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Old May 26th, 2010, 11:10 AM   #161
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87, cause thats what i was told
Well someone knew what they were talking about....
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Old May 26th, 2010, 12:32 PM   #162
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I'll try 87 but if it runs worse back to 91!
I already have 9000 miles on 91 octane without any valve adjustment.
Still runs great!
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Old May 26th, 2010, 01:01 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by pedaltothemetal View Post
I'll try 87 but if it runs worse back to 91!
I already have 9000 miles on 91 octane without any valve adjustment.
Still runs great!
I'd be very interested in what you find w/ the 87.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 02:52 PM   #164
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^That it runs fine. Unless you have the perception and thinking only 91. Your mind will click on anything to affirm the thought that 91 is better.

Run 87. Most manufacturer's RON is 91 I do not know why this is other than to keep one type on tap alll the time for the ease of use between testing different models.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 03:42 PM   #165
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More important then octane is additives. All gas comes from the same place, but different gas companies put in different additives to help keep the engine clean and running well. I find I get the best running and gas mileage from Chevron or Shell. It's all in the additives.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 04:03 PM   #166
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I seem to get better results with shell on the zx6r. Chevron tweaked their formula recently cause I have tried several different stations and the mileage just isn't like it use to be. Shell has been consistent.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 04:25 PM   #167
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Given the choice I always choose Shell. I am boycoting BP at the moment.
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Old May 26th, 2010, 05:24 PM   #168
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Given the choice I always choose Shell. I am boycoting BP at the moment.
I don't blame you.

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Old May 27th, 2010, 12:27 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
Ethanol is actually one of the most common ways to *raise* the octane level. The high ethanol content gas means that much less of other additives and treatments are necessary to meet the octane rating requirements. Ethanol has less available power in it by weight compared to standard gasoline, but its octane rating is quite high.
So my question is now... in California all gas has 10% ethanol in it (one of the many things that makes this state so freaking annoying) so should I keep putting in 91 octane? From this statement I gather that ethanol artificially raises octane level so in actuality you are purchasing gas at a lower octane. In all honesty it's a 10 cent difference between 87 and 91 and doesn't affect the final total enough to really get me to use the less expensive gas.
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Old May 27th, 2010, 12:40 PM   #170
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No, 87 octane is just fine, even here in California. Our gas is permitted to have up to 10% ethanol, but it actually varies based on supplier (and even time of year). Whether it's ethanol or another oxygenate or combination of oxygenates that gets the fuel to its eventual octane rating; that rating truly does represent the behavioral properties of the fuel. 91 will not provide any more performance, will not contain any more energy, just as folks have stated throughout this thread.

I also find a much larger price difference between 87 and 91, at least here in NorCal. It's always at least 20 cents difference, and sometimes as much as 40 cents apart. Not like that's a huge amount of cash for a < 5 gallon tank, but as it provides zero benefit, there's no need to spend even that little amount extra.
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Old May 27th, 2010, 03:16 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pedaltothemetal View Post
I'll try 87 but if it runs worse back to 91!
I already have 9000 miles on 91 octane without any valve adjustment.
Still runs great!
One thing has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the other.
If you don't service your bike at the recommended intervals or slightly beyond, soon you will be having a problem (expensive too), and it has nothing to do with the gas you use. Where do you get that from? Do you really, honestly, believe the higher octane gas is "protecting" your valves so they don't have to be adjusted? I wouldn't buy your bike when you're done with it, it's going to need a lot of work.
And you need to do a little homework other than on here and read up about octane, and read up about why these bikes need valve adjustments. Don't spout off about stuff you don't know about and give out bad advice.
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Old May 27th, 2010, 03:20 PM   #172
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I'm not sure that he was giving bad advice, he was only sharing his experiences with it. I do hope that that he has the valves checked at some point soon as well to confirm that all is well, as the octane level probably didn't do much to affect it one way or another.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 01:03 AM   #173
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From another forum......


It isn't E85... E85 is 85% Ethanol and 15% Petrol. What Maxol are selling is E5, which is 5% Ethanol and 95% Petrol.

Adding 99 RON to an engine that's designed to run on 95 RON will make absolutely no difference to power output or MPG. The RON rating has nothing at all to do with the output power, it's a measure of how the fuel reacts in the engine at different compression ratios and a few other factors... basically, it's a measure of what point the engine starts suffering from knocking/pinking/pre-ignition.

The only important numbers are the ones that tell you how much energy the fuel contains, that's basically the amount of hydrocarbons and like what we eat, it's measured in calories.

One litre of Maxol 95 RON Unleaded has a calorific value of 31 MJ.

One litre of Maxol 99 RON E5 has a calorific value of 30.51 MJ.

To make it simple, that means that if you're getting 31 mpg on regular Maxol petrol, you'll get 30.51 mpg on E5 so the fact that it's 99 RON makes no difference if it's used in an engine designed/set up to run on 95 RON.

The only way it will make a difference is if you raise the compression of the engine and/or alter the ignition timing. That's the only way you'll benefit from a higher RON.
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Old May 28th, 2010, 09:48 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by mrlmd View Post
One thing has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the other.
If you don't service your bike at the recommended intervals or slightly beyond, soon you will be having a problem (expensive too), and it has nothing to do with the gas you use. Where do you get that from? Do you really, honestly, believe the higher octane gas is "protecting" your valves so they don't have to be adjusted? I wouldn't buy your bike when you're done with it, it's going to need a lot of work.
And you need to do a little homework other than on here and read up about octane, and read up about why these bikes need valve adjustments. Don't spout off about stuff you don't know about and give out bad advice.
I already got my tappet feeler guages to check the valves. Dealer will check them for 185 if I take the plastics off and just another 15 to change them. They recycle the shims and never have done a new gen so have plenty of used shims to use from other bikes if they fit. But I will likely attempt to do it myself. The valves wear and intrude into the cylinder head tightening them especially the exhaust. So best to find the shim that is on the bottom of the range. Think these 250 have shorter valve adjustment intervals due to the high revs we are constantly at. OK. What are the symtoms of needed valve adjustment. Hard starting is one. So far mine is fine here.
Regards to octane, why we need 87. Think our bikes lack torque due to small cylinder displacement and always in the higher revs. And maybe the the cylinder heads run cooler due to better heat disipation. It doesn't have a knock sensor to retard the timing so if it is not knocking you shouldn't need higher octane. Thing is once carbon starts to develop in the combustion chamber that could increase the compression ratio enough to cause knock. As well as very high ambient temps of summer. At that point maybe go a grade higher in gas.
So what do you think of my thoughts here.

BTW you are very lucky you get the adjust your valves just by loosening your locknut and just turn a screw. Reason why a lot of us are putting it off and relying on other reports of how their clearance was at the first 7500 interval. Based on this info, we think we can go at least 12000 before actually need it. Power to you!
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Old May 28th, 2010, 11:41 AM   #175
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I ran 87 when I had the 250.
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Old May 30th, 2010, 08:18 AM   #176
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Quote:
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I'd be very interested in what you find w/ the 87.
I do know all the facts but still reluctant to put 87 octane! Maybe someone
who uses 87 can try 91 and see if there is any difference!
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Old May 30th, 2010, 09:01 AM   #177
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87 straight gas here..no ethonal....runs like a champ. Buy the expensive stuff with ethanol in it if it makes you feel better. Your better off to spend the extra coin on straight gas if your looking for a LITTLE better performance.
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Old May 30th, 2010, 09:11 AM   #178
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Using 95, always been. Simply because 98 isnt necessary. No other choices in Norway. They stopped selling 92 octane many years ago.

I've simply stopped filling at Shell, they dont sell regular 95 anymore..just this "fuelsaving super 95" crap. no thank you.
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 09:44 AM   #179
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Here in Utah with the higher altitude, they sell 85 octane at the pumps. Should I be using that instead of 87?
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 09:53 AM   #180
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Every now and then you'll come across a pump with a separate nozzle for "premium" fuel....but for the most part Alex and Kelly are right.

Even rarer still is when you come across the old style pump...where you have to flip down the little thingy instead of pressing the buttons. I love seeing people struggle with those ones.

LOL I found myself struggling with one of those the other day, goddamn I was confused! (I was up north)
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 10:13 AM   #181
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Here in Utah with the higher altitude, they sell 85 octane at the pumps. Should I be using that instead of 87?
The higher altitude means that a lower octane is required. The 87 octane is based on being at sea level. Also the gas in UTAH is 10% ethenol, this technically increases the octane. I've run both 85, 87 and 91 with no noticable differences.

Put in some 85 and see how it goes. If you notice that the engine starts to ping (knock) then put in some 87 to see if it goes away. If it goes away then you know that 87 is needed.

I've had no problems with 85 and I usually run 85, because I get cheap gas at costco (Costco only has 85 and 91 here in Utah).
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 10:19 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pedaltothemetal View Post
Maybe someone
who uses 87 can try 91 and see if there is any difference!
Good plan, but first you have to answer this question: How do you want to measure that difference?

Around here, we have 87, 89, and 93 octane. ALL of it has 10% alcohol in it.

I did a 1500 mile comparisson with my 08 right after I got it and shimmed the needles, put a K&N air filter in it, and added a TBR slip on. That was all pretty much right after I got it. I had heard all sorts of claims, so I wanted to see for myself.

Conditions were about sea level, March-May, MidAtlantic area.

I filled up from empty (mostly darn near fumes left in the tank) as often as possible, usually from gas jugs at home, to ensure that I was as near empty as possible. I did 500 miles with each octane, alternating between each grade of gas with each tank to spread around the differences in weather and riding use (commute or sport back roads) for that week or whatever.

When it was all said and done, the difference in mileage per gallon was statistically insignificant, I think like less than 1mpg overall, with an extreme spread of just a few miles per gallon within each octane rating and across the three octane ratings as a whole sample group. After that, I stopped tracking it and didn't care any more, just kept using 87.

Subjectively, though, I'm SURE that I went faster with 93 octane, but only because my wallet was lighter and my bike was green!!!

During that time, the only gas that I used was from Wawa (mostly from one particular station), so it was about as generic a brand as you could get.

For the remainder of the 6K+ miles that I put on the bike I just used 87 from wherever I was at the time, never had any issues at all.

Unless you've done something to the bike that substatively changes the compression ratio or timing, fill it with 87, ride it like you stole it, and go on to worry about more important things in life.
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 11:47 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkamper View Post
The higher altitude means that a lower octane is required. The 87 octane is based on being at sea level. Also the gas in UTAH is 10% ethenol, this technically increases the octane. I've run both 85, 87 and 91 with no noticable differences.

Put in some 85 and see how it goes. If you notice that the engine starts to ping (knock) then put in some 87 to see if it goes away. If it goes away then you know that 87 is needed.

I've had no problems with 85 and I usually run 85, because I get cheap gas at costco (Costco only has 85 and 91 here in Utah).
Cool. I'll give it a shot. I'm not really sure though if I would recognize knocks and pings as I've never heard them before or at least recognized them.
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 11:53 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjkamper View Post
Also the gas in UTAH is 10% ethenol, this technically increases the octane.
This may be correct (10% ethanol), but the rating at the pump is the end result. I.E. 85 doesn't mean a "true 87" because of ethanol content. AFAIK, the 85 (RON + MON / 2) is the actual rating of that gasoline, which takes into account whatever was used to get the octane rating to that particular measurement.
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 12:49 PM   #185
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Quote:
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This may be correct (10% ethanol), but the rating at the pump is the end result. I.E. 85 doesn't mean a "true 87" because of ethanol content. AFAIK, the 85 (RON + MON / 2) is the actual rating of that gasoline, which takes into account whatever was used to get the octane rating to that particular measurement.
That's supposed to be correct. Whatever the sticker says is what it's supposed to be.
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 01:08 PM   #186
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This may be correct (10% ethanol), but the rating at the pump is the end result. I.E. 85 doesn't mean a "true 87" because of ethanol content. AFAIK, the 85 (RON + MON / 2) is the actual rating of that gasoline, which takes into account whatever was used to get the octane rating to that particular measurement.
Yes if it says 85 you're supposed to be getting 85.

Altitude affects octane requirements.

I was just explaining the type of gas we have available here in Utah and the properties of ethanol. (sorry if my statement was misleading).
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 01:13 PM   #187
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Yep.
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 01:25 PM   #188
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Quote:
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I'm not really sure though if I would recognize knocks and pings as I've never heard them before or at least recognized them.
It sounds slightly metalic, like something is hitting the walls of a tin can. Similar to shaking a can of spray paint.

Have you ever heard an old engine that has problems with "Dieseling"? (Where you turn the engine off and it keeps going off pace for a few revs). It sounds really similar to that, but a little bit more rythmical.

Listen to your engine well before putting in 85. If you notice a difference, then that difference might be what you're looking for. I'd bet that you won't notice a difference. Like I said, I have not had any problems with 85 Octane.
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Old June 3rd, 2010, 02:06 PM   #189
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That's what they sell there because that's what works. You do NOT have a high compression engine which needs a higher octane. If it runs well, with no pinging, then that's what you use. There is some obsession with the word "octane" meaning better, and that is not the case. And if your bike is pinging, a higher octane may stop it, but that's masking some other problem because this engine is designed to run on regular low octane fuel.
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Old September 24th, 2010, 08:39 PM   #190
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all this time i have been using 91. what a read thanks ninjette!
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Old September 24th, 2010, 11:15 PM   #191
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Back in '85? The Environmental Protection Agency forced a large chunk of the lead in gasoline to be removed (lead removal actually started in 1975). At the time I was riding a KZ1000K2 that loved premium...Union 76 92 Octane to be exact. After the lead levels dropped the mighty KZ started pinging under a load (loud and audible) and the performance level dropped off significantly. The bike had an 85 Mph speedo and fixed engine timing (I threw the 85 Mph speedo thing in just because that was mandated by the government too). Anywho to fix the pinging I had to slot the stator plate to retard the fixed timing to get the KZ to run on the new fuel without pinging. This degraded the already degraded performance even more. In the end I just sold the Kawasaki.

Moral of the story...be thankful, be very thankful that all current bikes run fine on Regular

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Old September 25th, 2010, 10:32 AM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smcbride11 View Post
I use 87 also, since that's what the manual commands.

I read in Rider this month that at altitude you'll sometimes find 85.5 (Eastern MT in particular), but that it behaves the same as 87 because of the altitude... Not that I plan on being above 10,000 feet anytime soon, but anyone know if there's any truth to that?
Most of the pumps here have 85.5. I wouldn't put that in anything other than a rental car. I ride at 10,000 feet regularly. We haven't had the 250 up there yet, but my 9R feels about equivalent to my SV650 at sea level. The altitude absolutely KILLS performance for everything. My cars are dogs up there as well. I am not sure it matters what gas you run at such altitude, the bike isn't going to make any power anyway unless you are specifically tuned for it.
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Old September 25th, 2010, 04:59 PM   #193
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I run 87 in mine, when I first got it I wa using 91 then did the research in to what the numbers are how they get them and what they do. I switched to the 87 and honestly feel the bike performs better with it and is more responsive thought that just could be mental.
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Old September 25th, 2010, 07:58 PM   #194
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I use 91 octane only from chevron with techron haha lol but yeah if i can't find a chevron shell would suffice for the gallon until i can find a chevron station lol
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Old September 25th, 2010, 08:37 PM   #195
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I use 91 octane only...
why??? haven't you read anything in this thread?
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Old September 26th, 2010, 02:18 AM   #196
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Jeez i just read it and i'll start using reg. instead of premium, the funny thing is is that when i first bought it from THE DEALERSHIP!!! the guy said i needed to use 91 octane and i asked him twice to make sure lol welp just goes to show never trust the stealership lol thanks kkim
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Old September 26th, 2010, 02:42 AM   #197
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well, I think the dealership might be confused by the sticker that kawi uses on the bike which says to use 91 RON (sold in other countries) which is the equivalent of 87 PON gas we have here in the states.

enjoy the savings from using the 87 octane gas.
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Old October 6th, 2010, 10:41 AM   #198
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Doesn't higher octane gas burn cleaner? Or is it that it burns hotter? Either way, I will be putting the highest octane at the pump in everything I own, short of my craftsman mower.

Not that I am saying you guys are wrong. Maybe I am wasting my money putting 91+ in the 250, but we're talking about a difference of less than $1 per tank.
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Old October 6th, 2010, 10:56 AM   #199
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Doesn't higher octane gas burn cleaner? Or is it that it burns hotter? Either way, I will be putting the highest octane at the pump in everything I own, short of my craftsman mower.

Not that I am saying you guys are wrong. Maybe I am wasting my money putting 91+ in the 250, but we're talking about a difference of less than $1 per tank.

Yep your wrong... 91+ will not ignite as easily so a higher compression engine can come to full compression before pre-igniting preventing spark knock. I'm sure it won't hurt the ninja but it is wasting as you say "$1 per tank" X's each fillup X's all the fillups in a year X's all the years you own it.
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Old October 6th, 2010, 11:12 AM   #200
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Doesn't higher octane gas burn cleaner? Or is it that it burns hotter? Either way, I will be putting the highest octane at the pump in everything I own, short of my craftsman mower.

Not that I am saying you guys are wrong. Maybe I am wasting my money putting 91+ in the 250, but we're talking about a difference of less than $1 per tank.
sigh...
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