Knee out, NOT down

[backinthesaddleagain]

I find when I ride tight corners on the street I tend to stick my knee out in the direction of the turn, maybe as a safety blanket. I don't get one cheek off the seat but I do get my upper body towards the inside of the turn and maybe slide my butt over an inch or two also if its a really tight corner taken at a quick pace. Should I keep working the same turns with the goal of keeping the knees squeezing the tank instead of sticking out? Thanks.

[00NissanNinja]

I've actually done that a couple times, not that i had my knee sticking far out though. I didn't really notice a change though it felt like the bike was more balanced the way I do it.

[Flashmonkey]

I don't stick my knee out cuz I don't want some yahoo cop bustin' me for street riding hahaha.

I do tend to slide to the inside when I'm turning, though. Also which helps me load the inside peg, whenever I remember to do it.

[JeffM]

I've been thinking about this lately. I slide off the seat and point my chin in the direction I'm turning and this puts my upper body to the inside of the turn also. I tend to stick out a knee just a bit also ( I'm doing this in my avatar photo). I'm not sure if the knee being out makes any difference at street plus a little speeds. Some of this might be that it is a little bit more comfortable for me than keeping my inside knee crammed against the tank.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Going to make a conscious effort to keep the knee to the tank. Think I am sticking out the inside knee as a safety blanket.

[edbro]

I get in that sort of position for every turn. I guess out of habit, for every turn, regardless of speed, I get half my ass off the seat, hang my upper body towards inside the of the turn, and stick my knee out.

You can still squeeze the tank with your outside knee, at least that is what I do.

[backinthesaddleagain]

In the group I ride with I have the least road experience and am the only one sticking out the knee, so I feel I am doing it for some reason other than necessity.

[JMcDonald]

One thing that I've found definitely does not transfer over from dirtbiking is body position while cornering. On dirt, you typically let the bike do the steering, and pretty much always find yourself on the outside of the bike for better balance, rather than on the inside for whatever traction there could be had on dirt. So, I found I tend to want to lean the bike over further than my upper body when turning harder, and it is a habit I have been trying to break. If I think about it, I can do a sweeping turn with my torso on the correct side of the bike, but it is not habit and even still feels a little awkward vs letting the bike do the leaning.

[ally99]

Hey Greg. Here's my . "Sticking a knee out" by itself does very little to aid in traction reserve. The whole point of good form through a corner is to keep the bike more upright through the corner which provides you with a fractionally larger amount of traction for the unexpected.
I don't drag knee on public roads (will one day at a track!), but I do try to practice good form through every corner. My cornering style is to set my body position prior to any lean. I slide my butt back on the seat and then over toward the inside of the corner so I have half a cheek off the seat while weighting the inside peg. On really tight corners, I tend to use my outside leg to grip the tank as I'm leaned. Also, lower your upper body and most importantly keep your nose pointed in the direction you want to go. Keep that upper body LOOSE (which is why it's important to already be completely in position before you begin your lean).
I would continue practicing proper form with your goal to keep as much traction under your tires as you can, so that would mean continuing to practice sliding to the inside of the corner and sticking out that knee along with the other good form practices. Keith Code's, "Twist of the Wrist" and Lee Parks "Total Control" gave me a lot of insight to correct body position through corners. Have fun and ride safe!

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

One thing that I've found definitely does not transfer over from dirtbiking is body position while cornering. On dirt, you typically let the bike do the steering, and pretty much always find yourself on the outside of the bike for better balance, rather than on the inside for whatever traction there could be had on dirt. So, I found I tend to want to lean the bike over further than my upper body when turning harder, and it is a habit I have been trying to break. If I think about it, I can do a sweeping turn with my torso on the correct side of the bike, but it is not habit and even still feels a little awkward vs letting the bike do the leaning.

Well one major difference between street and dirt is in the dirt you typically weight the outside peg through a turn (especially helpful in off camber turns) and though I am mainly talking about street riding here rather than track riding, you don't need weight on the outside peg on the road. Many racers are hanging off so much that their outside foot is actually above the peg and their boot is pressing the outside of the bike. Off topic a bit in my own thread I guess.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by ally99

Hey Greg. Here's my . "Sticking a knee out" by itself does very little to aid in traction reserve. The whole point of good form through a corner is to keep the bike more upright through the corner which provides you with a fractionally larger amount of traction for the unexpected.
I don't drag knee on public roads (will one day at a track!), but I do try to practice good form through every corner. My cornering style is to set my body position prior to any lean. I slide my butt back on the seat and then over toward the inside of the corner so I have half a cheek off the seat while weighting the inside peg. On really tight corners, I tend to use my outside leg to grip the tank as I'm leaned. Also, lower your upper body and most importantly keep your nose pointed in the direction you want to go. Keep that upper body LOOSE (which is why it's important to already be completely in position before you begin your lean).
I would continue practicing proper form with your goal to keep as much traction under your tires as you can, so that would mean continuing to practice sliding to the inside of the corner and sticking out that knee along with the other good form practices. Keith Code's, "Twist of the Wrist" and Lee Parks "Total Control" gave me a lot of insight to correct body position through corners. Have fun and ride safe!

Don't sell yourself short - the advice is worth much more than 1 cent!

[bob706]

Sometime I'll stick a knee out going into a turn without thinking about but that's probably due to watching too much motogp

[JeffM]

Sean, watching too much motogp can be a very bad thing. Just don't start focusing on Rossi

Sorry to digress, so please, bact to topic.

[08ninja250]

He is so hard on the brakes right here!!!

[spooph]

I only ever feel comfortable sticking a knee out if I'm leaned off the bike completely, which never happens on the street. Even if I scootch my rear 2 or 3 inches off the seat, I'll still dig the inside knee into the bike and stay purchased on it. I find I feel the most solid fully hanging off the bike (because I can tuck the seat into the back-side of my knee), or being straight on the seat (making as much contact with knees and legs as possible). Not sure if this helps you, or how you feel comfortable on a bike. Not sure if my long legs have anything to do with it either. 34" inseam. Hopefully this helps.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Don't sell yourself short - the advice is worth much more than 1 cent!

Good, cause it was my 2 cents! hehe

I know you didn't need to read all that advice, but sometimes I offer it up on related threads anyway b/c it makes me think through my own cornering style. I learn a lot by thinking through things (or as DH says, over thinking things...sure, just semantics. lol!)

[backinthesaddleagain]

^^^ ha well my 5 cents says that I did read your entire post. I have always found on dirtbikes I moved around alot on the bike, and am trying to not mover around so much on the road, but I think in hindsight when I point out my knee I am moving my body toward the turn (including the butt). However fast, smooth friends of mine are taking the same corners w/o any body english, but maybe they are leaning over more than me. Would be out trying it, but its been pouring since monday.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

Hey Greg. Here's my . "Sticking a knee out" by itself does very little to aid in traction reserve. The whole point of good form through a corner is to keep the bike more upright through the corner which provides you with a fractionally larger amount of traction for the unexpected.
I don't drag knee on public roads (will one day at a track!), but I do try to practice good form through every corner. My cornering style is to set my body position prior to any lean. I slide my butt back on the seat and then over toward the inside of the corner so I have half a cheek off the seat while weighting the inside peg. On really tight corners, I tend to use my outside leg to grip the tank as I'm leaned. Also, lower your upper body and most importantly keep your nose pointed in the direction you want to go. Keep that upper body LOOSE (which is why it's important to already be completely in position before you begin your lean).
I would continue practicing proper form with your goal to keep as much traction under your tires as you can, so that would mean continuing to practice sliding to the inside of the corner and sticking out that knee along with the other good form practices. Keith Code's, "Twist of the Wrist" and Lee Parks "Total Control" gave me a lot of insight to correct body position through corners. Have fun and ride safe!

+1 to almost all of the above

What is the point of dragging a knee in the first place, and can you have really good body postion and riding form if stay more in the middle of the bike and squeeze the tank with both of your knees? When might you need to start hanging off and dragging a knee?

Misti

[backinthesaddleagain]

^^ Sticking out knee NOT trying to drag a knee.

Too me it feels odd to press the inside knee against the bike. Might be from years of riding dirtbike that I want to stick my leg out, but know that I shouldn't so the foot stays on the peg (albeit pointed into the turn), but the knee goes out pointing to the turn's inside also.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Misti

+1 to almost all of the above

What is the point of dragging a knee in the first place, and can you have really good body postion and riding form if stay more in the middle of the bike and squeeze the tank with both of your knees? When might you need to start hanging off and dragging a knee?

Misti

Hm, don't know, that's why I don't drag knee on roads. lol! But to be weighting the inside peg, it just feels more natural for my knee to be hanging out too. I'd feel less relaxed and more tense if I gripped with both knees through a tight corner.
When might I need to hang off and drag? When I'm in it for pure and unadulterated fun and adrenaline (aka: only on a track. lol!)

[TrueFader]

my 2 cents, you are weighting the outside peg for better ground clearance, it is your best pivot point. the knee is a guide to see how much room you have left to lean. you're pushing yourself off the bike to the inside and the knee being out is a byproduct of comfortable riding position. i only tuck it in for track curbing and the dots on the double yellow. (those hurt to hit your knee on at speed). so feel free to tuck the knee to the bike if you're concerned about it contacting the ground,or if it's more comfortable for you, but i support getting comfortable with it out to guage lean angle. just tap it on the ground to know how far is left.

[backinthesaddleagain]

FWIW my knee is nowhere near the ground. If going left, it just feels weird to press my left knee to the right, against the tank. Seems like the knee should go with the flow, but most street riders I ride with (aka follow) have both knees pressed into the tank.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by TrueFader

my 2 cents, you are weighting the outside peg for better ground clearance, it is your best pivot point. the knee is a guide to see how much room you have left to lean. you're pushing yourself off the bike to the inside and the knee being out is a byproduct of comfortable riding position. i only tuck it in for track curbing and the dots on the double yellow. (those hurt to hit your knee on at speed). so feel free to tuck the knee to the bike if you're concerned about it contacting the ground,or if it's more comfortable for you, but i support getting comfortable with it out to guage lean angle. just tap it on the ground to know how far is left.

Very good points here. The knee is used as a guide to see how far you are leaned over. For many street riders there is no need to have the knee out as they are not leaned over that far and don't need the gauge. For some it is more comfortable to have both knees pressing into the tank as it helps to keep the lower body stable on the bike which in turn allows the upper body to remain relaxed. For others they like to let the knee flop out. Whatever feels better or works best for you.

You can still have really good body position on the bike if you are sitting straight up and down without hanging off or dragging a knee provided that you are going with the bike and not counter-leaning or crossing up.

What does being crossed up do to the amount of lean angle you use while cornering? Increase or decrease it?

Misti

[austexjg]

Crossed up? Meaning that the head and shoulders are not in line with the lower portion - creating a "C" shape if leaning to the left?

Would it increase lean angle?

[JeffM]

Crossed up riding increases the lean of the bike.

Example



I swear that was the best photo I could find, really .

[TrueFader]

crossed up is but out and shoulders still in line with the bike not the body, you look twisted, i guess like a "c" if in a left turn. ya increases lean angle when you dont need to.

did you do a search for crossed up or thong?

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by JeffM

I swear that was the best photo I could find, really.

This example bears repeating!

[JeffM]

Aside from the thong. I also noticed that the rider is targed fixated at the wall to her right. She should be looking left toward the exit of the corner. If she was pointing her chin in the direction she wanted to go, her upper body would naturally follow.

Here is a great example of body positioning and how it relates to lean angle.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Been making a conscious effort to keep both knees pressed into the tank, or at least the inside one not sticking out. Now if I could keep the thong from sticking out...

[addy126]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

This example bears repeating!

I second that! lol

[addy126]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Aside from the thong. I also noticed that the rider is targed fixated at the wall to her right. She should be looking left toward the exit of the corner. If she was pointing her chin in the direction she wanted to go, her upper body would naturally follow.

Here is a great example of body positioning and how it relates to lean angle.

Just a question (may have been asked before).... what is the sole purpose of putting the knee down and hurrahing about touching the pavement with same? Is it just a He-Man thing or is it performance enhancing.... for the bike that is.

[rockNroll]

Originally Posted by addy126

Just a question (may have been asked before).... what is the sole purpose of putting the knee down and hurrahing about touching the pavement with same? Is it just a He-Man thing or is it performance enhancing.... for the bike that is.

The knee is a lean gauge, I can tell how far the bike is leaned over. In a pinch it can also be used to hold the bike up

[Havok]

Originally Posted by addy126

Just a question (may have been asked before).... what is the sole purpose of putting the knee down and hurrahing about touching the pavement with same? Is it just a He-Man thing or is it performance enhancing.... for the bike that is.

To tell how far the bike is leaned over. Only to be done on a track as you should never need that to be a guide on the streets.


To help keep your knee to the tank you can try pointing your toes to the inside of the bike as you load the footpegs, when I do this my knee goes naturally to the had tank.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Been making a conscious effort to keep both knees pressed into the tank, or at least the inside one not sticking out..

Screw that! Your better off using your knee

[Misti]

Originally Posted by TrueFader

crossed up is but out and shoulders still in line with the bike not the body, you look twisted, i guess like a "c" if in a left turn. ya increases lean angle when you dont need to.

did you do a search for crossed up or thong?

Hahaha, yep that is a good definition of crossed up and the photo certainly demonstrates that. Being crossed up or twisted on the bike does end up increasing lean angle when you don't need to. The rider ends up sort of "pushing the bike" underneath them. This is a very common mistake from a lot of riders and many people have a really difficult time breaking the habit.

Why do you think it is a hard habit to break and what are some suggestions you have for combating this problem?

How exactly does leaning with the bike help reduce its lean angle?

Misti

[ally99]

I imagine it's a hard habit to break b/c it's counter intuitive to get closer to the ground one wants to stay away from! It's kind of like a discussion hubby and I had last night regarding U-turns. They go SOOOOO beautifully if the nut attaching the seat to the handlebars can force itself to look WAY over its shoulder to where it wants to go rather than looking just a few feet ahead. To do this flawlessly means overcoming instincts. We instinctively look where we are going from the time we begin to walk. Along the same lines, getting oneself closer to the ground is another example of forcing mind over matter to overcome what doesn't "feel" natural. However, once it becomes habit, riding any other way feels odd.
It's a mind over matter thing to get there though. I learned by reading, studying pictures/diagrams, watching videos, and practicing on easy corners where I didn't really need to hang off. Doing this got me used to the different perspective I have from the side of my bike as well as the comfortable body position. When I was learning, hubby would pick on me when we'd take everyday twisty roads and I'd be practicing position when my speed and the corner didn't warrant it, but it was a more comfortable way for me to learn than waiting until a tight mountain twisty!

[JMcDonald]

I've been doing more and more leaning lately, and I have been consciously trying to be able to see my chin or collar in the inside mirror to make sure I am not crossing up.

I also started gradually, leaning my head into turns, then shoulders, and only more recently have I actually started to slide my butt. I think it is when people trying to slide their butt (and stick their knee out because it looks m4d tyte, yo) BEFORE working at getting their torso into the turn, that you get the crossing-up.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by ally99

I imagine it's a hard habit to break b/c it's counter intuitive to get closer to the ground one wants to stay away from! It's kind of like a discussion hubby and I had last night regarding U-turns. They go SOOOOO beautifully if the nut attaching the seat to the handlebars can force itself to look WAY over its shoulder to where it wants to go rather than looking just a few feet ahead. To do this flawlessly means overcoming instincts. We instinctively look where we are going from the time we begin to walk. Along the same lines, getting oneself closer to the ground is another example of forcing mind over matter to overcome what doesn't "feel" natural. However, once it becomes habit, riding any other way feels odd.
It's a mind over matter thing to get there though. I learned by reading, studying pictures/diagrams, watching videos, and practicing on easy corners where I didn't really need to hang off. Doing this got me used to the different perspective I have from the side of my bike as well as the comfortable body position. When I was learning, hubby would pick on me when we'd take everyday twisty roads and I'd be practicing position when my speed and the corner didn't warrant it, but it was a more comfortable way for me to learn than waiting until a tight mountain twisty!

Really good points here. It is definitely counter-intuitive to lean with the bike and allow our bodies to get closer to the ground which is the place we really want to avoid. It is interesting though because doing the opposite and leaning away from the bike is going to make it that much more likely that we will hit the ground because it increases our lean angle. Keith Code calls these survival reactions, meaning that our minds and bodies react to certain situations automatically but not always in the ways we need them to. Overcoming these survival reactions takes effort, training and practice as you outlined.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

I've been doing more and more leaning lately, and I have been consciously trying to be able to see my chin or collar in the inside mirror to make sure I am not crossing up.

I also started gradually, leaning my head into turns, then shoulders, and only more recently have I actually started to slide my butt. I think it is when people trying to slide their butt (and stick their knee out because it looks m4d tyte, yo) BEFORE working at getting their torso into the turn, that you get the crossing-up.

This is a huge reason why a lot of people get crossed up- they try to hang their butts way too far off the seat. When you do this then you automatically need to hold onto the handlebars tightly to prevent yourself from falling off the bike and your body twists or rotates around the tank. You are better off keeping your butt firmly planted in the middle of the seat and just working on getting your upper body over and down as you mention.

So, once you started improving your body position and not riding twisted anymore were you able to notice any difference in the handling of the motorcylce? How does your body position on the bike influence things like suspension and handling?

Misti

[JMcDonald]

I started leaning my head and then torso at first because I simply knew it was a step in the right direction, and I was trying to break the detrimental habit from years of dirtbiking: leaning the bike while keeping your body upright. I did not notice much in the way of handling, and attributed any perceived increase in traction to luck / the surface / other things unrelated to my skill, etc.

However, now that I have gotten more used to shifting more of my weight off the bike, I am starting to see a definite difference. I ride about an average of an hour a day, and am improving my skills with every mile. And with this improvement, I am starting to see enough consistency to be able to tell what factors are causes observed differences. And I can DEFINITELY feel the increase in traction. It is not in-your-face or anything, but I notice when I hang off the bike pretty far (at least a full cheek off the seat, with my head behind the inside the mirror), I get much much less wavering of the tires (especially the rear). In doing this, rolling on the throttle is much more confidence-inspiring, whereas before it was almost a matter of hoping my tire sticks, rather than feeling that it will.

When I ride with my friend on his CBR, usually when we go on highway onramps and stuff (this is central Oklahoma--onramps are about the closest we can come to "twisties" without going real far away :P ), he stays about the same distance behind me. Last time we went out, taking my favorite ramp I looked in my mirror at the last turn's exit and saw I had put LENGTHS between us.... which he of course quickly deleted once the road straightened :P . But still, I am definitely starting to feel the difference.

One really funny thing is that even though I am now faster and have more traction through the same turns, my "chicken strips" are actually a little wider than they were before, due to more proper form for hard cornering. So, anytime someone gives you crap about chicken strips, show them that above image, and exlain how leaning the bike hard only shows how gutsy (and / or unskilled :P) a rider is, but has little relation to how fast he or she is actually taking the corner. This is not to say I am cornering to the max or anything, but it does show obviously that while I had narrower strips before and was riding closer to traction limits, I now have fewer traction concerns, corner with more speed, but am apparently more of a "chicken." :P

It's funny, when I started riding I never thought I would be into either racing fast or turning hard. I couldn't have cared less about doing track days, for fear of crashing my bike for the sake of what I didn't see as much enjoyment. Now, at least once a day I find myself trying to top out my bike ( :O ), and a good dozen times a day I find myself eager to see how I can work on my cornering form and if I can push just a little harder. It's like a drug, I tell you. Hell, I am even starting to consider a track day, despite the still-existant risk of crashing my bike, haha.

*edit*

Though, I don't know enough about general motorcycle handling to know if the suspension needs any tweaking, or more accurately in what way tweaking it could increase my performance.

*edit*

And as far as the original topic, I am not sticking my knee out either. I am not that comfortably yet. Though, I don't actually remember if it is against the tank or just close to it. I'll try to make a note of that next time.