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Old October 19th, 2022, 01:47 PM   #1
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98 pregen with 09 newgen swap

Hello All! So back in August, I was gifted a nonrunning 98 250 in Red missing most of the farings. It was sitting outside and did not have the valve cover on it. The story was it was given to him by a friend who went into the army, that friend said it ran but took the valve cover off to do maintenance and never got around to finishing it. No Key, No Title, Ran the VIN and it is clean with no record of thefts.


I dive into the engine and noticed a valve spring was missing, pulled the cams out, and noticed the hole in the wall between the springs. Turns out two valves came loose from the springs and punched holes in the piston and snapped the rod into three pieces. went further down to find out if a rebuild was possible but even the bottom case was shot with chunks out of the inner case.

|


So I decided to go for a new engine but finding one for a pregen has been difficult, so I found a running newgen 2009 with 10k miles for 600. here we are It just arrived and UPS dropped it, damaged the valve cover and possibly some pieces of the cover went down into the engine because I cannot find them lol.
Besides the shipping issue engine is super clean and looks to be in good shape.

I know certain parts such as front mounts, radiator, and exhaust all need changed, but is there any difference with the coil packs in terms of specs?

As well any suggestions as to what yall think ill need is helpful, currently working on a bracket for the radiator so I can use the pregen one since I have it.
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Old October 19th, 2022, 06:57 PM   #2
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Coil-packs have different connectors, but electronically interchangeable. In this swap, you can keep all of pre-gen harness and electronics.

Just need to swap in new-gen carb parts: main jets and needles. Bolt on new-gen exhaust and that's it!

I actually have factory new-gen exhaust and muffler if you need.
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Old October 19th, 2022, 09:06 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Coil-packs have different connectors, but electronically interchangeable. In this swap, you can keep all of pre-gen harness and electronics.

Just need to swap in new-gen carb parts: main jets and needles. Bolt on new-gen exhaust and that's it!

I actually have factory new-gen exhaust and muffler if you need.
Thanks! I didn't even think about carb jets! I actually just picked up the exhaust and it arrived just the other day. I was trying to fit the pregen Rad but it looks like if I do it will run into the exhaust unless the bracket I make kicks it out some. also Im going to do a slight S bend in the exhaust so I can keep the convenience of a center stand (usually the one thing people who saw my last ninja always said they wish they had)

This Bike will end up being a cafe/streetfighter style eventually. any suggestions on tanks that fit the style are welcome as well because there is a decent size dent in the stock one.
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Old October 19th, 2022, 09:11 PM   #4
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If I did this right here should be some photos of the bike when I picked it up and the original engine after tear down
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_20220815_182241842_HDR.jpg (157.8 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20220815_182251881.jpg (148.9 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20220820_233651469_HDR.jpg (124.0 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_20220820_152023675_HDR.jpg (69.5 KB, 8 views)
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Old October 20th, 2022, 05:57 AM   #5
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That's some damage alright! I have a 427 Chevy I need to rebuild. It has similar damage from a valve that broke off at the guide at high speed.
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Old October 20th, 2022, 09:19 AM   #6
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Wow, that's some serious damage!
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Old October 20th, 2022, 08:55 PM   #7
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Yeah, no idea what happened to it, surprised me when I took it apart.

Today just arrived some parts, Got a New battery Antigravity ATZ7, Both front, and rear master cylinder rebuild kits, and tapered bearings for the steering stem as it was binding. I have the original ignition and am working on getting a key made(my uncle is a locksmith) but in the meantime, I ordered a new ignition/tank cap set and plan to rekey the tank lock to the new key for OEM ignition. I just trust the OEM stuff more than the stuff off eBay.

Tomorrow comes the ignition set, and resistor and also get a borescope to add to my tool collection.

eBay seller does not seem to be interested in helping me out any by replacing the damaged valve cover. in my opinion, it could have been packed a lot better. was put into a box with packing peanuts and then placed in another box. literally would have taken just a few feet of 1x4 and run the mounting bolts through them and damage would have been avoided.
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Old October 21st, 2022, 01:36 AM   #8
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You can have brand-new keys made for existing locks by ordering here and sending key-code.

https://www.cyclekeysonline.com/
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Old October 21st, 2022, 07:40 AM   #9
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You can have brand-new keys made for existing locks by ordering here and sending key-code.

https://www.cyclekeysonline.com/

I looked everywhere for a key code but couldn't find it. checked ignition and helmet lock, unless it is inside the assembly I only found Part numbers
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Old October 21st, 2022, 07:57 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by cpayton0 View Post
I looked everywhere for a key code but couldn't find it. checked ignition and helmet lock, unless it is inside the assembly I only found Part numbers
Unscrew helmet lock from frame.
Key-code is on surface that's touching frame, so you can't see it unless removed.
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Old October 21st, 2022, 08:17 AM   #11
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Unscrew helmet lock from frame.
Key-code is on surface that's touching frame, so you can't see it unless removed.
How many digits should it be? because I took it off again and my fiancee has a new phone we were able to super zoom and I do faintly see numbers but I only see 3
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Old October 21st, 2022, 09:36 AM   #12
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Should be 1 letter and 3 numbers?
lemme go pull mine and take a look....

EDIT: 4 numbers

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Old October 21st, 2022, 09:57 AM   #13
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Should be 1 letter and 3 numbers?
lemme go pull mine and take a look....
yeah I appreciate it, because what I see is a number a possible letter, and 3 more numbers. then the part number on the bottom face
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Old October 21st, 2022, 10:06 AM   #14
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found some spare ones in box, simple enough. Don't bother trying to look for it with human eyes.



I used phone camera to zoom in and with some digital image-editing....

VIOLA!!!




Letter Z and 4 numbers
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Old October 21st, 2022, 10:18 AM   #15
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sweet that's awesome makes it that much easier. my punches aren't that clear lol
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Old October 21st, 2022, 10:45 AM   #16
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Yeah, might need some scrubbing with toothbrush.
Little rubbing with wet 400-grit sandpaper would help clean up surface making depressions easy to see.
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Old October 22nd, 2022, 09:46 AM   #17
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Does anyone know where I can buy just the needles for the 08-12 carb? I have a set of Keihin jets but im not trying to spend money on rebuild kits when I just need needles.
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Old October 22nd, 2022, 10:59 AM   #18
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@ducatiman should have the answer to that.
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Old October 22nd, 2022, 01:39 PM   #19
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Note that left & right needles are different.

N9VW goes in right carb https://www.ebay.com/itm/165729041362
N9VU goes in left carb https://www.ebay.com/itm/155211228165

Here's comparison of needles:


#2 is 88-07 pre-gen needle

#3 is 08-12 new-gen needle, it has thicker tip for less flow compared to pre-gen since it's tuned for more mid-range and less high-end

#4 is DynoJet stg-2 new-gen needle takes this difference further with even thicker tip to lean out high-end mixtures even more.
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Old October 23rd, 2022, 07:12 PM   #20
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Use factory 98 main jet with these. Will be quite rich in top-end with 10.0:1 AFR. Can pick up little bit of power by going down to 96.
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Old October 23rd, 2022, 08:53 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Note that left & right needles are different.

N9VW goes in right carb https://www.ebay.com/itm/165729041362
N9VU goes in left carb https://www.ebay.com/itm/155211228165

Here's comparison of needles:


#2 is 88-07 pre-gen needle

#3 is 08-12 new-gen needle, it has thicker tip for less flow compared to pre-gen since it's tuned for more mid-range and less high-end

#4 is DynoJet stg-2 new-gen needle takes this difference further with even thicker tip to lean out high-end mixtures even more.
Sweet thanks for the links too!!, It Looks like I also don't have the main jets I thought, it looks like my kit only goes to 100 so ill be needing those guess. I have never tuned carbs like this before. I've rebuilt tons of carbs but not changed anything off-stock settings. I do want to go to pods as I am working to get a cafe style in the end
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Old October 24th, 2022, 12:34 AM   #22
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Pods will give you lots of driveability issues: erractic idle, stumbling mid-range, dies in cross-winds, increased wear. For absolutely zero benefits. Don't do it.
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Old October 24th, 2022, 05:16 PM   #23
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Okay then I will reconsider and look into other options may still try it but im keeping the airbox so I can always return to stock.


Does anyone know a good site I can order electrical connectors for the bike as the temp sensor in the new rad has a 2-wire pigtail required, I went to my parts store and tried all that they have for cars and couldn't find a fit? Also can't find a diagram with a part number for this pigtail.
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Old October 24th, 2022, 05:59 PM   #24
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that's one oddball connector that's different from everything else on bike. Look for it here:

https://www.corsa-technic.com
https://www.easternbeaver.com
https://motorcycleconnectors.com
https://cycleterminal.com
https://www.automotiveconnectors.com...cessories.html
http://www.vintageconnections.com/

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Old October 25th, 2022, 06:25 PM   #25
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Sweet thank you, haven't had time to go through it all but looks like I probably can in one of them.
Another question I have seen posts about using CBR600RR COPs But never any years mentioned are they all the same for the model?

Im thinking of doing this because with the last ninja, I had tons of coil issues and feel this could potentially cut that down possibly, not to mention it will clean up the bike. As well my current coil packs and plugs are cheap aftermarkets from ebay for the 98 and don't fit well in the new engine.
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Old October 25th, 2022, 09:33 PM   #26
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Sure many people have done it. Some reported overheating ignitor due to lower impedance of stick coils drawing more current. Simple fix is to wire 2 of them in series to present similar loads to ignitor. Similar to this, just use single circuit.


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Old October 29th, 2022, 05:16 PM   #27
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Quote:
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Sure many people have done it. Some reported overheating ignitor due to lower impedance of stick coils drawing more current. Simple fix is to wire 2 of them in series to present similar loads to ignitor. Similar to this, just use single circuit.


not sure I understand, If the wiring in series does that mean it uses a wasted spark system?
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Old October 29th, 2022, 06:33 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by cpayton0 View Post
not sure I understand, If the wiring in series does that mean it uses a wasted spark system?
Oh wait sorry, firing order isn't even. Will have to keep them separate and use ballast-resistor on each stick.

Photo from recent project I did with adding stick coils on '89 CBR1000F. The '88 had reputation for frying ignitors, so didn't want to take any chances with overheating it by running lower-than-stock impedance coils.
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Old October 29th, 2022, 07:28 PM   #29
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Running a too-low impedance coil with a ballast resistor can be a good thing, and far better than two coils in series. At the start of charging the coil when the impedance is working against the current flowing, the coil will see full battery voltage. Then as current begins to flow, the voltage across the coil will drop, and eventually reach steady state at the value determined by the effective voltage divider. It's like the way a 5v stepper motor running on a 12v source though a dropping resistor has better torque at high speed than a similar 12v motor without the resistor.
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Old October 29th, 2022, 11:12 PM   #30
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What resistor do y'all suggest I get? I must admit im not good with math and understanding formulas, I've been researching on and off tonight and do not quite understand what I need to get in order to achieve the correct readings. I've seen a few posts on COP conversions but even though people mention adding the resistors no one that I have seen says exactly what the specs are for the one they have or how to get the correct one at least.


I metered the CBR600RR COPs I have and they all meter at primary 1.7Ω & secondary 13.31kΩ with one being slightly off at 13.62kΩ

And I really appreciate everyone who has input so far!
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Old October 30th, 2022, 05:38 AM   #31
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Quote:
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I metered the CBR600RR COPs I have and they all meter at primary 1.7Ω & secondary 13.31kΩ with one being slightly off at 13.62kΩ
Did you subtract the resistance of the meter leads? (touch leads together, read ohms, then subtract that from the reading you get for the coil primary)

Once you get that, measure a stock coil the same way. The resistor you need is the stock resistance minus the COP resistance.
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Old October 30th, 2022, 04:12 PM   #32
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Did you subtract the resistance of the meter leads? (touch leads together, read ohms, then subtract that from the reading you get for the coil primary)

Once you get that, measure a stock coil the same way. The resistor you need is the stock resistance minus the COP resistance.
Okay, I didn't ever think about lead resistance, so that means the coils are actually 1.5Ω.

The stuff I was finding online kept bringing me to complicated calculations, I appreciate it, and thank you for explaining.
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Old October 30th, 2022, 06:30 PM   #33
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Then with the resistors the hope is that the COP setup will run at least as well as the stock system.
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Old October 30th, 2022, 09:07 PM   #34
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Then with the resistors the hope is that the COP setup will run at least as well as the stock system.
I've seen some threads on COP conversions where they didn't use resistors and had no issues and once the COPs were warmed up they ran at the same impedance as stock ones and experienced no ill effect. So I am curious about if i should try this and if there is any negative effect on the ignitor boxes, I have a spare set from my 07 that was junked a few years ago.
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Old October 30th, 2022, 09:17 PM   #35
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Sure give it a try.
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Old November 7th, 2022, 08:41 AM   #36
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Alright so its in and it Runs! ill post a video when i have a chance to. It sounds..Okay �� for sure needs some carb tuning as it doesn't stay steady at idle and will jump up and slowly drift back down.
Not getting any reading from my thermostat and there seems to be excess noise coming from the cam chain
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Old November 7th, 2022, 09:13 AM   #37
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Woohoo!!!
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Old November 7th, 2022, 10:00 AM   #38
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Here is the video

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old November 7th, 2022, 10:46 PM   #39
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Anyone have any ideas

I reset the CCT maybe made a slight difference but not much if any. I got a muffler on it so we can hear it a bit better. Its a lot noisier than my 2007 was


Link to original page on YouTube.


Last futzed with by Alex; November 8th, 2022 at 02:38 PM. Reason: edited video link (just put the youtube video code itself in between youtube tags)
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Old November 9th, 2022, 05:41 PM   #40
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Name: Cameron
Location: Cape Coral
Join Date: May 2017

Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250

Posts: 31
yeah so i guess i need to do valves
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