I can't fix this bike... Help

[Jeeves]

So i bought my 250 about two weeks ago and all it could do was hardly idle, sat for a while. I went and cleaned it out and got i running, drove around town last weekend putting 20 miles on it. Only issue being a hang idle that wouldn't come down from 4k rpm on its own, had to use the clutch to force the motor to slow down, then it would stay.
But Tuesday night i went to fire it up and it wouldnt come off choke and it would die with any use of the throttle and after sitting a minute it reved up to 4k rpm. Since then ive cleaned the carbs out twice checked all the hoses and still no difference. Even turning the idle screws in all the way didnt phase the bike. Im completely lost as too whats wrong, ive spent days searching for anything else to check to fix this, if i cant get this soon its going to go to the dealer which i know will cost alot more than it should.

So if anyone has any ideas please let me know.

[GeorgeRYoung]

Sounds like the idle passages are clogged.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...n_the_carbs%3F

[Jeeves]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRYoung

Sounds like the idle passages are clogged.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...n_the_carbs%3F

They're spotless, i can easily spray carb cleaner into the pilot jet and it sprays from either the idle mix screw ports or the 4 holes.

[jschatte]

If it helps any, my bike hung around 4k when it was running lean. Turning the idle screws in all the way would cause the bike to continue running lean, so it would still hang. Turned the mixture screws both out to roughly 3 turns (more fuel), and hanging was no longer an issue.

[Jiggles]

Shouldn't you already know what to do?

[Motofool]

I would check the throttle cables; even disconnect them from the carbs to test this problem.

They should have a little slack when the engine is at idle and the spring of the butterfly valve should be able to close it all the way.

Many people forget to lubricate that exterior part of the carbs.

[Jeeves]

Originally Posted by jschatte

If it helps any, my bike hung around 4k when it was running lean. Turning the idle screws in all the way would cause the bike to continue running lean, so it would still hang. Turned the mixture screws both out to roughly 3 turns (more fuel), and hanging was no longer an issue.

That was the problem, being turned out at 2.5 turns wasnt enough, 3 turns each has it running again. So far i have put another 30 miles on it with no issues.

Thank you alot.

[jschatte]

Originally Posted by Jeeves

That was the problem, being turned out at 2.5 turns wasnt enough, 3 turns each has it running again. So far i have put another 30 miles on it with no issues.

Thank you alot.

Awesome! glad to hear you got it all sorted out.

[Jeeves]

I do have a potential problem now, not sure as this is my first bike. But whenever im going down the road and close the throttle the bike acts like its engine braking, it doesnt just roll along no matter the gear. I can be in 6th gear going 45 mph and let off the throttle and it bucks like i down shifted. I dont think its normal but im still new to bikes.

Any thoughts?

[alex.s]

normal for a manual transmission.

[Jeeves]

Originally Posted by alex.s

normal for a manual transmission.

A bikes manual right?

Because this is not like a cars manual gearbox. If you want to compare it to a car its like keeping the car in a gear or two too low, where when you do let off it is engine braking.

[alex.s]

suppose you are in 6th gear doing 65mph. and you let off the throttle completely with no clutch or brakes. it should take about 2 seconds to get to 55.

part of the difference is engine compression ratio. another big difference is the weight of the bike/rider vs a car.

[Jeeves]

Originally Posted by alex.s

suppose you are in 6th gear doing 65mph. and you let off the throttle completely with no clutch or brakes. it should take about 2 seconds to get to 55.

part of the difference is engine compression ratio. another big difference is the weight of the bike/rider vs a car.

Ok that clears it up. It was just a little unsettling the bike diving when i would completely let off the throttle.

Thanks.

[alex.s]

you are letting off the throttle too quickly

[debhofv]

I feel your pain. Pulling carbs on my 04 wasn't my idea of fun...and they're still not right. Thru 1/4 throttle it's crap. Bogging, major lag time, can't "roll" the throttle thru corners...I'm not happy. Bought her used with 76 miles last year. I've got 1200 on her now. Paid Kawi $550. last year- running but not right. I found and replaced cracked fuel line, tweeked fuel filter at carb intake and float shut off stuck 2 weeks ago. It was pretty clean in there, pulled and cleaned all jets anyway. Idle screws today. Left responded as expected, right did not respond. So I rode it for 30 miles. She's a death trap as she sits. I'm not happy. I don't know where to go next. CA bike with all the emissions crap. I'm broke and can't afford to pay shop rate to take her to the "Kawi God" at the moment, and I can't believe there's something I'm missing.
What am I missing?

[greg737]

Do both of your carbs have all their parts?

Might sound like a stupid question but some of the threads around here lately have proven just how easy it is to lose the needle seats from one or both the carbs while cleaning them.

Apparenlty when folks are disassembling their carbs for cleaning and they come to the part where they remove the needle and the vacuum diaphram they get very tightly focused on those parts and meanwhile the little needle seat just falls quietly out of the carb onto the garage floor and rolls away under the lawn mower.

[debhofv]

I believe all the parts are present and accounted for. Didn't take the slides out. Actuated in place as expected.
Couldn't sleep so I've been up since 3am reading the shop manual-again.
So far I'm thinking: it's got hot plugs in NGKCR7HS- change back to CR8HSA
Air filter didn't seem to have oil. Double check that.
Remove and replace idle air screws tho they looked fine. 2 turns out per the manual
Drain the tank of 91 octane and put in 87
Can do a float level test without removing carbs
**Coast Enrichment System. Did not inspect while off. Did find a vac line off 2 days ago- not certain when I knocked that off. I believe
it ran better with it off. I've reinstalled, of course. Makes me want to go hummm. Appears I can inspect while on the bike.
Separator test- can do on the bike.
Triple check all hoses, routing. Checked for vac leaks, found none.

Keep in mind, please, 04 with 1200 miles, bought used at 76 miles late last year, started and died. Had sat with fuel for aprox a year when I bought it. Trailer it to Kawi dealer. 2 weeks and $550 later (creamed the tank, replaced petcock and "cleaned and adjusted carbs") they gave me a song and dance about "a bad batch of carbs in 04" and recommended I replace them for $1200 additional.

I really don't want to pull these off again. The airbox being in the way means I muscled them out the down and dirty method- which about killed me. I'm simply not as strong as the boots are stiff. I'll do it if I have to, of course. I want to eliminate all other possibilities.

Thanks again for your help, ideas, thoughts and general knowledge

[davenay67]

Originally Posted by debhofv

I believe all the parts are present and accounted for. Didn't take the slides out. Actuated in place as expected.
Couldn't sleep so I've been up since 3am reading the shop manual-again.
So far I'm thinking: it's got hot plugs in NGKCR7HS- change back to CR8HSA
Air filter didn't seem to have oil. Double check that.
Remove and replace idle air screws tho they looked fine. 2 turns out per the manual
Drain the tank of 91 octane and put in 87
Can do a float level test without removing carbs
**Coast Enrichment System. Did not inspect while off. Did find a vac line off 2 days ago- not certain when I knocked that off. I believe
it ran better with it off. I've reinstalled, of course. Makes me want to go hummm. Appears I can inspect while on the bike.
Separator test- can do on the bike.
Triple check all hoses, routing. Checked for vac leaks, found none.

Keep in mind, please, 04 with 1200 miles, bought used at 76 miles late last year, started and died. Had sat with fuel for aprox a year when I bought it. Trailer it to Kawi dealer. 2 weeks and $550 later (creamed the tank, replaced petcock and "cleaned and adjusted carbs") they gave me a song and dance about "a bad batch of carbs in 04" and recommended I replace them for $1200 additional.

I really don't want to pull these off again. The airbox being in the way means I muscled them out the down and dirty method- which about killed me. I'm simply not as strong as the boots are stiff. I'll do it if I have to, of course. I want to eliminate all other possibilities.

Thanks again for your help, ideas, thoughts and general knowledge

From your first post in this thread, it sounds as though you may be running rich.
When you blip the throttle at idle, do the revs shoot up and come back down slowly (lean), or does the bike stutter/stumble a bit before the revs shoot up (rich)..??

Have you pulled the spark plugs recently..?? I would recommend doing this and seeing what the colour on the tips is like. Black and sooty is rich, brown is nice, white is lean.

Dave.

[debhofv]

Did just pull the plugs. At this mileage they look pretty new, difficult to read. I'd have to lean towards right on or lean if I had to make a call, def not rich. But I did note they are the "hot" plugs.
At full temp: when I blip from 1500 rpms it will respond, but won't always go back to idle. It will dip way down or even stall. When I hold to 3K then release the throttle it will often stumble below 800 rpms or stall. It's inconsistent.
I'd hoped that riding it would help it settle in to a well defined pattern I could hunt down. It didn't. Went into a beautiful, banked sweeping left in the mountains, 4th gear, don't know how fast I was going, not racing. Tried to roll on the throttle thu the corner and got no response. Finally seemed to catch up. Writing that line makes me think it's fuel starved. Feels like "turbo lag" felt. Seems to have power to pull going thru the gears in a straight flat line.

Sorry, I'm a bit sleep deprived. I'm getting brain fade. Hope something in here helps. This also works as a journal for me to come back to and see where I've been and where I think I'm going next. I know I've gotten a bad attitude and I'm not touching the bike today. The wisdom of my years.
Thanks for all the help!
Cheers
Debbie

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by debhofv

Did just pull the plugs. At this mileage they look pretty new, difficult to read. I'd have to lean towards right on or lean if I had to make a call, def not rich. But I did note they are the "hot" plugs.
At full temp: when I blip from 1500 rpms it will respond, but won't always go back to idle. It will dip way down or even stall. When I hold to 3K then release the throttle it will often stumble below 800 rpms or stall. It's inconsistent.
I'd hoped that riding it would help it settle in to a well defined pattern I could hunt down. It didn't. Went into a beautiful, banked sweeping left in the mountains, 4th gear, don't know how fast I was going, not racing. Tried to roll on the throttle thu the corner and got no response. Finally seemed to catch up. Writing that line makes me think it's fuel starved. Feels like "turbo lag" felt. Seems to have power to pull going thru the gears in a straight flat line.

Sorry, I'm a bit sleep deprived. I'm getting brain fade. Hope something in here helps. This also works as a journal for me to come back to and see where I've been and where I think I'm going next. I know I've gotten a bad attitude and I'm not touching the bike today. The wisdom of my years.
Thanks for all the help!
Cheers
Debbie

your pilot system is running rich. adjust the pilot mix screws (aka 'idle air mix' screws) to decrease the amount of fuel going through the pilot system.

[debhofv]

turn them IN, correct. Like I said, I'm brain dead at this point. My eyes are about to bleed from all the reading.
Just read the complete cleaning guide again. I did not remove the main's "collars". If they are somehow not in there the main would have screwed in noticeably differently, correct? I did one side at a time and both sides were equal in all aspects, threads still showing. I sprayed in there with carb (now know as the "c" word) cleaner...worked over a white towel on the bench...don't own a lawnmower.
I did one jet at a time, they weren't dirty or clogged. Put it back and on to the next one. I was hard pressed to get anything out of the bowls- they were already clean. I removed the bowl gaskets and found some old varnish there that I got off before I replace with new gaskets. I don't think I turned the bodies upside down until the bowls were back on. I was pretty darn careful, but I'm not the first one in these either.

[alex.s]

turn them in. based on what you describe i would do 1 full turn and see how it is

[debhofv]

Thanks, good sir. Just noticed where you are. If you're up my way come on by. I'd like to shake your hand. I've got cookies too.

[Kevin2109]

Originally Posted by debhofv

Thanks, good sir. Just noticed where you are. If you're up my way come on by. I'd like to shake your hand. I've got cookies too.

Cookies

[alex.s]

[davenay67]

Originally Posted by debhofv

turn them IN, correct. Like I said, I'm brain dead at this point. My eyes are about to bleed from all the reading.
Just read the complete cleaning guide again. I did not remove the main's "collars". If they are somehow not in there the main would have screwed in noticeably differently, correct? I did one side at a time and both sides were equal in all aspects, threads still showing. I sprayed in there with carb (now know as the "c" word) cleaner...worked over a white towel on the bench...don't own a lawnmower.
I did one jet at a time, they weren't dirty or clogged. Put it back and on to the next one. I was hard pressed to get anything out of the bowls- they were already clean. I removed the bowl gaskets and found some old varnish there that I got off before I replace with new gaskets. I don't think I turned the bodies upside down until the bowls were back on. I was pretty darn careful, but I'm not the first one in these either.

Are these carbs balanced..?? The bike will run horribly if the carbs are not in sync with each other.

[debhofv]

Love the reaction to the mere mention of cookies hehehe! Thanks, need a laugh this am. You're fantastic.

I checked the sync with feeler gauges off the bike. I've read that's not as good as a dynamic sync. They appeared correct.

I've put fresh bandaids on this morning. It's cold and overcast out there...not a good day for adjusting "c word" but I'll do the idle screws anyway and see if that helps. Could run to the wretched dealer (in the car) and get the new plugs and put those in as well.

Most important lesson learned so far... Never buy a used bike that's not running and ride-able no matter what your (now ex) boyfriend says. Sure, his bikes run. Twat.

Changing my attitude from frustration to a puzzle that needs solving. Removing emotion of wanting to be out there riding to learning some good lessons and a lot about this bike. All good stuff. Forgive my "I want it now" attitude. I'll keep on keepin' on. With all your help I know this puzzle will be solved.
Cheers!
Debbie

[davenay67]

Originally Posted by debhofv

I checked the sync with feeler gauges off the bike. I've read that's not as good as a dynamic sync. They appeared correct.

It's a great start, and the best you can do until you can get the bike to run. Once the bike is running then you should absolutley do the dynamic balancing with the engine running.

Make sure the valves are in spec. Re-do the carb balancing anytime you make valve adjustments too.

The correct heat-range plugs *might* make a big difference.

You are giving your Kawi dealer a lot of grace. If I'd dropped $500+ plus in their till, I'd be screaming bloody murder if the bike still doesn't run well.

[debhofv]

Trying to avoid the valve adjustment at the moment...attitude adjustment first
The Kawi store that had the bike was by the ex's house in Santa Barbara. I'm in Ventura and my Kawi store has a worse reputation. They also carry 5 lines of bikes so I'm not surprised. That's a lot for anyone. They will never see this bike.

Their parts depts can't find their way out of a paper bag with a map and a flash light following a line of bread crumbs. You never know these things till after you've bought the bike, of course LOL

I won't buy much from them. If it can wait, it's coming from the internet. Most of the time I can wait.

[davenay67]

Understood. I hate the valves on these bikes, they get my use of the 'C' word.

Having said that, they need to be in spec for the bike to run properly. If they are too tight the bike will be unhappy.

Valve and carb adjustments need to be in harmony with one another for a really nice running bike.


Dave.

[debhofv]

Thank you, Dave. You are having a nice "calming" effect on me. Not like me to get so tweeked about such things.

Happens that my plumber's son rides for Team Green. I talked with him about the bike and my problems. He says the local "Kawi God" is in Simi Valley. That's a bit of a hike in the current condition. I called and got his input and estimate ($535 worst case) before I pulled the "c word". He says this bike wants "squeaky clean "c word" and valve adj on the loose side of spec. He didn't think it would need a valve adj at this mileage.

I've noticed a huge change in how it's running now that it's past the break-in period. Things are setting in and running more smoothly in the engine area. Feels happier for lack of a better term. Does feel looser, more agile, less twitchy. I expect this will continue to get better with more miles.

While I have your attention...I want to lube all the cables, Tri-Lube ok? Books don't say. I've also got graphite and pretty much every other product known to man- silicones, CRC etc. What are your feelings on octane? Books say wants 87, ex and his mates all said 91, so I've been running 91 Chevron. Is it worth my time to drain the tank and put in 87?

Thanks so much. I owe you.

[davenay67]

Originally Posted by debhofv

Thank you, Dave. You are having a nice "calming" effect on me. Not like me to get so tweeked about such things.

Happens that my plumber's son rides for Team Green. I talked with him about the bike and my problems. He says the local "Kawi God" is in Simi Valley. That's a bit of a hike in the current condition. I called and got his input and estimate ($535 worst case) before I pulled the "c word". He says this bike wants "squeaky clean "c word" and valve adj on the loose side of spec. He didn't think it would need a valve adj at this mileage.

I've noticed a huge change in how it's running now that it's past the break-in period. Things are setting in and running more smoothly in the engine area. Feels happier for lack of a better term. Does feel looser, more agile, less twitchy. I expect this will continue to get better with more miles.

While I have your attention...I want to lube all the cables, Tri-Lube ok? Books don't say. I've also got graphite and pretty much every other product known to man- silicones, CRC etc. What are your feelings on octane? Books say wants 87, ex and his mates all said 91, so I've been running 91 Chevron. Is it worth my time to drain the tank and put in 87?

Thanks so much. I owe you.

Your man is correct....valves *shouldn't* need adjusting this early, but you can't guaranatee that some clueless PO hasn't been messing with them in the past. My valves when I got my bike at 9,100 miles were horribly tight. Best to check to be safe and kn ow that everything is OK. It's very easy to check, it's the adjustment (if needed) that is a bit of a PITA.

Any lube works good for cables. I have one of those handy cable lubers and I just use the oil that came with it. Fairly easy to use and works really great. My clutch, choke and throttle cables were really grabby when I got the bike. Now they glide.

http://www.amazon.com/Tusk-Cable-Lub...ds=cable+luber


Book says 87, use 87. Using higher octane is just money down the drain unless you have a raised state of tune that needs the higher octane. Higher octanes actually ignite less easily. My Passat car (another 'c' word ) uses 91 because it's a turbo and 87 ocatnes retards the timing for less performance. My old Mustang GT was a lowly state of tune and ran best on 87.

[debhofv]

Will add that to my "I want" shopping list.
Just got back from the Local Kawi store. Tried to sell me a new 600- yeah, right. If I had that money someone else would be turning these wrenches.... Also says you can't "visually" inspect and clean pilots- just replace them...wonder why they've got such a bad reputation?
Got my plugs. Also found Star Tron fuel additive. Time to go play. Ipod should help the attitude. Always does.

My car, 2002 Celica GT-S with the 2ZZ-GE engine (lotus Elise) requires the 91 octane as well. We'll see how many bandaids I'm wearing at the end of the day before I decide if it's worth the trouble to drain and refill with 87 with Star Tron. If it's running well enough I may burn this tank out and fill with 87 next time...it's almost full right now.

Cover me, I'm going in
Thanks Dave. Special place in my heart for great men like yourself.
Cheers,
Debbie

[davenay67]

Originally Posted by debhofv

Will add that to my "I want" shopping list.
Just got back from the Local Kawi store. Tried to sell me a new 600- yeah, right. If I had that money someone else would be turning these wrenches....
Got my plugs. Also found Star Tron fuel additive. Time to go play. Ipod should help the attitude. Always does.

My car, 2002 Celica GT-S with the 2ZZ-GE engine (lotus Elise) requires the 91 octane as well. We'll see how many bandaids I'm wearing at the end of the day before I decide if it's worth the trouble to drain and refill with 87 with Star Tron. If it's running well enough I may burn this tank out and fill with 87 next time...it's almost full right now.

Cover me, I'm going in
Thanks Dave. Special place in my heart for great men like yourself.
Cheers,
Debbie

Don't drain the tank....use the 91 in there. It's totally OK to use, just more expensive than it needs to be at fill-up time. A lot of folks think that a higher octane rating is higher performance gasoline....not true. The reaility is that higher performance engines tend to need the higher octane to run on higher levels of tune.

More than heppy to help....its great seeing people do stuff for themselves and learning new things....not to mention save some $$$$ along the way. Trust me....I would pay for mechanics if I could afford it. If my car or bike breaks and I can't fix it myself, it stays broken. Food and clothes for the kids before a mechanic bill in our house.

You would have been semi-local to me back when I lived in Redondo. Now in Chicago. I sure miss the SoCal weather and the huge amount of twisties....there is a reason my '02 Daytona got sold.

[debhofv]

Wonder which is better for me- peanut butter and jelly sandwiches or hot dogs... LOL
You've got your priorities straight. I don't have anyone but myself to care for. I'm all I can handle and that's questionable at times LOL.
When you come to visit SoCal bring your gear, you can ride mine anytime!
Garage beckons.
Cheers!

[debhofv]

I think you guys fixed it. I'll go over the fine tuning again tomorrow. I've breathed too much exhaust and petrol fumes, got a head ache so I had the neighbor be my test pilot after my garage floor success!!! He says she's much better now.

I'm so _______fill in the blank. Did all the tests, lubed cables, replaced plugs, idle screws, checked routing, hoses, oiled up the air cleaner and installed it properly, etc. Air filter parts were never up on that lip in the bottom of the air box from day one. Started her up, started to warm up and died. WTF? Full choke, nothing, throttle, nothing. No start. Started to walk away saying "well, now I've done it, won't even run now"....guess which genius forgot to turn the petcock back on LOL. That would be me!

2 turns out on the idle air was too rich, moved in 1/4 turn at a time and the throttle now responds as it should. Can't remember what my final was, I think 1 1/2 so I'll double check that in the am...but it's a huge improvement.

The plugs I just took out are now showing it was running rich from when I mucked about with it the other day and made it worse. Now it's reacting as it should.

Cookies for everyone! You guys rock

What is it about working on cars and bikes makes me want to drink a beer when I'm done? Beer:30 at mine. Wind is up, 35mph gusts, not great riding so I'm staying in. I'm calling this a success. Tomorrow, all things willing, we'll go ride and see how she feels on the road. She's passed her garage and neighbor tests

Thank you all!!!!!

[debhofv]

I'm not certain what's the best...just got in from a great ride....on a bike that's running the best it's ever run since I've owned it....or knowing that WE did this!
Can't thank you all enough. Oh my goodness, one happy little girl over here.
Bar keep, a round of cookies for my mates on my tab please!

[Stingray1000]

Originally Posted by debhofv

I'm not certain what's the best...just got in from a great ride....on a bike that's running the best it's ever run since I've owned it....or knowing that WE did this!
Can't thank you all enough. Oh my goodness, one happy little girl over here.
Bar keep, a round of cookies for my mates on my tab please!

Cookies? The services of Ninjette.org require more then cookies..... You'll get our bill.. LOL Glad your bike is working now. Lord knows we all know how it feels for our baby's to be out of commission

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by debhofv

I'm not certain what's the best...just got in from a great ride....on a bike that's running the best it's ever run since I've owned it....or knowing that WE did this!
Can't thank you all enough. Oh my goodness, one happy little girl over here.
Bar keep, a round of cookies for my mates on my tab please!

[debhofv]

Originally Posted by Stingray1000

Cookies? The services of Ninjette.org require more then cookies..... You'll get our bill.. LOL Glad your bike is working now. Lord knows we all know how it feels for our baby's to be out of commission

I hear you...we'll start with cookies and go from there.... 1/4 mile at a time