Coolant Question

[beninja]

Was just watching Jay Leno's garage and there's a video on waterless engine coolant called "Evans"

Flushing my system soon, so was wondering if anyone has used it?

[Motofool]

It seems over-killed for our application.

All water needs to be flushed out ($33 gallon of flushing agent).

It is expensive ($44~112 per gallon).

The website doesn't explain the content or the interaction with aluminum.

[rojoracing53]

Unless you've modified your coolant system in some way I can guarantee your bike is already running to cold as it is.

[beninja]

I was just considering it as a choice cause it gets really hot during the summers in Arizona, and it says you never have to replace it cause it keeps its viscosity.

Also it runs on an unpressurized system so it's supposedly less wear on the cooling system.

I'm just wondering if it would work in the ninjettes and how to unpressurize the cooling system.

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by beninja

I was just considering it as a choice cause it gets really hot during the summers in Arizona, and it says you never have to replace it cause it keeps its viscosity.

Also it runs on an unpressurized system so it's supposedly less wear on the cooling system.

I'm just wondering if it would work in the ninjettes and how to unpressurize the cooling system.

Yeah I'm not really sure about how all that will or can work but anything is possible if the want it bad enough. At the very least the first to try will have something unique for awhile.

[beninja]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

Yeah I'm not really sure about how all that will or can work but anything is possible if the want it bad enough. At the very least the first to try will have something unique for awhile.

I think I'm going to try it out when I flush the system, I'm thinking to unpressurize the system I can remove the rubber seal under the coolant container's cap (if there is one).

And I'm assuming Jay Leno actually likes the product, they couldn't pay him enough to advertise a product that he doesn't trust..he's too rich!

[rojoracing53]

I don't know if removing the rubber cap would work because would the coolant tend to leak out as it splashed around?

[beninja]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

I don't know if removing the rubber cap would work because would the coolant tend to leak out as it splashed around?

Motorcycles only stay perpendicular to the ground = no splashing haha

True, well the radiator cap is what creates the 15psi of pressure our system requires, maybe there is a cap available that is 0psi?

[rojoracing53]

Originally Posted by beninja

Motorcycles only stay perpendicular to the ground = no splashing haha

True, well the radiator cap is what creates the 15psi of pressure our system requires, maybe there is a cap available that is 0psi?

You mean perpendicular to downward G-force like in a turn but I was referring more to when your hard on the brakes. I think instead of removing the rubber from your cap it may be a better idea to add a breather to your overflow bottle. I can understand the anti corrosive benefits of this but the extra cooling properties would be wasted on a ninja 250. Now the idea of using it in my RM-Z250 that I use for my more knarly Enduro adventures could seriously benefit from a higher boiling point while I'm knee deep in mud or stuck on some crazy rock climb smoking the clutch.

[beninja]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

You mean perpendicular to downward G-force like in a turn but I was referring more to when your hard on the brakes. I think instead of removing the rubber from your cap it may be a better idea to add a breather to your overflow bottle. I can understand the anti corrosive benefits of this but the extra cooling properties would be wasted on a ninja 250. Now the idea of using it in my RM-Z250 that I use for my more knarly Enduro adventures could seriously benefit from a higher boiling point while I'm knee deep in mud or stuck on some crazy rock climb smoking the clutch.

I would only really be looking at the anti-corrosive benefits like you said, and in terms of my usage of my ninja I rarely reach temperatures very high, only on occasion, stop and go traffic in summers, or prolonged spirited riding.

What type of breather do you suggest?

[tubarney]

The radiator cap is a little more important than you think. From service manual:
"The system is pressurized by the radiator cap to suppress boiling and the resultant air bubbles which can cause engine overheating. As the engine warms up, the coolant in the radiator and the water jacket expands. The excess coolant flows through the radiator cap and hose to the reserve tank to be stored there temporarily. Conversely, as the engine cools down, the coolant in the radiator and the water jacket contracts, and the stored coolant flows back to the radiator from the reserve tank.
The radiator cap has two valves. One is a pressure valve which holds the pressure in the system when the engine is running. When the pressure exceeds 93 ∼ 123 kPa (0.95 ∼ 1.25 kgf/cm2, 14 ∼ 18 psi) the pressure valve opens and releases the pressure to the reserve tank. As soon as pressure escapes, the valve closes, and keeps the pressure at 93 ∼ 123 kPa (0.95 ∼ 1.25 kgf/cm2, 14 ∼ 18 psi). When the engine cools down, another small valve (vacuum valve) in the cap opens. As the coolant cools, the coolant contracts to form a vacuum in the system. The vacuum valve opens and allows the coolant from the reserve tank to enter the radiator."

If you want more anti-corrosion protection; how about looking into using an additive.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by beninja

I was just considering it as a choice cause it gets really hot during the summers in Arizona, and it says you never have to replace it cause it keeps its viscosity.

Also it runs on an unpressurized system so it's supposedly less wear on the cooling system.

I'm just wondering if it would work in the ninjettes and how to unpressurize the cooling system.

Consider that your pump will work harder and will steal more power from the engine due to the increased viscosity of the coolant.
Passages in the radiator are really narrow.

Water absolute viscosity at 212 F = 0.28 centipoise

Heavy Duty Evans absolute viscosity at 212 F = 2.3 centipoise

Copied from http://www.evanscooling.com/products/coolants/hdtc/

Boils 375F @0psi
Freezes -40F
Viscosity 2.3cp @ 212F

Consider also that any fuel economy comes from raising the functioning temperature of the engine by modifying the set points of the fan sensor and the thermostat, as they explain has been done for certain vehicles.

The clearances of your engine have been designed to work around 205 ~ 245 F. If forced to work at higher temperatures, the friction and wear among parts may increase.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cooling_system

If set temperature is not changed, the engine will operate as usual; however, expansion will always occur (~ 7% in volume); hence, the seal and valves of the radiator cap will still be necessary to move fluid from and to the expansion tank, as @tubarney explains above.

[GlassAnkles]

im a firm believer in Cycle-Logic Engine Ice. i had a KTM a few years ago that would boil over in the muck and the engine ice solved it instantly.

plus its bio-degradable and less nasty when you go to change it again i flush any bike i buy with distilled water, then fill it up with the icey goodness

[beninja]

Thanks for the info, so i guess just sticking with normal coolant is the choice.

What coolant do you all recommend?

[tubarney]

Anything thats specifically says that it is safe to use in aluminium engines and radiators. If it don't, don't put it in. Belray moto chill, Motul motocool are 2 for example.My brother uses engine ice on his dirt bike (aluminium radiator) and has no complaints. . Honestly I live in western Sydney, Australia where the other day it was 108 F, 42 C, around 90% humidity and coolant is the last of my worries. Your Ninja loves the heat; it makes more HP. Mine makes 2 HP more when steaming hot.

Just flush it once every year (its cheap) and your good to go.

[Motofool]

I am not against your experiment with Evans; just pointing out what concerns me, but have no idea how well it may work for Ninjettes.
Please report back if you end up using it and testing it for a while.

Originally Posted by beninja

......What coolant do you all recommend?

I use Water Wetter + Distiled water.
Since it eliminates the vapor barrier (which has a high heat transfer resistance), it suits the hot Florida summer better.

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=117&pcid=10

Check this old thread for more recommendations:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...light=distiled

[rojoracing53]

My motor builder for my race bikes suggested to stay away from using just water and water wetter because it has no protective properties in it. He says there a real difference when he pulls apart a motor with water wetter vs coolant. Plus it's suggested to change out plain water wetter more often like every 3 months.

[rojoracing53]

I'm still going back and forth with Bill at Wattman.com collecting and analyzing data from the ninja 250 so I figured I send him an email asking him what he thought of Evans coolant. Here's his reply.

Yep, have heard of it for years. My understanding is it is all of those good things everyone advertizes about it… but they seem to completely ignore one thing, which is the inability to remove heat. Sort of like how water works better than Ethlyene Glycol. My understanding is it is worse than either, so if you had a bike with no thermostat and you rode 60 mph all day and it ran 100 hotter than ambient with distilled water, it would run 110-115F hotter than ambient with a 50/50 mix of Ethlyene Glycol / Distilled Water, and would run 1XX (higher number than 110-115) with Evans.

How hot is that number? I don’t know. Never tested it.

If you had a bike with a huge radiator and a thermostat to control temps, then all three methods would result in the same temperature. If you had a KLR like me (small radiator for the system) then you’d be running 210F riding home in august with DW, 220-225F riding home in August with EG/DW, and hotter yet with Evans. So it doesn’t attract me. I’m not under the impression that it’s one degree hotter: ;my guess (no data) is 20 or 30 degrees hotter.

In the Jay Leno article, he said “now it won’t overheat”, but what he really meant is “it will run hotter, but it won’t boil over”.

Bill
Watt-man.com

[lgk]

Imo, The stock cooling system flows too much through the radiator with the thermostat closed. My motor used to never warm up.

the thermo bob my engine stays at operating temp riding in both hot and cold with regular coolant. Riding like an ass didnt seem to change anything.

I think its a much more reliable solution than specialized coolant.

[rojoracing53]

Yeah me and Bill are trying to figure out why my Koso gauge is only showing the system at 180 with the 195 stat installed. We believe its the colder ambient temp influencing the sensor but for the hell of it he asked to send a second 190 stat to install and test. He's a super cool guy that like me loves to learn new things.

The thermo-bob mod is my #1 recommend mod for anyone who regularly rides in temps below 80degs and wants to maximize engine life. It's not just about coolant, if your bike is running cold then your oil is also running cold(thick)

[lgk]

I agree completely.
It one of the best things i did to the bike.

I haven't mounted the water temp sensor yet on the koso guage but maybe it would be a good idea to test the accuracy of the sensor by boiling it.

[rojoracing53]

My Koso gauge reads 212.2degs in boiling water at 50' elevation. It also with 0.2 degs within my $600 fluke temp sensor through the whole range from 60-212degs. This why Bill thinks it strange that I'm only at 180 when I should be a least 190.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by rojoracing53

My Koso gauge reads 212.2degs in boiling water at 50' elevation. It also with 0.2 degs within my $600 fluke temp sensor through the whole range from 60-212degs. This why Bill thinks it strange that I'm only at 180 when I should be a least 190.

That is weird.
Have you taken temps at the radiator, bypass hose connector, motor outlet, and thermobob itself?

[beninja]

Originally Posted by Motofool

I am not against your experiment with Evans; just pointing out what concerns me, but have no idea how well it may work for Ninjettes.
Please report back if you end up using it and testing it for a while.



I use Water Wetter + Distiled water.
Since it eliminates the vapor barrier (which has a high heat transfer resistance), it suits the hot Florida summer better.

I'll definitely let you know if I use it, thanks for the links, seems like engine ice is the choice if I don't experiment with evans.

If the pumps have to work harder or just as hard as with normal coolant because the viscosity of evans, I will most likely stick with normal coolant and flush it regularly to prevent corrosion.