skill and a false sense of confidence,= crash.

everything in balance,= lower times.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 05:03 PM   #5
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I'm not so sure... this is a matter of semantics. To me, if I'm not comfortable I am by definition riding over my head and it's time to back off. I don't learn anything or become more comfortable as a result, only that I screwed up and went too far.

I feel that riders do make progress even riding within their comfort zone, simply because their skills improve. Riding within a comfort zone doesn't necessarily mean static development. The comfort envelope expands and speeds increase without the high risk involved in pushing the SR button and riding beyond a given skill level.

I think that "all the skill in the world but your comfort level is low" is something of an oxymoron. If you have all the skill in the world, it stands to reason that your comfort level will be much higher than a less-skilled individual. Therefore you will be faster automatically. That's what I'm getting at with the OP... those bike handling and judgment skills have improved, therefore I'm more comfortable going faster because it doesn't feel scary. Pushing above my comfort level isn't what made those skills improve. Experience, practice and instruction are.

I do think a lot of this has to do with personality. If you're seeking an adrenaline rush, the only way to get it is by pushing to the edge and beyond, and accepting the greatly elevated risk that goes along with that. Likewise, if you're chasing lap times, you're more likely to push that extra bit to grab the brass ring.

If you're just there to develop as a rider, become better and smoother, all of that... then those goals mean less.

People ask me how fast I go. I really don't know, and frankly don't care. I never look at my speedo, and I'm not one of those guys who has to tape it over to keep my eyes off of it. My gauge of success is how the lap feels, and whether I left anything on the table (which is often). I view those missed opportunities as wasted time. That's what makes me want to go faster... but always within my limits.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 05:11 PM   #6
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As a sort of corollary -- A fairly respected member of the local track community told me recently "If you're not crashing from time to time you're not getting better"... Instantly downgraded my opinion.
Now there's also a matter of confidence -- I have noticed that if I get pushed to go a notch or two faster than I do by default that I still feel quite comfortable and that I can maintain that pace, but until pushed into it I have a hard time convincing myself of that fact. To use a metaphor, I tend to ride at 60-70% when it's perfectly fine to push it up to the 80s. But there's a difference between that and pushing past my comfort -- that's a sign I'm outrunning my skills and, while I may improve, it won't be any faster than running 'at' comfort with a solid set of leftover attention for my skill work.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 05:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
I'm not so sure... this is a matter of semantics. To me, if I'm not comfortable I am by definition riding over my head and it's time to back off. I don't learn anything or become more comfortable as a result, only that I screwed up and went too far.

I feel that riders do make progress even riding within their comfort zone, simply because their skills improve. Riding within a comfort zone doesn't necessarily mean static development. The comfort envelope expands and speeds increase without the high risk involved in pushing the SR button and riding beyond a given skill level.

I think that "all the skill in the world but your comfort level is low" is something of an oxymoron. If you have all the skill in the world, it stands to reason that your comfort level will be much higher than a less-skilled individual. Therefore you will be faster automatically. That's what I'm getting at with the OP... those bike handling and judgment skills have improved, therefore I'm more comfortable going faster because it doesn't feel scary. Pushing above my comfort level isn't what made those skills improve. Experience, practice and instruction are.

I do think a lot of this has to do with personality. If you're seeking an adrenaline rush, the only way to get it is by pushing to the edge and beyond, and accepting the greatly elevated risk that goes along with that. Likewise, if you're chasing lap times, you're more likely to push that extra bit to grab the brass ring.

If you're just there to develop as a rider, become better and smoother, all of that... then those goals mean less.

People ask me how fast I go. I really don't know, and frankly don't care. I never look at my speedo, and I'm not one of those guys who has to tape it over to keep my eyes off of it. My gauge of success is how the lap feels, and whether I left anything on the table (which is often). I view those missed opportunities as wasted time. That's what makes me want to go faster... but always within my limits.
if i can take a turn , at say 65 all day long and im comfortable. my skill set can handle 75 but im out of my comfort. 2 things happen, i either drop back to 65 or relieze 75 and im still good to go. and my comfort level raises from 65 to 75
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 05:22 PM   #8
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lay a 2x4 on the ground. and you can walk on it, raise it up to 10 feet, can you still walk the 2x4? why not? you have the skill set. you are out of your comfort zone.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 06:23 PM   #9
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If you have trouble balancing on the 2x4 on the ground due to lack of skill, you'll still have trouble at 10 feet even if you are entirely comfortable with the height.

If you are comfortable on the ground, you'll be comfortable at 6 inches. After awhile, you won't notice the 6 inches at all... and you'll be comfortable at 8, then ten, then a foot, and so on, without ever exceeding that comfort zone limit. Improvement will have come through experience, not because the board got jacked up to where you were scared. The comfort zone simply gets bigger.

A quick Google search suggests that this is in fact how gymnasts train for the balance beam. They even make graduated-height beams, so that once the skills are mastered closer to the ground (because learning happens when you're not scared), the gymnast moves up in height. Observe:



The saying I like is that you "sneak up on fast."

Last weekend for one session I bumped down to novice, partly because I was getting tired and partly to ride with some friends. I was markedly (even surprisingly) faster than the riders in that group, comfortable passing all over the place, etc.

Clearly, I've gotten a lot quicker since I was a novice-group rider. Yet I've never really tried to push out of my comfort zone. Never crashed. Never had a truly close call (a few "moments" and agricultural excursions, sure, but minor).

If improvement only comes from pushing beyond my limits, then how did that happen? How did I get faster? (Again, I think this is really just semantics... we appear to be defining "limits" differently.)

I do agree that you'll progress much more quickly and in bigger steps if you get a sink-or-swim kick in the butt, or if you consciously try to push the envelope.

But if my personal experience is any indication, you'll still get there even if you don't. The difference is that if you push or get pushed before you're ready, the risk goes way up.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 06:43 PM   #10
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i agree adoulas,
i take my daughter, she does somthing at 20 mph , thats her ceiling, to her it cant be done faster. i give her a tow at 25mph she comes in and sayes thats easy, she is now at 40mph, had to get her out of her comfort zone
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 07:01 PM   #11
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i agree adoulas,
i take my daughter, she does somthing at 20 mph , thats her ceiling, to her it cant be done faster. i give her a tow at 25mph she comes in and sayes thats easy, she is now at 40mph, had to get her out of her comfort zone
Can I ask how you give the tow? I've found they frequently can lead to overconfidence since the student can simply mimic the lead rider and when they lose the tow they are 'comfortable' but don't have the skills to properly select their lines since their reference is now gone.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 07:20 PM   #12
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Can I ask how you give the tow? I've found they frequently can lead to overconfidence since the student can simply mimic the lead rider and when they lose the tow they are 'comfortable' but don't have the skills to properly select their lines since their reference is now gone.
the tow is just above her comfort, alot of encouragment and follow me , i truly believe i did not throw her to the wolves, and was sure she was capable.
you do bring up a point i did not consider, the loss of a tow, the line and entry speed, now she has to figure out.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 08:55 PM   #13
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the tow is just above her comfort, alot of encouragment and follow me , i truly believe i did not throw her to the wolves, and was sure she was capable.
you do bring up a point i did not consider, the loss of a tow, the line and entry speed, now she has to figure out.
I think I'd love @Misti to give her feedback next time she stops by -- she definitely has a bit of "pushing you just a bit more" when she leads me, but obviously she's also focusing on watching my technique as well.
I know she spends at least as long trailing me to watch for what I'm doing so she can give feedback and I bet also that way she knows how much left I've got in the skill tank before I'll start getting myself in trouble.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 09:14 PM   #14
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I think I'd love @Misti to give her feedback next time she stops by -- she definitely has a bit of "pushing you just a bit more" when she leads me, but obviously she's also focusing on watching my technique as well.
I know she spends at least as long trailing me to watch for what I'm doing so she can give feedback and I bet also that way she knows how much left I've got in the skill tank before I'll start getting myself in trouble.
i would love to hear from her too. everytime i go to the track I get coaching, and i get pushed a little bit by the coach also weather its roll on sooner, roll on harder, brake a little deeper. im a little out of my comfort. and not all my riding is like this , i have no problem droping to slower group to work on things, but i do believe ther is a place to push in training.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 09:31 PM   #15
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if i could add another point. one of my big hurdles was adding throttle after the slowest point of the turn, I would almost stand the bike vertical before adding throttle. now im adding throttle as i take away lean. this was not a comfortable transition for me, but it dropped my lap times by seconds.
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Old August 23rd, 2017, 10:02 PM   #16
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if i could add another point. one of my big hurdles was adding throttle after the slowest point of the turn, I would almost stand the bike vertical before adding throttle. now im adding throttle as i take away lean. this was not a comfortable transition for me, but it dropped my lap times by seconds.
Throttle control is huge. There's a reason it is literally lesson one for all CSS students. For me the best example of it is at The Ridge through turn 13-14-15... It's a steep downhill, and I see so many riders coast through it... rolling on gives the bike a much more planted feel as the weight transfer helps stabilize everything. It's not much roll on, but it gets the job done.

As an aside: you may be able to add throttle even earlier given what you're describing -- while your ability to get on the throttle aggressively is best done as you stand the bike up, you are best off if you start opening it as soon as the bike is 'on line'. That can be before you've even hit the apex - in fact most of the time I find it is pre-apex.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 06:04 AM   #17
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i agree adoulas,
i take my daughter, she does somthing at 20 mph , thats her ceiling, to her it cant be done faster. i give her a tow at 25mph she comes in and sayes thats easy, she is now at 40mph, had to get her out of her comfort zone
Yeah, I've found that if I have a skilled rabbit I'll go faster... but only if I've got the bandwidth to follow without pushing the SR button.

To me, that means I was too far inside of my comfort zone. The limit was higher than I thought it would be.

Outside the comfort zone = discomfort by definition. At the higher speed, following the skilled rider, I was still comfortable. Therefore still within the comfort zone, right? Just not aware of its true extent.

There's a related thread about "finding the edge" that speaks to this.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 06:06 AM   #18
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if i could add another point. one of my big hurdles was adding throttle after the slowest point of the turn, I would almost stand the bike vertical before adding throttle. now im adding throttle as i take away lean. this was not a comfortable transition for me, but it dropped my lap times by seconds.
This, absolutely! My biggest issue is a timid right wrist and something I'm always working on. My tire wear tells the tale... my front is wearing faster than my rear.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 08:31 AM   #19
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Even sometimes where I know I can go faster the thought of the risk of that section bothers me. The "straight" at Palmer is one of not many places that track has where you can relax. But if I am at 130+ on that straight I realize I could slow even to 125 (indicated) and catch my breath, and not feel like I am on some sort of edge.

Then turn one down into 2, certainly I can pick up more speed down that hill, but I think of what could go wrong there at the bottom into 2 and therefore keep my speed in check.

Now Thompson doesn't give me those odd feelings, though I tend to go mellow over the rise coming to the straight. Maybe its just that I need more time at Palmer.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 08:37 AM   #20
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Old August 24th, 2017, 11:09 AM   #21
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Yeah, I've found that if I have a skilled rabbit I'll go faster... but only if I've got the bandwidth to follow without pushing the SR button.

To me, that means I was too far inside of my comfort zone. The limit was higher than I thought it would be.

Outside the comfort zone = discomfort by definition. At the higher speed, following the skilled rider, I was still comfortable. Therefore still within the comfort zone, right? Just not aware of its true extent.

There's a related thread about "finding the edge" that speaks to this.
Yep, for me that's the difference between 'comfort' or 'capacity' (how fast I can go before errors and SRs creep in) and 'confidence' (how fast I feel I can go). When riding at The Ridge and CotA there were times where I would end up behind @Momaru, but with some distance. He'd be in turn 3, I was in turn 1 or 2 as an example. I found this was a pretty good way to push myself past my confidence and realize I had the room -- I knew I couldn't just get "sucked in" since he was too far ahead for me to copy his lines but I knew our distance was stable/growing/shrinking.

For me the most important thing with this strategy is to not let the ego creep in -- if @Momaru was running away from me I should let him go and stay in my own skill zone; but generally this year I was able to keep up. Probably time for me to go read the edge thread, since I'm realizing the gap of my comfort and confidence is larger than it needs to be.
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Old August 24th, 2017, 12:55 PM   #22
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Then turn one down into 2, certainly I can pick up more speed down that hill, but I think of what could go wrong there at the bottom into 2 and therefore keep my speed in check.
Yeah, the giant rock wall on the outside of that turn can be intimidating to say the least. Plus, now that they've extended the line of cones that point you in the right direction down and around the corner, the track looks like it gets really narrow.

My spot for that kind of hesitation is coming up over the rise into 6. A blind crest and a diving turn... I'm always rolling off too soon through there.
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Old September 8th, 2017, 02:35 PM   #23
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I think I'd love @Misti to give her feedback next time she stops by -- she definitely has a bit of "pushing you just a bit more" when she leads me, but obviously she's also focusing on watching my technique as well.
I know she spends at least as long trailing me to watch for what I'm doing so she can give feedback and I bet also that way she knows how much left I've got in the skill tank before I'll start getting myself in trouble.
Quickly before I race to school to get my kids

How much to push a student is certainly one of the hardest skills as a coach to master. Push too hard and the student can crash behind you trying to catch/keep up.

We do spend a fair bit of time behind watching to know what needs more work, what is working well and also we also keep a careful eye on our students when we jump ahead to ensure that our student is close and that we aren't gapping them too much. Plus, we need to show them the technique we are workign on. So if it is throttle control and getting them to roll on the gas more then I'd lead them in at a comfortable pace but maybe gap them on the exit to show just how much more they could roll on. If we are working on entry speed combined with TC then I may lead them in slower then they are used to to demonstrate how sometimes slower in can lead to faster out. It's a very individualized program for each student and a very careful line that we like to be sure we don't cross.

As I said, lead a student in too fast or push them too hard and some of them can go down behind you trying to keep up. Again, knowing your student's personality can help with this as well. I'll read the rest of the thread when I get another moment of free time.

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Old September 11th, 2017, 12:55 AM   #24
Abu_Mishary
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Originally Posted by Misti View Post
Quickly before I race to school to get my kids
A hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. Well, if she is racing ya to get her kids, do the math.
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Old September 11th, 2017, 04:51 AM   #25
adouglas
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Originally Posted by Misti View Post
Quickly before I race to school to get my kids

How much to push a student is certainly one of the hardest skills as a coach to master. Push too hard and the student can crash behind you trying to catch/keep up.

We do spend a fair bit of time behind watching to know what needs more work, what is working well and also we also keep a careful eye on our students when we jump ahead to ensure that our student is close and that we aren't gapping them too much. Plus, we need to show them the technique we are workign on. So if it is throttle control and getting them to roll on the gas more then I'd lead them in at a comfortable pace but maybe gap them on the exit to show just how much more they could roll on. If we are working on entry speed combined with TC then I may lead them in slower then they are used to to demonstrate how sometimes slower in can lead to faster out. It's a very individualized program for each student and a very careful line that we like to be sure we don't cross.

As I said, lead a student in too fast or push them too hard and some of them can go down behind you trying to keep up. Again, knowing your student's personality can help with this as well. I'll read the rest of the thread when I get another moment of free time.

This is exactly what Ken Condon did during that private instruction. Never over the edge (i.e. blowing the mental budget), but always challenging me to do more.
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Old September 11th, 2017, 08:39 PM   #26
Misti
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A hand that rocks the cradle is the hand that rules the world. Well, if she is racing ya to get her kids, do the math.


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Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
This is exactly what Ken Condon did during that private instruction. Never over the edge (i.e. blowing the mental budget), but always challenging me to do more.
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Old September 11th, 2017, 08:55 PM   #27
Misti
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i would agree, but at some point you have to raise your comfort level. not riding over your head but riding above your comfort , thats where progress is also made. and pretty soon what was uncomfortable becomes comfortable. and the circle starts again, build skill sets, raise your comfort level. and keep your confidence in check. and watch the lap times drop. theres more than just skill.theres mental too.

you can have all the skill in the world and your comfort level is low,=high lap times.
no skill and a false sense of confidence,= crash.

everything in balance,= lower times.
Here's the thing though. Sometimes just putting in the work at the 80% mark, finding RP's, solidifying braking markers, adjusting your BP, moving your eyes up, means that when you do push yourself a bit more you aren't uncomfortable but just able to ride faster easier.

Here's an example. I race mini bikes at a local go-kart track. I've never owned my own mini bike, I just rode bikes that were offered or sponsored, usually a few weekends at a time here and there but I never had time to really practice and get used to the bikes. I never had time to really practice at all. I finally bought my own bike, went to the track and actually did the drills that I coach at the Superbike School (which I've never done on a mini bike at that track) and I just went through the motion, never scaring myself, never running off track or running too wide or getting even close to what I felt was the edge. I did no brakes, I practice my throttle control, I drew the track and found new RP's.

The next race (I was exhausted from returning from coaching 4 days in NJ the night before) I went out and smoked everyone. I smoked my old lap recored, I smoked people that usually beat me and I never once felt like I was uncomfortable. I won two races and came second in a hard fought battle where I hung on the leaders tail and bettered my PB time by over a second. The racing was amazing, so fast, so fun but methodical and consistent. More consistent than I have ever ridden in my life.

Sometimes when you try and push yourself or try and go fast it backfires but putting in the time and doing the work can often make you go faster without even realizing or feeling like you are going faster.

Here are 4 laps in a row from my lap timer. About as consistent as you can get and all personal best times for me.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 04:43 AM   #28
adouglas
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Sometimes when you try and push yourself or try and go fast it backfires but putting in the time and doing the work can often make you go faster without even realizing or feeling like you are going faster.
You've illustrated my point perfectly, Misti.

Laying the groundwork at 80% expands the envelope, right? Because you've got the extra bandwidth to learn, rather than just trying to survive.

A higher pace What was once scary starts to feel slow... so you go faster almost by default...

On the track we're not watching the speedo or the clock (or we shouldn't be!). So your perception of speed is the only gauge you have. If you don't feel like you're going fast, well, you're naturally going to crank it up until you do.

At least that's been my experience....
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