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Old July 28th, 2016, 12:02 AM   #1
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140 80 17 tires

So I have been using the bike for commuting purposes and got a nail in my tire. I replaced the rear with a 140 80 17 tire (it was the one recommended for the 3.5 rims) I got the bt 45s and only got about 20 miles on them today. The reason I got a bigger tire is because call me crazy, but I didn't like how "flick able" the stock tires are. I'm not doing any twisters except on a rare occasion. The 140 70s said for 4.0 rim but the 140 80s were for a 3.5. What I did not expect was how much taller the 80s are to the 70s more than an inch added in diameter. (I looked after I was like wtf this is so tall lol) do i have any major things I need to worry about with this? Other than height, I really like the bigger tires. The only flaw is it's really close to the rear of the swing arm (about 2-3 mm clearance) and it physically looks huge, but I feel more stable in turns and less like I need to come back up to correct my line. Thoughts? Options?? Anyone do this yet?

Oh and another question. In changing my tire the shop really botched my rim :-( how do I repair the chunks out of it? I asked them and they said they do tires by hand and black nail polish will hide the scuffs. Needless to say I'll never go back to that shop.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 04:25 AM   #2
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If I have been keeping track of the riders here who have switched to 140 sizes of rear tires, many have went to 140/70 vs 140/80 but you're not the first to put an 140/80 on the rear. There should be no rideability issues that you can't overcome by using the taller tire. Although, if you didn't like the flickability with the stock tire, then this one shouldn't change that aspect of the bike in the direction your wanting to go with the stock front. The net result of your setup now is you have effectively raised the rear of the bike while leaving the front height stock. This is something racers do to INCREASE the flick rate of the bike. We consider it an improvement along with the added rotating mass in the rear (heavier tire) helps with mid corner stability when you want 60% of the total bike/rider weight on the rear tire.

Keep riding it... if you like it, then there is no issue. Otherwise, you know you need to come down in rear height.

Also, as far as fitment and how close it is to the swingarm. There "should" be no big deal with that either, but don't be surprised if you get the tire pretty warm and pick up a rock that gets wedged in between the tire and swingarm. It may make a pretty nasty scraping sound as the tire rolls at very slow speeds or pushing the bike. It may never happen though, due to how the swingarm is designed. The big thing to watch for is odd looking wear lines down the center of the tire. If you see this, check to ensure the tire is not rubbing the swingarm.

For your wheel... If the shop damaged the paint on your wheel, THEY should fix it. And NOT with nail polish either. If it's just paint damage, then you can get a colorrite pen. If they scratched/gouged it, then that will have to be repaired and you can get some colorrite touch up paint for that area.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 04:32 AM   #3
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If your overly concerned about it, swing by Putnam Park this weekend between 8am-5pm and I will have a look. If anything needs adjusted, we will have our tools with us.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 04:44 AM   #4
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This is the image of the tire. I liked this brand because its a "sport touring" tire made for wet and dry conditions and the zig zag in the middle is supposed to prevent you from getting stick in "tar snakes" or cracks in he road. @csmith12 I should have done more research on the 140/80 tire. But i read a lot of people on here saying not to go with a 140/150 unless its made for the 3.5 rim size. The chart on the Bridge Stones website (http://www.bridgestonemotorcycletires.com/Street.aspx) under BT45 said that te 140/70 COULD fit a 3.5 but the recommended rim was 4.0. I thought i was being smart by getting the 140 that was for the 3.5 rim lol! oh well, I know now to check the diameter not just the tread width. I was more worried about it rubbing on the sides I never though about it being close to the back. I did a little research and the problem will be resovled as soon as my chain starts stretching and I can pull the rear tire back a little more. (at least I think). I am going to replace my front tire really soon too, is it okay to go with a 120/70? I know 110/70 is the recommended, but I like the bigger tires for aesthetics lol. I dont want to lose proformance, but at the same time I feel really weird when I could lean so easy on stock tires.

Also the messed up rim situation, this guy owns his own shop, I met him through a friend. I asked him about repairing the rim and his exact words he emailed me back were "Some tire machines aren't very gentle with the rims. That's why I do it by hand. Black nail polish works best." I really want my rims repaired but I dont want to push the issue too much ( I dont do well with conflict) worst case, where can I get stuff to repair it myself?
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Old July 28th, 2016, 04:56 AM   #5
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120/70 is just fine for the front. For next time... most of the major tire brands that have a 140/70 size rear tire fit just fine on the 3.5 ninja wheels. This does NOT hold true with the 150 sizes. Most of them will fit, but pinch the tire changing the tire's profile shape.

You can get a colorrite pen in black from colorrite.com but if it's kinda small, and fixable without notice with nail polish, then I would just go to wal-mart and get one of their touch up pens for a much lower cost.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 08:40 AM   #6
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I've run the BT45 in SERENITY for now the third season, but they are spent, switching back to Kenda, due to the cost.

The Bridgestone tyres are excellent, and I had no issues with them whatsoever.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 08:53 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
... the 80s are to the 70s more than an inch added in diameter...
If it helps, a 140 80 should be 28 mm larger in diameter than a 140 70. And the actual width or height can differ from the sidewall marking, a lot.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 12:53 PM   #8
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If it helps, a 140 80 should be 28 mm larger in diameter than a 140 70. And the actual width or height can differ from the sidewall marking, a lot.
And the 140/70 is already 14mm taller than a stock 130/70, meaning the new tire is 42mm (1.65") larger than the old one was.

This tire raises the rear over 3/4", which will actually make the steering quicker (since it's changing the angle of the forks). Going to a larger front tire will make it resist turning more, but that may give you odd results combined with the quicker steering - it seems like the turning effect may be more sudden. I've stuck with the stock size in front and stock-like for my wider rear wheel, so I'll leave this to people with more firsthand experience with different sizes. Keep in mind that different tire models will inherently feel different too.

Also note that the BT45 is a bias-ply tire. They're more flexible because they're essentially the same construction from bead to bead. Radials have distinct sidewall and tread area construction, so they're more stable at speed, last longer, and have less rolling resistance. Radials have been standard on all cars for 30+ years now, and are what modern performance bikes use.

As has already been said, as long as the tire doesn't rub and you like the way it feels, it's fine. The bias-ply tire will expand more at speed, so make sure you're checking for rubbing after rides too, not just for clearance when it's parked.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 01:11 PM   #9
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And the 140/70 is already 14mm taller than a stock 130/70, meaning the new tire is 42mm (1.65") larger than the old one was.

This tire raises the rear over 3/4", which will actually make the steering quicker (since it's changing the angle of the forks). Going to a larger front tire will make it resist turning more, but that may give you odd results combined with the quicker steering - it seems like the turning effect may be more sudden. I've stuck with the stock size in front and stock-like for my wider rear wheel, so I'll leave this to people with more firsthand experience with different sizes. Keep in mind that different tire models will inherently feel different too.

Also note that the BT45 is a bias-ply tire. They're more flexible because they're essentially the same construction from bead to bead. Radials have distinct sidewall and tread area construction, so they're more stable at speed, last longer, and have less rolling resistance. Radials have been standard on all cars for 30+ years now, and are what modern performance bikes use.

As has already been said, as long as the tire doesn't rub and you like the way it feels, it's fine. The bias-ply tire will expand more at speed, so make sure you're checking for rubbing after rides too, not just for clearance when it's parked.
Okay, this is where I am VERY confused. I got a Bias because I read that they last longer and are harder to pierce the side walls. The Radials are better for sport bikes and fast cars because they have a round profile where as the bias has a flatter profile? I honestly have no idea, i went with the bias because I THOUGHT it was a better tire for commuting, then again I could be completely wrong.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 01:17 PM   #10
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BT45's do great for combo of commuting and fun riding. They handle rain confidently as well. I did find that the front tire wore a tad funny, but other than looking odd, it felt fine the whole way through its lifespan.

Don't worry about the bias ply vs radial for now. There's benefits to both. Technically, radial tires vs bias-ply tires flex differently, warm up differently, wear differently, and are best with different pressures because of that. BUT! That's not the important part.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 01:20 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
BT45's do great for combo of commuting and fun riding. They handle rain confidently as well. I did find that the front tire wore a tad funny, but other than looking odd, it felt fine the whole way through its lifespan.

Don't worry about the bias ply vs radial for now. There's benefits to both. Technically, radial tires vs bias-ply tires flex differently, warm up differently, wear differently, and are best with different pressures because of that. BUT! That's not the important part.
What sizes did you end up using for your pre gen?
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Old July 28th, 2016, 01:30 PM   #12
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Okay, this is where I am VERY confused.
Trust me, you're not alone. Seasoned track riders still ask about tires, the differences and such. There are pro's and cons to bias-ply vs radial. As of right now though, it's mostly all about tread rubber compounds for these little bikes. Some of the longer lasting tire tread compounds are found on bias-ply tires. The hardness is what ensures the longer milage life but at the expense of higher traction levels. At the same time, much of the radial tire market for sport bikes is geared toward "cornering performance" riding habits. Which in turn has the manufacturers putting softer tread compounds on the tire surface. That is why you get less miles out of them.

That is why you had Alex recommend the Michelin Pilot Street. It's a radial tire with a "street rider" oriented tread rubber compound. ie... it's built for pounding pavement vs carving track corners.

To keep thing simple to understand, you have;
DOTs (Department of Transportation) : Street tires (pretty good mileage out of these tires) Since the bias ply construction of the tire handles loads in a softer way, it makes up for the stiffer rubber compound
DOT/RACE : Tires that are street legal, sticky and suitable for track usage (mileage varies) (many dual compound tires here, harder in the center for mileage, softer on the edges for grip in corners)
RACE : Slicks and some NST (Near slick technology) tires, some are street legal, most are not but these are really made for maximum side contact patch traction (mileage normally sucks) Radial tires don't handle loads as softly as bias-plys, this is a good thing for riders that want to feel traction and what is going on under them. Some are a single compound, others are multiple rubber compounds on the sides vs the center

EDIT (for clarity and not counting cars):
DOTs : Both types, bias-ply and radial
DOT/Race : Again, both types but radials are very, very dominant
RACE : Pretty much radials rule this space except for specific applications (drag racings and the likes)
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Old July 28th, 2016, 01:37 PM   #13
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Trust me, you're not alone. Seasoned track riders still ask about tires, the differences and such. There are pro's and cons to bias-ply vs radial. As of right now though, it's mostly all about tread rubber compounds for these little bikes. Some of the longer lasting tire tread compounds are found on bias-ply tires. The hardness is what ensures the longer milage life but at the expense of higher traction levels. At the same time, much of the radial tire market for sport bikes is geared toward "cornering performance" riding habits. Which in turn has the manufacturers putting softer tread compounds on the tire surface. That is why you get less miles out of them.

That is why you had Alex recommend the Michelin Pilot Street. It's a radial tire with a "street rider" oriented tread rubber compound. ie... it's built for pounding pavement vs carving track corners.

To keep thing simple to understand, you have;
DOT (Department of Transporation) : Street tires (pretty good mileage out of these tires)
DOT/RACE : Tires that are street legal, sticky and suitable for track usage (mileage varies)
RACE : Slicks and some NST (Near slick technology) tires, some are street legal, most are not but these are really made for maximum side contact patch traction (mileage normally sucks)
I cant remember exactly why I didnt go with the Michelin, but it had a majority to do with there was very little reviews on it, so I couldnt see how it actually preformed rather than how they SAID it preformed. The battlax had many reviews on motorcycle superstore including some Ninja 250 riders.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 01:58 PM   #14
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What sizes did you end up using for your pre gen?
100/90-16 on front and 130/90-16 on rear.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 02:06 PM   #15
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I cant remember exactly why I didnt go with the Michelin, but it had a majority to do with there was very little reviews on it, so I couldnt see how it actually preformed rather than how they SAID it preformed. The battlax had many reviews on motorcycle superstore including some Ninja 250 riders.
This will help...

http://www.bridgestone.com/products/...ory/index.html

Notice the bt45 were designed with touring in mind. Mileage, rider comfort and those type of things where in mind when the tire was designed and built. Although, these tires are perfectly fine for the "casual" twisty road rider just the same.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 02:28 PM   #16
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My experience with BT45s is that they're good for knee dragging twisties too.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 02:44 PM   #17
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And the pilot streets are great for tread life AND railing it around in the mountains.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 04:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by InvisiBill View Post
And the 140/70 is already 14mm taller than a stock 130/70, meaning the new tire is 42mm (1.65") larger than the old one was.

This tire raises the rear over 3/4", which will actually make the steering quicker (since it's changing the angle of the forks). Going to a larger front tire will make it resist turning more, but that may give you odd results combined with the quicker steering - it seems like the turning effect may be more sudden. I've stuck with the stock size in front and stock-like for my wider rear wheel, so I'll leave this to people with more firsthand experience with different sizes. Keep in mind that different tire models will inherently feel different too.

Also note that the BT45 is a bias-ply tire. They're more flexible because they're essentially the same construction from bead to bead. Radials have distinct sidewall and tread area construction, so they're more stable at speed, last longer, and have less rolling resistance. Radials have been standard on all cars for 30+ years now, and are what modern performance bikes use.

As has already been said, as long as the tire doesn't rub and you like the way it feels, it's fine. The bias-ply tire will expand more at speed, so make sure you're checking for rubbing after rides too, not just for clearance when it's parked.
I forgot to ask, how can I check for signs of rubbing after rides? What can I do if it is rubbing? I would hate to waste $110 on a tire I can't use I really thought I was doing the right thing!
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Old July 28th, 2016, 06:12 PM   #19
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Look for wear on the tire and on the thing it's rubbing against. If it's not too bad, it will take care of itself by removing a little rubber so it doesn't rub.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 07:51 PM   #20
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For chain or swingarm rubbing, that's correct. If the tire is tall enough, and the rear shock is light enough. there's a risk of the tire hitting the undertail when the bike hits a large bump at speed. At that point, there is more risk of real damage to the plastics rather than just the tire. Happens frequently on lowered bikes. Stock height bikes with tall rear tires, I'm not sure it's quite as likely.
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Old July 28th, 2016, 07:59 PM   #21
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I forgot to ask, how can I check for signs of rubbing after rides? What can I do if it is rubbing? I would hate to waste $110 on a tire I can't use :( I really thought I was doing the right thing!
Look for marks on the tire in areas that are close to parts of the bike.

Here's a tire that's been rubbing on the chain.


Here's an example from a car.


Imagine if you put the bike up on a stand with the wheel spinning, and held a chunk of metal against the tire. That's the sort of damage you should be looking for, because that's exactly what would be happening.

If there is rubbing, you need to alter something so there isn't rubbing. That could be anything from grinding away part of your swingarm to getting a longer chain to move the wheel back to just buying a tire in a size that fits properly. As Jim said, it's it's just a tiny bit of rubber being ground off, it may be ok to just let it do that. Like Alex said, a big enough tire could possibly cause problems with the tail on big bumps. My major concern is something metal on the swingarm digging into the tire enough to cause serious problems.


I'm not saying nobody should use non-stock tire sizes (I myself have a non-stock wheel and tire), but there are a lot of details that go into part selection. You need to make sure you're considering all aspects that the change will affect. If you're doing something that most people aren't, that could be because it's a great idea nobody has thought of yet, or because it's a bad idea that nobody wants to do. If you're not willing to make some mistakes, it's a lot easier and cheaper to just stick to what's already been proven.

Unless someone has a very specific need met by another tire, my default recommendation for any small Ninja on the street is the PSR in stock sizes. It's not the best in any single category, but it's very close in all of them (whereas the winners in each category usually suck in the other categories). If you want, going up to the 140 is an option, but it only increases the wire's width by the thickness of a CD jewel case - it really is a pretty tiny amount in the grand scheme of things. But either one will fit fine and Just Work™ and be a really good tire. Everyone I've heard using them loves them.
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Old July 29th, 2016, 06:03 AM   #22
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For chain or swingarm rubbing, that's correct. If the tire is tall enough, and the rear shock is light enough. there's a risk of the tire hitting the undertail when the bike hits a large bump at speed. At that point, there is more risk of real damage to the plastics rather than just the tire. Happens frequently on lowered bikes. Stock height bikes with tall rear tires, I'm not sure it's quite as likely.
Yeah, mine is stock height. That was one of the first things i did when i got home, I pushed on the rear to see if it was going to hit. I put most of my weight on it and it didnt hit, but im not sure how true that is to a real world situation.
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Old July 29th, 2016, 06:20 AM   #23
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Look at it after each ride for a while. If it does hit, you'll probably see rub marks on the plastic before it does real damage.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 05:06 PM   #24
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*UPDATE*

it looks like my tire is rubbing in one place. I finally got out and up to 60 mph today and when I got home I found this...

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old July 31st, 2016, 05:08 PM   #25
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What do you think it is hitting?
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Old July 31st, 2016, 05:12 PM   #26
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What do you think it is hitting?
I am almost positive it's hitting the very back of the swing arm. But not when I am stopped... I put it on a stand and checked it, it doesn't rub when I am going low speeds. It's got a good 2-3 mm distance. Maybe it's because someone mentioned above it expands when you ride?
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Old July 31st, 2016, 07:49 PM   #27
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appears to be rubbing in the center of the tyre, narrows down location of the party foul . Pictures of tyre at the swing arm and of anything that is center of the rear wheel.
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Old July 31st, 2016, 07:50 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
*UPDATE*

it looks like my tire is rubbing in one place. I finally got out and up to 60 mph today and when I got home I found this...
See post #2. It's hitting.

Quote:
The big thing to watch for is odd looking wear lines down the center of the tire. If you see this, check to ensure the tire is not rubbing the swingarm.
Most likely here, circled in red. Your 2 lines...

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Old July 31st, 2016, 08:49 PM   #29
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It doesn't look overly serious. If the grooves don't get much worse, I'd finish out that tire's life and get a slightly smaller one next time.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 02:13 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
See post #2. It's hitting.



Most likely here, circled in red. Your 2 lines...

Yeah, that's what I figured. When I put it in my stand and rotate the tire, no rubbing. I rode about 40 mph, got home, no lines. But when I got in the highway I came home to the lines... My friend I was with told me it wasn't too bad because it isn't anywhere near as deep as the treads and once I break I'm the tire, I shouldn't have rubbing at all. Is the correct? I was going to go up to Putnam to have you look at it, but my significant other didn't want me riding an hour by my self.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 05:19 AM   #31
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Link to original page on YouTube.

I also finally got a good video of my messed up rims. Its like this on one side all the way around... I feel like he didnt even TRY to prevent damage...

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Old August 1st, 2016, 05:46 AM   #32
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Tire is too big. We run a 150 series Alpha 13 and have no rubbing but it's 35mm smaller diameter than yours. Difference in diameters below.

A properly sprung shock upgrade would help minimize the rear shock travel and probably make the rubbing lessen considerably or go away all together. Pretty sure you can pick one up for less than $100 on fleabay.

Diameter = 619mm
Your diameter = 655.32
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Old August 1st, 2016, 10:48 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post
Yeah, that's what I figured. When I put it in my stand and rotate the tire, no rubbing. I rode about 40 mph, got home, no lines. But when I got in the highway I came home to the lines... My friend I was with told me it wasn't too bad because it isn't anywhere near as deep as the treads and once I break I'm the tire, I shouldn't have rubbing at all. Is the correct? I was going to go up to Putnam to have you look at it, but my significant other didn't want me riding an hour by my self.
Well, once the metal wears away the rubber that's hitting it (or you wear the tire tread down with enough use), it won't rub anymore, since there won't be anything left there to rub.

Keep in mind that as long as you have grooves visible like that, the metal is riding in that little carved out channel in the tire. If the tire's shape changes (due to increased speed, lean angles, etc.), it could put nearby rubber in contact with the metal instead. It's not going to completely lock up the rear or anything, but just remember that it could rub more under more extreme circumstances, which is generally when you want the least amount of surprises.

It doesn't look too deep. I wouldn't expect it to cause significant damage to the tire. But keep an eye on it to make sure, and don't forget that as long as you have tread higher than the bottom of the groove, the tire could still rub.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RacinNinja View Post
A properly sprung shock upgrade would help minimize the rear shock travel and probably make the rubbing lessen considerably or go away all together. Pretty sure you can pick one up for less than $100 on fleabay.
If the tire is rubbing on the swingarm, changing the shock will have absolutely no effect on that.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 11:00 AM   #34
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It's not really ALL about the damage to the tire. The swingarm has now worn a water channel right in the center of the tire affecting it's wet handling right where you expect it to be most stable. While I believe it will be fine with normal street riding/speeds, it is NOT how the tire was designed to channel water.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 11:02 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by ZeroGravity360 View Post

I also finally got a good video of my messed up rims. Its like this on one side all the way around... I feel like he didnt even TRY to prevent damage...
Touch up paint... :\ And never go back to that guy again.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 11:07 AM   #36
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It's not really ALL about the damage to the tire. The swingarm has now worn a water channel right in the center of the tire affecting it's wet handling right where you expect it to be most stable in the wet. While I believe it will be fine with normal street riding/speeds, it is NOT how the tire was designed to channel water.
damn it Thats not good, I really wanted to be able to ride in the rain. I know this is mostly my fault for ordering a tire that was too tall, but I would have thought the guy that put it on would have told me I need to buy a new chain, or he could have moved it back even a few mm would have stopped it from rubbing. its cutting in only 2 mm maybe a little more, but its not a huge dent... I am never going back to that guy... he really ****ed me over...
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Old August 1st, 2016, 11:09 AM   #37
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Old August 1st, 2016, 11:12 AM   #38
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You can ride in the wet, just be aware of what your rear tire is doing and adjust accordingly. I didn't post that to scare you or anything, I promise. I just wanted to make you aware. If the pavement is just kinda damp, there will be no big deal. If there is standing water, then expect your traction to be less than what the tire is rated for, because there is an "extra" water channel.
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Old August 1st, 2016, 11:14 AM   #39
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You can ride in the wet, just be aware of what your rear tire is doing and adjust accordingly. I didn't post that to scare you or anything, I promise. I just wanted to make you aware. If the pavement is just kinda damp, there will be no big deal. If there is standing water, then expect your traction to be less than what the tire is rated for, because there is an "extra" water channel.
How can I fix this? Is it worth taking it to a DIFFERENT shop to get it moved back a few mm? or is it okay for now? I feel like an idiot, but all noobs learn somehow i guess..
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Old August 1st, 2016, 11:56 AM   #40
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You can't "really" fix it, adding rubber to the tire is not an option. The pain has already been inflicted. Safety is ALWAYS my #1 concern. So I would just buy a new tire and sleep better at night while having the best possible confidence in my bike's tires in all conditions.

If not.... What would "I" do in your shoes?
Step 1 - Stop it from rubbing.
Do you have plenty of chain slack? If so, adjusting things back a mm or two may cure the rubbing problem. As long as your chain still has the proper slack after moving it and a 107 link chain is an option fyi. As you ride, the line will wear itself out. ie. heal itself via raw milage.

Sell the tire as a "take off" and buy a more fitting size. If you go this route, do it NOW! Before the line gets too deep. A new rear tire is cheap enough but if I couldn't sell the larger tire, I would replace it anyway and store it in the garage for a later time or until it does sell.

I look at it like this, it's pretty much the same if you had a more "routine" issue with a new tire; a nail, a screw, a manufacturing defect, won't hold air well, whatever... If it needs replaced, then replace it and chalk it up to the cost of doing business. We ALL make mistakes that cost $$ sometimes. As riders, we forever will need to eval our own risk in tires and what we are willing to "bet our arses" riding on. It's the T in tclocs remember? Some riders will ride happily on that tire, others... no so much.

Adding a link to the chain is considered taboo at best, please DO NOT be tempted to do this. "Adding" risk elements should be avoided at all costs, and you just be replacing one with another.
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