May 13th, 2015, 07:08 PM | #1 |
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Cam shaft seating issues after a valve adjustment?
Sooo, I finally opted to try my hand at a valve adjustment for the first time, as my race season is finally at a brief lull, and I knew I was overdue (Which was clear by my noticeably tight valve clearances). Seemed easier than I expected, and everything was going pretty great, until it came time to put the cams back.
For some reason, my intake cam won't seat tightly. The exhaust slides into place no problem, but no matter how I angle the intake, it's slightly higher than the exhaust side, and the brackets, thusly, won't clamp quite right (And bind the shaft when I tighten it down). Has anyone ever had something like this happen? Is there something obvious I'm missing that needs to be moved around? Or some order of tightening that I'm missing here? Seemed like such smooth sailing up until this point, too T_T |
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May 13th, 2015, 07:19 PM | #2 |
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That's normal. The intake cam lobes are pushing against the intake valves due to it being TDC. Just hand tighten the cap bolts and start tightening them down in sequence.
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May 13th, 2015, 08:00 PM | #3 | |
CVMA/AFM #72
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Quote:
And now the cam won't rotate at all whatsoever. What kind of sequence am I supposed to be doing other than just cross tightening the bolts on each piece? |
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May 13th, 2015, 08:01 PM | #4 |
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That does not seem normal.
I did the valves on a '10 250r two weeks ago and when properly timed with #2 at TDC, the intake cam had the lobes off the buckets on both cylinders and slipped right in. The exhaust cam had the lobes off the buckets on #2 but on #1 it had to be tightened down. If #1 is at TDC, I am not sure which lobs will be on the buckets on #2. Make sure #2 is at TDC and install the cams per the manual using the tightening sequence shown and see what happens. Be sure to check the sprockets on the end of the cams, on my 250r the intake cam had a paint mark over "IN" and a paint mark over "EXH" on the exhaust cam. Be sure you are installing the cams over the correct valves. Also remember #1 is on the left side of the bike as you ride. |
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May 13th, 2015, 08:06 PM | #5 | |
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May 13th, 2015, 08:16 PM | #6 |
CVMA/AFM #72
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It won't go on evenly no matter how I rock it or tighten it. That cam is too raised and just won't fit right for some reason. I even tried trading the exhaust and intake cams to see if they would fit in their opposite spots, and the exhaust side once again sat perfectly, while the intake was raised.
But it turns out none of this matters because it that shaft just snapped putting on the cover. Ugh. This is why I was always afraid to work on engines. everything is delicate and nothing goes in the way it came out. I hardly put any force on it, too... Not really sure what to do at this point other than order new parts then ask a professional since I'm sure it still won't fit :/ |
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May 13th, 2015, 08:35 PM | #7 | |
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Quote:
I have a 300 intake cam if you want it.
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May 13th, 2015, 08:41 PM | #8 |
CVMA/AFM #72
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Fortunately, it turns out one of my local buddies is trying to offload a parts motor, so it looks like I'll have it covered. Which is good because I just looked up the cost of cam shafts and had a miniature break down, haha. Seriously thank you for the offer (and replies in general) though.
I'll pull the valves again and check before I even try to put in the new intake shaft. Not sure why nothing is ever as easy as it seems when I do it >_< |
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May 13th, 2015, 09:05 PM | #9 |
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When you take the cam out, you can see the face of the valve shim buckets and compare their height against each other. If the shim is not seated properly, the bucket will sit higher than it should and will stand out in comparison to the others.
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May 14th, 2015, 10:57 AM | #10 |
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@Zombiphone - got a picture of the snapped shaft?
Sorry to hear it broke... However, what you are experiencing is normal. The key is to work the cam chain while tightening down the cam cap covers... The chain binds against the cam chain guides and bunches up with non of the slack taken up by the cam chain tensioner (which can't be installed until the cams are properly installed). So, the procedure I've found that worked well is to tighten down all of the cam cap cover bolts the same amount, 1/2 or 1/4 turn at a time, following the factory tightening sequence. After each sequence, wiggle the cam and the chain. Eventually it will "pop" into place and you'll be able to tighten it the rest of the way. Unfortunately I'm in Colorado, or I can help you get this straightened out in about 30min (with new parts if they are required). Calling @RacerX, got any parts lying around?
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May 14th, 2015, 11:55 AM | #11 | ||
CVMA/AFM #72
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm gonna hopefully pick up a new cam from a buddy who's got a spare top end tonight, so I'll feel around a bit more before I even try to tighten anything this time. I wasn't touching the cam chain beyond the initial timing effort, so I'll see if I can get it to shift more that way. What is the factory tightening sequence exactly? I have a service manual, but I was having trouble finding any reference to the reinstallation process, so I was just cross tightening the four bolts on the cover as carefully as I could. |
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May 14th, 2015, 12:22 PM | #12 |
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maybe it was on the wrong TDC and the valves that were being depressed by the cams pointing down were pushing on the pistons. also i'm not sure but i think if you want to swap cams you need to plastigauge and replace the plane bearings with correct sizes, or take it to a machinist to hone your current bearings to spec with the new cam
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May 14th, 2015, 12:24 PM | #13 |
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Dayum! Supa-strength! I think this is a defect on the camshaft, unless somehow you pinched it in a very special spot to cause it to crack like that... The cams are steel, the head is aluminum, I would expect the cam journals to deform first if there was that kind of pressure... But what do I know?!
The Camshaft installation procedure is found on 5-18 of the factory service manual. The numbers/sequence is also cast into the caps - at least they are on mine. So silly question, you used the correct cam cap for the correct side? I've mixed them up before is why I ask. Glad to hear you found a replacement! Is this your first sacrifice to the Gods of Speed?
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May 14th, 2015, 12:47 PM | #14 |
CVMA/AFM #72
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Yep, double and triple checked the EX and IN markings on the caps before I put anything on. One of my other friends was speculating it must have been slightly cracking or near failure already to snap like that, which I want to believe because it makes me feel better about having to replace it, but I'm guessing it's just made of a ******, brittle forged steel and I dun fugged up
The important thing is, no matter what happens with this re-assembly now, I'm gonna be walking away with a trophy |
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May 16th, 2015, 10:25 AM | #16 |
CVMA/AFM #72
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So good news and bad news- the good news is- I FIGURED IT OUT! And for more good news, I was following the install correctly afterall!
The bad news is, the reason it wouldn't sit right was nothing to do with the state of the engine, rather, there was a chunk of metal that broke off in the channel that I didn't notice (when removing the cams, I assume). Seems to be wedged in there quite tightly though, so I don't know if I'm going to be able to clear said channel. If I CAN clear the channel, I can comfortably confirm that valve adjustments are not actually so bad. If I can't, I can officially accept that I'll be learning to replace either an entire top end or an entire motor (pending cost) But for more good news, now finally understanding why it wasn't working and where I screwed up takes a lot of that fear out of the equation that I was starting to build up here. These motors are fragile as ****ing lollipops, but they're not rocket science (unless you count maybe rocket science from the 80s), and there wasn't a secret technique I was missing. Well.... maybe subtlety and less impulsive behavior techniques, but you know. It's funny how ****ing up can actually result in more understanding and confidence than it may have if things had gone well |
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May 16th, 2015, 10:40 AM | #17 |
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Half the fun of owning a motorcycle is learning to work on them. Glad to hear you figured out what was going on. It can be a bit of a Learning curve when working on things like this and patience is key.
Can you post a pic of the chunk that broke off and where it came from? |
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May 16th, 2015, 07:58 PM | #18 |
CVMA/AFM #72
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^^Agreed. I know going into anything for the first time, chances are likely I'm going to make mistakes. But for better or worse, that doesn't usually stop me, haha. This was a good learning experience, especially being I had put off this valve adjustment for much too long just out of pure intimidation, despite having done plenty with suspension, carbs, and other eternal components in the past. I'm glad this was on a ninja 250 and not an expensive bike. I actually won't be afraid to do this again in the future now that I know what to be careful of....
Doubly so because- with much penetrating oil, a slew of different pick like tools, and even more coercion and struggling- I managed to unwedge the piece of metal! Frabjous day! The metal piece was off the end of the cam shaft itself. Not 100% certain why one shaft failed while the other was fine under the same stresses (I maintain that the cams are made of seriously brittle and fragile metal, though), but I'm assuming the piece chipped off when I loosened the cylinder cap before loosening the chain guard brace, causing it to somehow lever itself against the engine case and break off a small piece. Having never opened my own engine before, I didn't bat an eye at having two slightly different shaped ends, as the chip was so clean, and I didn't know what to look for. Which still seems odd to me, since the cams both came out so uneventfully, but unless it had been starting to fail or running like that previously (which I assume wasn't the case), that's the only explanation I can think of for when the piece got jammed in there So new tip for anyone else who might try this for the first time and is as awkward as I am: Also be sure to loosen in perfect sequence to prevent possible leverage. Or suffer the tiff-tastic consequences Not a great shot but- Pic: |
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May 16th, 2015, 08:02 PM | #19 |
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Awesome to see a DIY job done right I'm gonna have to do this 3,000 miles from now too.
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May 16th, 2015, 08:09 PM | #20 |
CVMA/AFM #72
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No no- this is DIY done with all the grace of a flounder on stilts
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May 17th, 2015, 08:03 AM | #21 |
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May 18th, 2015, 08:25 AM | #22 |
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Brilliant! Glad you got it figured out!
Not to contradict you, but I think this is a testament to how strong these engines are... Consider this - the head is made out of aluminum. The cams are made out of steel. The steel broken off the cam provided a fulcrum levering the steel camshaft on such a way as to break it in half. If the Aluminum head did not suffer damage, you just broke steel with AL.... That means the cap bolt threads are plenty strong, the bearing surfaces and cap are incredibly strong, and, if this engine doesn't suffer long term, that's a rather robust design... Sure, the cams are a brittle, but then again, they'd have to be to reach the price point and be as hard as they are... Glad you got it figured out!
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May 18th, 2015, 09:24 AM | #23 |
CVMA/AFM #72
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That's a fair assessment. The engine itself is quite solid, and if anything, I'm still relieved breaking two separate points off the camshafts in two separate places leveraging the recesses in the case didn't do any damage to the case itself. The fact that nothing in it was broken until I touched it is really not bad for an engine where around 10k of the 19k or so miles on it were pure track and race miles.
But that brittle and fragile steel construction is still going down as the bane of my existence, right up there with high torque philips screws and decayed rubber well nuts |
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May 18th, 2015, 01:44 PM | #24 |
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high torque phillips screws and rotten well nuts are terrible designs. We all hate them. Price-point has it's limitations...
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