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Old January 5th, 2022, 12:13 PM   #121
Bob KellyIII
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well, humm.... if what your saying is true then the bike should run perfectly !
so somewhere along the line it isn't as you say.... the question is WHERE !
I think it's time to step back and re evaluate the siduation from top to bottom !
..... it's running now... but evidently not the best.... spark plugs alone will do that....
Most ninja's seem to run great with some RPM's it's at the slower RPM's that they struggle with.... ( sounds like a Race bike to me !)
....
Question.... How old is the fuel you are using to run this thing with ?
could it be bad already ?
I remember getting 5 gallons of fuel for my bikes and stored it for about 3 months before using it and it gave me a hell of a time I added a bit of 2 cycle oil to it to help stabilize it but not sure that did much..... eventually I used up that gas but it did not want to burn even when I pored it on the ground and tried to light it ! ....
I think the recommendation is about 1 month old or less now....
it used to be 6 months but not any more !
....
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Old January 5th, 2022, 12:43 PM   #122
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Ducatiman warns us that starter fluid risks damaging the very expensive diaphragms.
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Old January 5th, 2022, 12:57 PM   #123
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....and in the case of 250's...the nylon/plastic slides as well.

Starter fluids= needless crap. Has no place in motorcycles....IMHO at least.
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Old January 5th, 2022, 01:18 PM   #124
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currently looking at the valves and I cannot get a .06 mm under the cylinder one intake valve and I looked at cylinder two intake and the nut is loose holding the valve in place!!
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Old January 5th, 2022, 01:23 PM   #125
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this is insane I can’t even get a feeler gauge under the lift intake at all no matter what the size is
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Old January 5th, 2022, 01:32 PM   #126
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Sounds like you are on road to recovery....with no need for start fluid.
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Old January 5th, 2022, 02:36 PM   #127
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this is insane I can’t even get a feeler gauge under the lift intake at all no matter what the size is
These engines tend to close the valve clearances with miles, and it's worse when the engine is cold. The clearances are small to begin with, so if the engine has gone some miles, it's possible that some of the valves won't close all the way until it warms up.

The symptoms include hard starting and the tendency to want to idle at either a very low RPM or a couple thousand, and nothing in between. Then you ride it for a few minutes and it seems OK. Of course it gets worse and worse, and if you don't correct the problem, you damage the valves and seats.
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Old January 5th, 2022, 03:07 PM   #128
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Sounds like you found a big part of the problems to me ! well done !
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Old January 5th, 2022, 03:37 PM   #129
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Sounds like you found a big part of the problems to me ! well done !
....
Bob....
I suggested that the valves could be causing trouble back at posts #7, #11, and #23.
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Old January 5th, 2022, 04:19 PM   #130
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And that was very Astute of you too Jim !
we'll get this guy up and running eventually ! ...after all it's a Ninja it's gott'a RUN !
LOL
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Old January 5th, 2022, 04:29 PM   #131
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I wasn't looking for praise, but thanks. I was pointing out that some of this might have been solved six months ago.
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Old January 5th, 2022, 05:18 PM   #132
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@Bob KellyIII the gas is about a week old 93 octane its not the gas I just used it in the lawn mower a couple of days ago.

I didnt ever think about starting fluid being bad for the diaphragms but that makes sense. I was only trying to see if I had a leak on the boots. I didnt use much but thats definitely good to know.
@Triple Jim checking the valves was going to be one of the first things I did but aggravation and time got in the way of me checking them... plus I just looked and the bike has 3900 miles valves were not high on the list of things to check since the miles are so low.

I think I am going to put the enricher back on and try it. I ordered a new diaphragm for it.

Does anyone know what size tubing it uses? the hoses were cracked when I started on this originally back in July thats why I took it off after I read that other people deleted it
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Old January 5th, 2022, 05:19 PM   #133
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The bike started up after the valve adjustment but was smoking really bad and since it was dark the cross pipe i could see was glowing red and that was from only 30 seconds or so of running... it runs at 7k rpm. the idle screw does nothing. now that I know the valves are right the only thing it can be is carbs
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Old January 5th, 2022, 06:21 PM   #134
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sounds like one of the vacuum hoses is off to me
....any chance the petcock vacuum line is left open ?
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Old January 5th, 2022, 06:24 PM   #135
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@Bob KellyIII thats what I was thinking too. I think the diaphragm for the enricher arrives tomorrow. I am putting it back on and I will be back to stock completely other than a pod filter. If I can get it to run right with it on might just leave it now that its been serviced.

Valves in check and carbs clean with the new hoses I am getting tomorrow it should run right I am hoping.
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Old January 5th, 2022, 07:05 PM   #136
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Hmmm, idle knob does nothing....

Sounds like your cables may be binding somewhere. Make sure cable-ends are in pulleys fully and not twisted. Verify stopper-plate on throttle shaft actually contacts tip of idle-adjuster screw when throttle is let up.
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Old January 5th, 2022, 08:30 PM   #137
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I dont think anything is bound but I will have to check later. I had to cover it with the tarpaulin because its suppose to rain until tomorrow evening starting soon. I am going to get some 1/4" hose tomorrow and put the enricher on. I need to also find my other 1/4" torque wrench because the one I was using to tighten the valves wasn't working right so I had to do it by hand and with something like valves I need them perfectly torqued
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Old January 5th, 2022, 08:31 PM   #138
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The throttle rotated and returned correctly before I tried to start it. I have 7 torque wrenches but I can only find the 4 that are 40-200 ft-lbs.... theres always something missing..........
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Old January 5th, 2022, 09:17 PM   #139
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if you have a 1 into 2 cable to the carbs check the slide where it splits into 2 some times they hang up and won't go all the way down... I have one like that on my old Triumph and i adjusted the synchronization and then checked it again a couple days later when I was getting ready to try and start it and they were way off.... and I knew I already did that... come to find out that union there had popped apart and one of the carbs cables was not in the hole but riding on top of it's slot... so I had to re do it all ! and there was no way to route the cable through the frame and then out to the handle bar... it has to dangle out in the breeze.... which I do not like... when I replace that throttle cable (soon) I will get an extra long one so I can route it through the frame and out the handle bar..... that way it won't get hung on some highway marker that I got way to close to HAHAHAHAHHA
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Old January 6th, 2022, 09:14 AM   #140
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These mixture screws aren't factory OEM.



Measure their length and taper at tip. This might be cause of overly rich idle mixtures. Might have to adjusted 1-turn inwards from stock position to compensate.

Glowing exhaust crossover might be sign of compromised ignition system

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Old January 6th, 2022, 09:18 AM   #141
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Glowing exhaust crossover might be sign of compromised ignition system
I'm not disagreeing, but when I've seen glowing pipes it has been due to an overly rich mixture that's still burning when the exhaust valve opens, causing unburned mixture to finish burning in the pipes.
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Old January 6th, 2022, 09:58 AM   #142
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yup, too much petrol from rich mixtures still burning when exhaust valves open.

Also seen it when sparks aren't strong or with too little advance. Mixtures haven't fully combusted by time exhaust valves open and continue to burn in pipes.

Might even be case of fried exhaust valves since clearance were so tight?

Do compression test.
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Old January 6th, 2022, 11:30 AM   #143
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I hate the stock mixture screws with a passion its horrible to adjust them equally on the bike. I run those same screws on every CV I have had. I will measure them in a few when it stops raining. I'm not sure where the stock ones are to compare them though.

I dont have a way to test compression I dont have a gauge and I dont know of anyone with one.

I want to check the valves one more time since I need to torque them correctly
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Old January 6th, 2022, 11:51 AM   #144
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Yes, be extremely careful when torquing lock-nuts on valve-adjusters. Too little and they work loose. Too tight and you may break off lateral guides from rocker-arms where they wrap around valve-stem. Then they'll fall off the valves at high-RPMs. I usually hold middle of valve-rockers with wrench when tightening lock-nuts. Helps keep side loads off rocker-arm guides.
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Old January 6th, 2022, 12:16 PM   #145
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1ft-lb isnt much and thats what the forum calls for when tightening. thats not much at all! I will remember to hold them when torquing. I didnt tighten them too much and if I did it couldnt have been much more than whats recommended. I still cant find the wrench though. I bought it 6 months ago to do my Triumph so it shouldnt be missing but it is
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Old January 6th, 2022, 01:10 PM   #146
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1ft-lb isnt much and thats what the forum calls for when tightening. thats not much at all!
The service manual specifies 14.5 lb-ft for the locknuts. I'd err on the low side.
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Old January 6th, 2022, 02:08 PM   #147
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my bad that is clearly not not what I meant lol I am definitely torquing to the right spec sorry I was just copying and pasting
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Old January 6th, 2022, 03:07 PM   #148
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I just retorqued everything just in case my hand torquing was wrong

So now,

Valves done
New coolant
New oil and filter - full synthetic with k&n filter
Cleaned carbs
K&N oval air filter
Stock exhaust
New hoses to enricher
Putting the enricher back on
Putting the 105 main jet back in and 38 slow jet still in
No shims under needles

What have I not done at this point before I give it a go?
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Old January 6th, 2022, 03:43 PM   #149
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Sounds like some maintenance poor bike really needed! Good job!

Still say compression-test might be in order.
Also verify vacuum on that right carb.
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Old January 6th, 2022, 03:55 PM   #150
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well, only you can answer that as Only you know what you've done ! BUT it sounds like your being smart and putting it back to stock and that is a very good thing, you can change it back later to all the little goodies you want to have on it AFTER you get it running perfect ! that is a real smart way to go
many times guys will change 3 or 4 things at the same time and then the bike doesn't run correctly and you'll have a heck of a time discerning what item it is that is making it not run right.... with it stock you have a base line to go from
as you know it works good from that setup.... your addition of stuff and changes can make a new base line in the future , no doubt about that... but for now, back to stock is the smartest move you could make ! if you get it working good at that point then you are golden !
...
I personally think putting the enricher back on is a very smart move sense that is a component that effects the low speed area that you are having trouble with
... once the low speed problem is sorted ( and don't be terriably heart broken if it still doesn't run right) then you can fine tune it with the air screws and get the idle correct.....
to Me with the Ninja, the Idle has been the most sketchy part in all of it's running but it is probably the most important ! it shows you where your at in tuning. I am a big believer in plug color checking ! especially on air cooled bikes !
if you do a plug color check after it idles for a few minutes that can tell you what is happening in the cylinder as it is idling....
if it's lean you may well have trouble increasing the throttle there may well be a sogg or delay in reving up... if it's too rich tat idle i t will smoke a little and run fat.... bubbery soto speak
...... but your plug color will tell you that ! ( use new plugs for an idle plug color check )b
other wise it will beddifficult to tell the color at idle
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Old January 6th, 2022, 04:08 PM   #151
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boy some times my interface on here goes berserk and does really strange things like typing 3 characters behind where it should be and deleting the character you are on deletes the next char over... really weird !
.... i guess fumble fingers are not liked by google ! LOL....
....
compression check is a good thing to have the ability to do... I need to get a new compression checker as my old one is practically useless now.
any one have a recommendation ? with my luck I would get one like this old Tony and wonder why the bike runs with only 60 PSI compression ! LOL
....
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Old January 6th, 2022, 04:50 PM   #152
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I need to get new plugs too. I think these were new back when I started this but I cant remember so I will just replace them.

I torqued everything to 12 ft-lbs like the forum recommended.
@Bob KellyIII I thought I had lost the enricher thats one of the reasons I was not putting it back on. now that I found it I will just put it back on. I agree about plug checking on air cooled bikes thoughts how I have tuned the carburetors on the newer carbed Triumphs.

I'm going to have to order a new air filter I realized earlier theres a decent size tear in it. So I guess I cant get everything going with a proper test until that comes in.........

One thing I did notice when I was retorquing earlier was the smell of gas in the oil. 108 mains must be WAY to rich for the bike with just a pod. Since like yall said the fuel burning in the crosspipe that kind of points to a rich mixture.

I might pick up a compression tester from harbor freight it looks like theyre only $30 there. or should I get the leak down tester? they would be good to have in my possesion
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Old January 6th, 2022, 05:01 PM   #153
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Might also be leaking petcock. Does it drip from fuel-hose if you disconnect from carbs?
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Old January 6th, 2022, 05:10 PM   #154
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still running an auxiliary gas tank bottle for the time being since everything keeps coming on and off
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Old January 6th, 2022, 05:44 PM   #155
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LOL Danno my petcock leaks in a good flow not just a slow drip....
if my floats stick I'm screwed ! I gott'a fix that !
.....
in my experience the small of gas from the oil is not uncommon and not a cause for alarm but it does denote "caution is needed" ! if that smell doesn't "burn off" with a few short runs, change the oil and find out why gas is getting into the oil !
I had one bike that when the carbs float stuck it filled up the air boc which was piped directly into the crankcase .... which I thought was uderly stupid beyond words.... but I realised why they did that and just moved up the "breather hose" to a location on the side of the airbox and that cured the problem
that bike always had the problem of the floats sticking ! I cleaned it a thousand times and a few weeks later it would stick again and empty the tank if I forgot to turn off the fuel.... I learned real quick to turn off the fuel believe me ! LOL.....
eventually I got an in line filter for it and that more or less cured the problem
...it was a old thrashed dirt bike not my daily rider so it was low priority
a stock DT1 250 Yamaha if I remember correctly i eventually got rid of the air box completely and put on a "Green weeny" if any of you are old enough to remember those air filters ! I loved those things fast and easy to clean
and your ready to go again ! man that was a long time ago.... alot of water has gone under the bridge sense that time !
.... I rode that bike from Vinton CA. to redding,ca 2 or 3 times one time in the dead of winter ! that was a cold ride..... just to get mom's car working for her ! she was totally messed up if her car didn't work ! so I rescued her several times !
....
the coldest ride I ever had was in Hamilton Montana riding a suzuki 100cc to work and back..... I damn near died of exposure ! i was so cold I had to have my wife's help to get off the bike when I got home.... and I said "Never again" -7 degrees is not good riding weather !
....the things we do for Money !
....
I hear that the Ninja will go into Hydraulic lock if the floats stick and the petcock leaks and there's not much you can do for that but tear into the machine and fix it ! when the cylinder fills with gasoline it won't compress
and you'll strip out the starter trying to start it..... so be aware of that !
....
later Bob.......
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Old January 6th, 2022, 11:02 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
I hear that the Ninja will go into Hydraulic lock if the floats stick and the petcock leaks and there's not much you can do for that but tear into the machine and fix it ! when the cylinder fills with gasoline it won't compress
and you'll strip out the starter trying to start it..... so be aware of that !
....
later Bob.......
Too late, been there done that! My 2008 had sat for 2-yrs before I bought it. Didn't know much about these bikes back then and tried starting it. It actually started for 5-seconds, then died for good! Managed to clean up carbs and got it running. But... didn't realise petcock leaked when bike was off... and float-valves leaked as well. So... it filled up crankcase overnight and when I tried to start in morning... >SCREEECH< >whrrrwhrrrr<

Yup, stripped starter gear!


Tried to order new one, but it would've taken over week to get here...
... And I had signed up for trackday w/NRS to get my racing-license that coming weekend!!! ARrrrgghh...!!!

Luckily, I remember reading somewhere, "Cut & weld as necessary"...
So I did it!!!


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Old January 7th, 2022, 03:37 AM   #157
Bob KellyIII
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lol that's a mighty fancy repair there Danno well done ! I hope I never have to do that !
I've been considering buying a small TIG welder for stuff like that but I don't think i can justify the expense as my stick welder can do it as well, just not as pretty.... and learning how to use that TIG welder may well take a long time !
LOL..... but it would be fun I think ! I've always wanted to weld up aluminum
every sense I was a Kid ! but never had a tig welder !
I did have a AC/DC stick welder and the aluminum Rod it takes which is the way I went on the Ranch and welded several motorcycle cases that had rock punctures in them and it worked fairly well... but I am not set up for aluminum welding any more...unfortunately. if I remember right Aluminum stick welding takes DC .
....
I was looking at the shop yesterday and I have been thinking I can get more room in there by re arangeing a few things... and I can squeeze in the small pellet stove to warm up the shop..... that would be a very nice and much needed addition ! but that is a ton of work.... and I will have a new bike here in a few days that needs miles on it.... I think I will put off that job for a long time yet ! LOL.....
....
Bob.....
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Old January 7th, 2022, 02:11 PM   #158
marshallsmith27
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Bob KellyIII I have never ridden that cold!! I bet that was fun haha. I have been rained on when it was in the 30s I had to have my ex help me inside because I couldnt walk lol.
@DannoXYZ thats some GREAT ingenuity! plus they look really good too. I have been wanting to buy a tig at some point so I can start building things and fixing them. I just havent bitten the bullet yet.

Since I deleted all of the emissions stuff I am not sure how to hook the hoses up and what to cap now that I am using the enricher. how do I connect everything now?
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Old January 7th, 2022, 02:29 PM   #159
Bob KellyIII
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I would have welded that thin gear from both sides myself grind down the high spots of the weld and call it good enough...
you actually found those gear teeth inside the engine cases too? they could well have destroyed the engine if it had been ran...
you were very smart to tear it down right then !!!
...
Bob....
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Old January 7th, 2022, 03:40 PM   #160
shspvr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob KellyIII View Post
I would have welded that thin gear from both sides myself grind down the high spots of the weld and call it good enough...
you actually found those gear teeth inside the engine cases too? they could well have destroyed the engine if it had been ran...
you were very smart to tear it down right then !!!
...
Bob....
I'm sure he did just that
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