June 18th, 2013, 01:18 PM | #1 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
Spooph's 250 build thread
So, Racer X convinced me to post this up here. This is a migration form newninja.com, since the project was started almost 3 years ago!
Re-build dyno, 40K heavy miles on the engine: Steps towards an empowered engine: It's kinda funny really... I started out wanting to install steel braided brake lines and just kept running with the "Well, while I'm here, I might as well do this...." Phase 1: Getting the 250 in shape: Optomizing stock parts: 1.) Return to stock setup, have it dyno tuned and get a base line figure of HP and A/F 2.) Install data logger from Innovate to match A/F from baseline for future mods. LM-2 Wideband O2 Digital Air/fuel Ratio Meter 3.) Install modified airbox, run dyno 4.) Install modified exhaust, run dyno 5.) Install flowed head, possibly deck head, Have it dyno tuned. 6.) Install 13:1 pistons, run dyno. 7.) Futz with ignition timing/cam timing, dyno.
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
June 18th, 2013, 01:56 PM | #2 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
|
Awesome.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
|
June 18th, 2013, 02:04 PM | #3 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
|
To address an earlier question. It took just the pressure of my finder nail to push the bearings into the rod.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
|
June 18th, 2013, 02:07 PM | #4 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
|
sounds cool, so where are you at in the process?
you said you started 3yrs ago, are you done? Did you do all those dyno runs? if so lets see the paper work, i think lots of people would like to see what those mods did on paper. cool stuff |
|
June 18th, 2013, 02:13 PM | #5 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
Thanks for the photo X!
This project is being resumed, so I'm still at step one. I will post some updates tonight concerning the bottom end, and it will be slow-going....
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
June 18th, 2013, 02:26 PM | #6 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: .
Location: .
Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much.
MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14
|
Sub'd.
My $0.02: Racer X and I have both found that this engine likes fuel. I've got my EFI setup supplying 12.5:1 AFR at the top end and WOT, and it really responds well. My shop typically tunes for 12.8-13.2, but FWIW richer feels better on the 'ol butt-dyno. |
|
June 18th, 2013, 04:10 PM | #7 |
Board Member
Name: ...
Location: WI
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.
|
Interested to see how yours comes along. What are you all doing?
|
|
November 19th, 2013, 09:23 AM | #8 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
Update: So, this little project isn't nearly as cool as some of the other engine/bike builds around here....
However, I believe mine is the only one with a nearly stock engine without a counter-balancer... Got it all put back together and went for a test ride the other night. Aside the fact that I lost my front sprocket nut (forgot to torque it down in all the excitement) on the high way, I'm happy to report the vibes aren't much more than with the counter-balancer. So, balanced crank, went from 1,700lbs @ 12K out of balance to 55lbs @ 12K. Scott Jensen at Moto Garage did the work, and tapped a bolt into the counter-balancer to keep it in place and keep oil pressure up. Some of the counter balalncer's weight was cut off to clear the rods and such, and I totally failed and forgot to take pictures.... Next step is to adjust jetting and then get some time on the dyno to see what a balanced crank w/o counter balancer gives, and then see what the subsequent changes (air box, exhaust, etc) does... Side note: I had no idea there was so much to building an engine. If I have learned anything through this process, it's that I'm not an engineer, and I never will be, and it's much less of a headache to pay a reputable shop to do this, than trying to do it on your own...
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
November 19th, 2013, 12:08 PM | #9 |
Board Member
Name: ...
Location: WI
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.
|
Cool. But seriously pics?
|
|
November 19th, 2013, 04:43 PM | #10 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 2
|
That's very interesting! How does the motor feel reving? Smoother/faster?
__________________________________________________
HalfFast Racing Team Serving Greater Houston Area Riders:WFO Riders MotoHouston HPC CMRA Ride Smart Fastline Lone Star Track Days |
|
November 20th, 2013, 02:59 AM | #11 |
Freedom for Germany
Location: This World
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.
|
@spooph it's interesting to read about your plan and why should an engine without a counter-balancer not run smooth? For sure it will rev better...
I remember in earlier times no engine had one and the only engine I know for which it is a must have is the 5 cylinder (engineer is the great Ferdinand Piëch) and the sound from this engine also is much better then the older american muscle-V8 (just not to say that I've been having many fun with one of those old Audi Quattro) Good luck for you |
|
November 20th, 2013, 10:08 AM | #12 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
@cuong-nutz - the engine revs a little bit faster, however I don't think it's going to show it's true benefits until some more modifications are made... Trying to get a dyno run scheduled to figure out if by itself it has provided any gain... Feel-wise, the motor vibrates a little bit more, but not much more than stock. Like, not nearly enough to make your hands go numb, or to make the bodywork rattle, etc.
@mgentz - yea, I know, I'm kicking myself for that now....
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
May 5th, 2014, 09:30 AM | #13 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
Finally got the jetting done and another Dyno in, 2hp gain by removing the balance shaft...
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
May 5th, 2014, 09:37 AM | #14 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Sonny
Location: Saint louis
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): 09 250r, 09 1125r, 95 Virago Posts: 78
|
What happened to your torque curve? Is that the intention of your design?
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 09:45 AM | #15 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
|
^ looks like A/F plot not torque
but regardless your A/F looks like it needs some work. what is your jetting? I'm surprised by how much your HP curve drops after 10K especially being rich. I feel like the higher revs run a good bit richer than range.
__________________________________________________
I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once. |
|
May 5th, 2014, 09:54 AM | #16 |
Board Member
Name: ...
Location: WI
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.
|
2 HP just by getting rid of the balance shaft or did you change your jetting? By and large, slightly lean = more HP. Due to this I would wonder about the true effects of the balance shaft on HP.
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 09:59 AM | #17 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Sonny
Location: Saint louis
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): 09 250r, 09 1125r, 95 Virago Posts: 78
|
I always wondered how much a balance shaft affected performance. I wonder how the motor feels without out it or if there are any adverse affects.
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 10:25 AM | #18 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
@subxero - yes, jetting definitely needs some work! Stock jets, idle and main, 2 shims under the needles to get rid of a pesky low spot around 7K RPM's.
@mgentz - I thought all 250 power curves drop off around 10K RPM with stock exhaust system, as it restricts air flow and starts working against itself? Next step would be to install either the modified airbox or exhaust, jet appropriately, and get another dyno. What I'm really trying to do is to see which single factor has the biggest impact on the engine, and how much of a multiplier the counter balancer removal... Unfortunately I don't have oodles of time/money to dump into a purely scientific approach (changing 1 factor at a time), but I've never seen a systematic look at each factor.... usually it's intake + exhaust, jet appropriately and more power, but does anybody know how much each part is worth? any ideas on how to do this better would be appreciated!
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
May 5th, 2014, 10:26 AM | #19 | |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
|
Quote:
A/F higher being lean, lower being rich?
__________________________________________________
I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once. |
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 10:27 AM | #20 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Sonny
Location: Saint louis
Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): 09 250r, 09 1125r, 95 Virago Posts: 78
|
This could turn out to be an awesome thread.
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 10:27 AM | #21 | |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
|
Quote:
__________________________________________________
I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once. |
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 10:38 AM | #22 |
Rev Limiter
Name: Jay
Location: WI
Join Date: Jul 2013 Motorcycle(s): '06 SV650n, '00 Derbi GPR, '64 CA77 Dream 305, '70 CL450 Scrambler, numerous dirt bikes Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
|
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 10:40 AM | #23 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
@jkv45 - Yes, I believe so, somebody correct me if I'm wrong!
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
May 5th, 2014, 10:42 AM | #24 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
|
I really like what you are trying to do but you probably already know that it is going to be tough to really get individual affects narrowed down because you will have cumulative affects with some things.
I might have done this Tested stock I would have probably jetted the bike first - test 2 Remove snorkel, rejet - test 3 Full exhaust, snorkel in rejet - test 4 Full exhaust, snorkel out, rejet- test 5 Full exhaust, pods, rejet, - test 6 Return to stock everything, balanced shaft, - test 7 Balanced shaft, full exhaust, snorkel out, rejet - test 8 ......................................, pods, rejet - Test 9 ect... ^ the idea being to try and get readings for all the more easily swapped on and off parts first before doing things that can not be easily un done... if at all. Since you balanced the shaft already you have kind of created a new baseline in which your other readings will have to be measured from unless you put an unbalanced shaft back in, ya dig? Again impossible to get around in some instances but it is what it is. Regardless it will be cool to see everything and a boat load of work
__________________________________________________
I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once. |
|
May 5th, 2014, 11:02 AM | #25 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
@subxero - yup yup, I totally agree, but here's my thinking.. I don't have that kind of cash - that's $486 in just dyno pulls (I haven't been able to find anybody willing to do it for less than $54)... This is also a great discussion to point out what we don't know.
I thought with the variances in dyno results I would be getting trends anyway, not hard numbers, since it takes me forever to do anything. If I could, for instance, do this all within a week in a temperature/pressure controlled dyno it would most certainly be worth it! I can't remember all the threads and discussion, but from before my internetz hiatus these were the trends (2011): pods + full exhaust would usually get ~33rwhp. high comp pistons, worked head ~37rwhp. ignition timing 38rwhp+ @RacerX I believe was the first to push a new-gen 250 beyond the limits of the stock clutch around ~40bhp (~38rwhp). So, I was hoping to interpolate from those numbers, so I wouldn't have to redo all of that work. So, anyway, you and I are tracking. I guess I just wanted to put these number down so that other people could follow along... I guess what I really want to know, and through using other's results (I know, not terribly consistent and scientific) I'm hoping to figure if the counterbalancer is a multiplier, or if it's worth a finite amount of power on it's own. So, as long as the question is a "yes" or "no" and not that of a value amount, methinks this process will be accurate enough. It won't produce hard numbers, but it will give us an idea, so somebody else can do something better with their resources...
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
May 5th, 2014, 11:05 AM | #26 |
Board Member
Name: ...
Location: WI
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.
|
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 11:13 AM | #27 | |
Board Member
Name: ...
Location: WI
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
As for these numbers: pods + full exhaust would usually get ~33rwhp. high comp pistons, worked head ~37rwhp. ignition timing 38rwhp+ They may be in the ballpark, however if I would guess they should be more like 32, 35, 36. Also, you must remember that many other systems will need to be updated along the way. NOT TUTING MY OWN HORN HERE, but I most likely have one of the most modified NA bikes and I am working to get 40 HP out of just the motor. I will post my dyno results here and in my thread once completed. |
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 11:44 AM | #28 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Spooph
Location: Golden, CO
Join Date: Jul 2010 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250R Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Oct '15
|
@mgentz - thanks for the #'s! Just post your dyno in your thread, we'll keep things organized... BTW, I'm going through you Ultimate build thread with a fine toothed comb, trying to soak up as much as I can...
I was surprised by the 2 HP as well... I thought it was going to be a decimal increase and it would pay dividends later... We'll see how the other mods get on..
__________________________________________________
My therapist has 2 wheels and a seat. If you are ever in doubt to my tone, please refer to my avatar. |
|
May 5th, 2014, 12:05 PM | #29 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
|
same dyno right? Just 1 pull for each time there?
__________________________________________________
I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once. |
|
May 5th, 2014, 12:30 PM | #30 | |
Board Member
Name: ...
Location: WI
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
|
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 12:33 PM | #31 |
Board Member
Name: ...
Location: WI
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.
|
you should get a package deal from the dyno place. Agree to or pay for 10+ pulls for a time period, then ask for a discount.
^ this works as I have done it before |
|
May 5th, 2014, 12:45 PM | #32 | |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
|
Quote:
Was thinking along same lines, you should be able to do some quick changes between pulls. All plastic and non essentials off the bike and you should be able to change jetting, remove snorkel, re install snorkel and even, put on a full exhaust system between pulls. Probably wouldn't be able to remove airbox and install pods between pulls though
__________________________________________________
I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once. |
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 12:51 PM | #33 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
|
Unfortunately most shops cant let you work on the bike in the shop. The insurance will not cover a giant fire from spilled gasoline and a spark from the starter lead touching a fuel bowl. Just for instance.
And you probably can't push it outside and do it in the parking lot either.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
|
May 5th, 2014, 12:56 PM | #34 | |
Board Member
Name: ...
Location: WI
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
|
|
|
May 5th, 2014, 01:47 PM | #35 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
|
I have been on fire. But not from that one. But I am aware of the danger.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. |
May 5th, 2014, 04:44 PM | #36 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
Location: Houston, TX
Join Date: Apr 2011 Motorcycle(s): '10 250r, '09 265r Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 2
|
Would you want the counter balancer oiling holes to face perpendicular to the oiling galleys on the crankcase to keep oil pressure up?
So to make this work you remove the gear off the counter balancer and clearance the counter weights on the balancer.
__________________________________________________
HalfFast Racing Team Serving Greater Houston Area Riders:WFO Riders MotoHouston HPC CMRA Ride Smart Fastline Lone Star Track Days |
|
May 5th, 2014, 04:54 PM | #37 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
|
Ya that seems to be what he did. A brilliant way of doing it. I wish I was that smart.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
|
May 6th, 2014, 04:08 AM | #38 | |
Board Member
Name: ...
Location: WI
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
|
|
|
May 6th, 2014, 06:21 AM | #39 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: Eric
Location: Iowa City
Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot.
Blog Entries: 54
MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16
|
The normal way to remove a balance shaft is to make pieces that replace the shaft but allow oil flow. Using the original shaft and just removing the weight is a better solution in my opinion.
__________________________________________________
Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja |
|
May 6th, 2014, 06:52 AM | #40 | |
Board Member
Name: ...
Location: WI
Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.
|
Quote:
The only thing to note is that the shaft will turn no matter how you initially orientate it. However, using the original shaft with the oiling holes and proper clearances would be best. |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Ninja 250 racer build thread | bitaria | Ninjettes At Speed | 81 | December 8th, 2015 08:19 AM |
New Pickup - Eventual Build Thread | ninjakuma | The Ex-Ninjetters Lair | 9 | August 22nd, 2014 11:36 AM |
99 Ex 250 project Cafe/streetfighter, The build thread. | cerberusrex25 | 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk | 260 | June 14th, 2014 04:27 PM |
Christmas Build thread | ds650rida | 1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Tech Talk | 84 | June 10th, 2014 02:46 PM |
Epic build thread | Alex | Off-Topic | 8 | April 8th, 2013 04:57 PM |
|
|