Tapping/ticking noise after valve job

[rmorse]

Hey guys....I was just reminded why I always work on my own bikes and cars. Didn't have time to do it so I dropped my baby ninja off at the shop to have the carbs rebuilt and the valves checked and shimmed. Picked it up today (took them a month and a half to do the job) and the bike is filthy. They did knock $350 off the price though, dropping it down to $650.

Started riding home and immediately noticed a weird ticking. It's RPM and load dependant, and it sounds like the noise valves make when they aren't getting enough oil. A tapping almost. Any ideas what this can be? Also, there's a hose hanging underneath the bike. I'm assuming it's a vent hose for a carb, but it's almost dragging on the ground. It's long enough to get wrapped up in the chain. Any ideas where that's supposed to be tucked?

Any help or guesses is greatly appreciated; I can post videos and pictures if necessary. Thanks!

[cuong-nutz]

They probably routed the vent/drain hoses wrong. I'm guessing the gas tank overflow hose.
Post a video of the sound.

Does the bike run fine?

[rmorse]

Bike feels pretty good. I'll post a vid tmw

[rmorse]

Good news! The ticking is gone.

Bad news! The front of my motor blew up while I was doing 80MPH.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by rmorse

.........
Bad news! The front of my motor blew up while I was doing 80MPH.

So, ......... it was a bad ticking !!!

[rmorse]

Lol, yea. Definitely a bad ticking.

Sooo, I didn't update this thread before so I'll do it now. I posted the thread on Thursday. On Friday morning (I was off work), I went out for some coffee. I noticed my bike was pissing out coolant so I carefully rode it the mile back to my place and then called up the shop, pissed. Its already been a month and a half and I got the bike back with issues. So the service manager started talking to me and then looked up my name. I'm 28 but have been riding motorcycles (dirt bikes) since I could walk. He saw that we've been shopping there for over 2 decades and have bought plenty of bikes from them. So he drove his personal truck to my place to pick up the bike and bring it in to the shop.

I explain everything that was going on and the technician told me (in front of the manager) that the ticking was the cam tensioner is a little worn and can click/wiggle and that's what I'm hearing. He told me I have about 10-15 thousand miles left on it before I HAVE to replace it. I told him that I was bummed, because I would have had them just replace it while they were in there to avoid a potential catastrophe. He knew that I was about to go on a trip to the beach with it (350 mile round trip) and said that he'd check everything again just to be 100% sure.

So I came back Friday evening with my mom (she picked me up so I can go grab the bike). I reiterated that I was nervous about the ticking and so the shop said that they'd call me Monday to set up a time to drop it off. However, the technician told me in front of my mom and the manager that I'd 100% be ok to ride down to ocean city. That I had nothing to worry about.

Ticking remained the whole time (and there's still a dead spot in the carbs) and then motor went boom. I can see the cam itself and the chain is no longer on it. It looks like the tensioner failed and the chain popped off.

[DmbShn41]

Originally Posted by rmorse

Good news! The ticking is gone.

Bad news! The front of my motor blew up while I was doing 80MPH.

Good news, you're getting a new engine...right? Paid for by the shop that did the most recent valve job, but having installed at another shop.....right?

(subscribed....sorry, drama and bikes...i'm hooked)

[rmorse]

I'll let you guys know what happens. I was getting bored with this bike anyway... I want a Daytona 675R or a supermoto.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by rmorse

........... It looks like the tensioner failed and the chain popped off.

Very sorry to read that

That was exactly what happened !!!

And then the valves may have contacted the pistons, either perforating those or bending themselves or both.

[rmorse]

Meh, it's all good. I never hit the pavement and I'm home now. Just had a long tow truck ride lol. Definitely curious to see what the shop says tmw

[DmbShn41]

Originally Posted by DmbShn41

Good news, you're getting a new engine Daytona...right? Paid for by the shop that did the most recent valve job, but having installed at another shop.....right?

(subscribed....sorry, drama and bikes...i'm hooked)

[rmorse]

Hahahahaha I wish. That would be awesome.

[Roark]

hot dang, man... Sorry for your loss.

I really hope it's covered under a warrantee or something because from my own experience, what the technician "says" vs what he "writes" tend to be different things!

Best of luck!

[rmorse]

The saving grace is going to be him telling me this repeatedly in front of the manager and my mother. He told us both that the bike would 100% be fine for this trip, because I was telling them that I'd rather leave it instead of risk something like this happening

[MrAtom]

Keep us updated for sure. I get off to motorcycle drama, too :-P

[rmorse]

I love getting you guys off.










Wait, that came out wrong

[MrAtom]

Originally Posted by rmorse

I love getting you guys off.










Wait, that came out wrong

[DmbShn41]

Unsubscribing...

[rmorse]

Update!

Talked to the shop today and they definitely seem to be taking ownership of this ordeal, thankfully. They're picking the bike up today or tmw and they told me that they'd repair the motor or they'd drop in a used motor. Repairing the motor ain't gonna happen...the case is ka-boom. As far as dropping in a used motor? I dunno about that one... I mean, these guys took a month and a half to incorrectly do a 7 hour job which lasted 175 miles.

I offered them the idea of giving me store credit towards a new bike, which they seemed open to. Sooo, how much do think my bike is worth?

2008 Ninja 250R, about 18,5k miles.
Clips ons, rearsets, something adjustable on the top of the forks (from previous owner), HMF pipe, nice adjustable levers, gorilla alarm, black windshield, led sidemarkers, blah blah blah. Never hit the ground, very few scratches. I live in DC area. I'm thinking in the neighborhood of $3k-3500?

[cuong-nutz]

I would say maybe 3300 With all the stuff.

[subxero]

well you need to talk to them about how your store credit is going to work.

The bike as is with broken motor, worth $1500 tops but I can't see you getting much more than $1k for it. It's hard to say I'm just spit balling.

You would probably be better parting it out as far as making cash on it goes.

So they destroyed your motor, they will only give you credit for... well a motor. $500 maybe? The rest of your bike is fine and is still yours. If it was me, I would also demand refund of what I paid them to **** it up in the first place so another few hundred $.

So if you sell your busted bike for $1300 and get $1000 in store credit that gives you $2300 to work with for a new bike. I doubt they would have given you that much in trade value when your bike was running but you could have probably sold it for $2500 - $3k. What will they give you in trade value for your busted bike as is if anything? Could use trade in amount and give you store credit if they would take the bike for a fair amount (doubltful)

So other option, get them to fix it on their dollar and you have your bike back, and again see if you can't get some store credit or refund for the shotty work that destroyed your motor in the first place, could use towards gear whatever if they sell gear. Your bike fixed could go for $2500 - $3k expecting much more than $3k I feel is wishful thinking. JMO You could always just keep it after it is fixed.

All your options kinda suck, the big things for me would be how much is that shop going to give me in credit and what can I use it towards along with how much can I get for the non running ninja?

As a dealer they have some flexibility with selling their bikes so if you play hardball with them you might be able to make out alright.

Sorry for the rambling, good luck

[rmorse]

Originally Posted by subxero

well you need to talk to them about how your store credit is going to work.

The bike as is with broken motor, worth $1500 tops but I can't see you getting much more than $1k for it. It's hard to say I'm just spit balling.

You would probably be better parting it out as far as making cash on it goes.

So they destroyed your motor, they will only give you credit for... well a motor. $500 maybe? The rest of your bike is fine and is still yours. If it was me, I would also demand refund of what I paid them to **** it up in the first place so another few hundred $.

So if you sell your busted bike for $1300 and get $1000 in store credit that gives you $2300 to work with for a new bike. I doubt they would have given you that much in trade value when your bike was running but you could have probably sold it for $2500 - $3k. What will they give you in trade value for your busted bike as is if anything? Could use trade in amount and give you store credit if they would take the bike for a fair amount (doubltful)

So other option, get them to fix it on their dollar and you have your bike back, and again see if you can't get some store credit or refund for the shotty work that destroyed your motor in the first place, could use towards gear whatever if they sell gear. Your bike fixed could go for $2500 - $3k expecting much more than $3k I feel is wishful thinking. JMO You could always just keep it after it is fixed.

All your options kinda suck, the big things for me would be how much is that shop going to give me in credit and what can I use it towards along with how much can I get for the non running ninja?

As a dealer they have some flexibility with selling their bikes so if you play hardball with them you might be able to make out alright.

Sorry for the rambling, good luck

Thanks for the input. I'm actually looking for what people think the bike WAS worth, right before it blew up. So with a working motor with about 18,500 miles on it. That's what I'm working with the shop with.

EDIT: Just saw that you said $2500-$3000. Thanks.

This whole thing is one giant headache. :-/

[spooph]

@rmorse - You're thinking in the right direction. Subxero is also on the right track...

1.) The dealership must refund in full what they charged you for the service work.
2.) The dealership must repair the motorcycle to it's original functionality OR
3.) Provide you KBB value before they screwed it up. (IE, what insurance would give you - do you have coverage for the additional parts - for me I check the "more than $5K worth of upgrades on the bike on my insurance form).

If they choose to go with option 2, a full engine rebuild, as metal bits from the explosion will destroy bearings and such. Make sure they give you all the old parts they replace and state that you will not accept the bike without those parts in a box along with the repaired motorcycle. I mean everything, rubber seals, gaskets, everything... If you want a list of things you'll see in the box, I can provide that.

If you really wanted to play hard ball you could ask for pictures/documentation of all the damage inside the engine as they rebuild it.

DO NOT allow them to swap in a used engine. You and they do not know where that engine has come from. If they want to replace the engine with a brand new crate motor, that would be a reasonable alternative.

If they say they didn't destroy a brand new engine, and that another engine with similar mileage will be good enough you tell them that you've followed all recommended maintenance procedures and that the engine was in tip top shape. With your low mileage, that is not an unreasonable claim.

If they spin you a story that these are small engines that wear quickly tell them you are not an ignorant consumer and that you know these engines will see 70K without breaking a sweat, 100K with good maintenance.

Although you have a good relationships with them, dealerships survive and thrive, by screwing people and making them feel good about being screwed. If they aren't unhappy about the deal, they're taking advantage of you. If they agree to something too quickly, they're probably making out quite well. No, I'm not trying to get you to screw the dealership, just trying to help you get what you paid for (a maintained, running motorcycle).

Hope this helps.

[rmorse]

Awesome, thanks so much. They came and picked up the bike on Tuesday but haven't called me yet. I need to figure out a time to stop by and clarify what's actually going on since I have no idea what they're up to right now.

[rmorse]

Dealer looked at the bike after I stopped by today and bitched some more. They offered me $900 on trade-in (they still have the $650 I paid, so they really offered me $250) and that made me pretty pissed so I walked out.

I called them back to tell them to not throw away any of the used parts because I would like to verify things. The service manager told me to hang on and then came back on the phone to tell me that it blew due to oil starvation from extended high revs. Not their fault.

So, here's my question... Wtf did they do? I've put like 10k miles on this bike myself and rode it no differently. Not inky that, but this was only like 25 miles of highway riding when it blew. I had already made it down to Ocean City and this was a couple days later on the return trip. They said something about the wrist pin breaking or twisting. These bikes can handle the extended high rpms that I was doing, and I was rolling around 85 when it happened. Any suggestions? They said that the cam chain was still attached. I told them I'll let them know when the lawsuit is. I just kinda want a verification or another explanation. I can post the couple pictures I have.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by rmorse

........... and then came back on the phone to tell me that it blew due to oil starvation from extended high revs. Not their fault.

So, here's my question... Wtf did they do?..........

I feel extremely sorry for your situation.
Technical details and the justice system don't mix well.
That is one of the reasons that none of my bikes have visited a "mechanical shop".

I can only tell you that I have a pre-gen that remains rolling on the highway at 10K rpm sustained for one hour, twice each day, for several years, without one single problem.
I check the oil level each Saturday and only add some every two or three weeks.

Unless they measured the level of oil before the accident, they have no proof that the level was low enough to starve the engine.
What "extended high revs" are and how one can demonstrate that an engine was above red-line for long time?

Copied from:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/What%27...%27s_engine%3F

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_I_check_my_oil%3F

"Your bike may consume oil while riding. If riding at high speeds, oil may need to be added as frequently as every tank of fuel (around 200 miles !!!)."

First things that fail when oil is scarce are the main bearings, the ones linking both connecting rods and the crankshaft: big noise and vibration come associated with that failure.
The pistons-rings normally follow in the steps of destruction: one feels rapid decreased power and overheating.
The oil light should be on by then.

IMHO, the noise previous to the break down has more chances of being the cause than oil after 30 miles of riding.

[Lemonfresh]

Originally Posted by rmorse

I can see the cam itself and the chain is no longer on it. It looks like the tensioner failed and the chain popped off.

These motor have interference heads. If a valve is open and the piston comes up, they will touch and bad things will happen.

The wrist pin in the piston likely failed because the cam chain came off, hanging a valve open, and the piston ran into it while doing 9k+ rpm.

When you look over the removed parts, take a close look at the pistons, you will be able to tell if it hit a valve.

I have done 4000+ miles on a '10 250 at freeway speeds. The motor didn't burn any oil and the cam shafts and head are in immaculate shape.

[skilletmo]

I would threaten to take their ass to court and leave as many bad reviews. Tell them a whole forum is behind you. I swear i will write the worst reviews and tell my buddies to do the same. They will lose so much business with the reviews and the court case. I know it might be immature, but i know the feeling and it is very unpleasant to have someone cheat you and then try to blame it on you. This is the exact reason why i do all my motorcycle work my self. I dont care if it takes me 5 days of research and 5 days of labor. My bike has never been touched by another mechanic and never will be. @Motofool knows how many questions i ask when i work on my bike haha, but i get it done! Plus the feeling and knowledge you learn from the research and actually applying that research on the bike is very satisfying!

[xorbe]

Originally Posted by rmorse

The service manager told me to hang on and then came back on the phone to tell me that it blew due to oil starvation from extended high revs. Not their fault.

Don't ever give them another cent.

[subxero]

crooks, lawyer up.

[rmorse]

Can you guys tell me what I'm looking at here? I thought that that was the crank, where the cam chain is supposed to be attached to. Am I wrong?

[spooph]

wow, that's where it blew out?
What blew out?
That's the counter balancer mesh gear and shaft that's exposed... A chunk of metal somewhere else in the engine might have fallen down and gotten in between the counter balancer to crank shaft mesh and blown out the case.

I'd have to really look at the bike and probably disassemble the engine to know what really happened...

For a valve job, nothing happens on that side of the engine... Something must have come from the bottom end - a piece of a bearing, due to oil starvation maybe as everybody has said, gotten in between the crank/counterbalancer mesh, which pushed the counter balancer shaft out and blew out the case, maybe?

Regardless, they touched the bike, you rode the bike without touching it and then it blew up the motor. It's still their responsibility. EVEN if you held the engine on the rev limiter for an hour, this shouldn't happen - sure you'll shorten the life but other things would break, this shouldn't happen...

If they're going to play hard ball, take them to small claims. Don't even talk to them, the more you try and handle this situation, the more time they have to scramble. Go talk to a lawyer and have that lawyer write them a letter, blah blah. When in court, please don't try and make money on the deal, just stick with what they owe you - a new engine and a full refund on the services rendered ~ $2,700. Once that is settled, make sure the rest of the world knows it. If this is how they treat a repeat customer, they have no business being in business... If you can get the name of the tech that worked on your bike, that would be even better... Then ship me your engine and I'll rebuild it for you, lol.

Unfortunately this is a pretty regular happening. A few years back I caught a local shop forgetting to put parts back. They gave me the parts after I found them in their shop and I said I'll install them myself...

[Lemonfresh]

That is not a wrist pin failure.

[rmorse]

Originally Posted by Lemonfresh

That is not a wrist pin failure.

What is it then?

[spooph]

I still think it was a piece of metal that got in between the counter balancer and crank shaft gears causing the counter balancer to "buck" and blow out the first bearing which was holding it place.... The sheer line all the way up and down the oil pressure sensor valley betrays that the force had to be coming from that side of the engine as this is otherwise a balanced system and they weren't in the bottom end (which requires a full engine tear down and splitting the cases) which leads me to think it was a foreign object rattling around in there.

[Motofool]

The most useful clue to complete that picture is what you felt during the break down.
Inmediately before and after details are key.
More pictures from different angles will help us.

[rmorse]

So, do you think they would have already removed that to cover their ass? Do you think I should take the bike to a different shop to have them look at it?

[rmorse]

Originally Posted by Motofool

The most useful clue to complete that picture is what you felt during the break down.
Inmediately before and after details are key.
More pictures from different angles will help us.

Almost immediate loss of power. It felt like the bike started slowing down. I was in a tuck and immediately sat up and looked at my gauges. Revs and speed started falling. I glanced in the mirror and saw blue smoke and pulled in the clutch. I then coasted to the side. Oil light didn't come on until I pulled in the clutch and started coasting.

[spooph]

Originally Posted by rmorse

Oil light didn't come on until I pulled in the clutch and started coasting.

Makes sense as the engine was no longer turning under it's own ability, once the forward motion was disconnected from the engine nothing was pumping oil anymore... However, that might just be a coincidence since the sensor was obviously blown clear of the engine....

[MrAtom]

Updates?