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Old August 30th, 2017, 09:25 AM   #1
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Nice save, but maybe cool it on the throttle

Link to original page on YouTube.

I bet he needed a short break after that.

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Old August 30th, 2017, 09:32 AM   #2
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My ears hurt just listening to it!

Good example of why to keep it on the track.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 09:38 AM   #3
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Wowzers...

This is where some solid track braking skills can save your bacon on the street. The vid shows he was going 85mph when the truck came into sight with about 200ft of pavement to work with. Anyone with decent track skills can come to a complete stop in that distance from that speed WITH room to spare.

However it is the public road, he was out riding his vision, sounds like he locked the rear brake a bit too, but not sure. What he did well was see an opening/escape route and he used it.

Lucky rider...
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Old August 30th, 2017, 09:50 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
This is where some solid track braking skills can save your bacon on the street. The vid shows he was going 85mph when the truck came into sight with about 200ft of pavement to work with. Anyone with decent track skills can come to a complete stop in that distance from that speed WITH room to spare.
I was hoping for a braking related comment from you

What about a stock Ninja 250R going that speed; do you think someone with developed braking skills could stop before reaching that lorry? I'm guessing that Honda is capable of being stopped quicker due to better front brakes and a fatter front tyre.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 09:53 AM   #5
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It would have been exciting, but it sure looks like there would have been time to haul it down instead of going off-road to avoid it.

I'm surprised he made it.

Last futzed with by jkv45; August 30th, 2017 at 12:30 PM. Reason: typo
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Old August 30th, 2017, 10:03 AM   #6
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What about a stock Ninja 250R going that speed; do you think someone with developed braking skills could stop before reaching that lorry? I'm guessing that Honda is capable of being stopped quicker due to better front brakes and a fatter front tyre.
Yes mam, I believe even the stock brake system on a 250 is more than capable of such braking. My first track experience was on a stock 250, the only mods were upgraded tires and fender eliminator lol. No need for a fatter front tyre, just a well sorted bike with 100% functional brakes and focused rider skills. There is a good chance that a stock setup on 250 with a 220+lb rider will bottom out the forks though. This is what I mean by "well sorted", the front springs need to be set to riders weight to achieve a much, much, much higher level of braking performance.

I googled some of the stopping distances for bikes from various speeds. I will admit, at this point... I don't put must stock in those graphs. I know for FACT... you can go from 145mph to 15mph in 300ft. It's that scary type of braking, but can be done. Just takes practice.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 10:12 AM   #7
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This is exactly what track days are for. So you can experience riding at that kind of pace without the untidy and inconvenient prospect of decapitation.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 10:15 AM   #8
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Good example of why to keep it on the track.
Absolutely. That kind of riding is a lot like Russian Roulette.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 10:39 AM   #9
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@csmith12 - Thanks for your response.

I like to practise coming to a quick stop on many of my rides. I do it to train myself and to make sure the brakes are working well, should I actually need them. I check around me to make sure there's no one else on the road, bring up my speed and then stop as fast as I can. When I do this I can usually hear my front tyre chirping. I'm guessing it does this as it slightly loses and regains traction on the uneven road surface. My questions:

1. Is it a good or a bad sign that my front tyre chirps? IE Am I braking like a boss to bring it to that point or am I braking too hard and it's not optimal to have these tiny loses of traction as I come to a stop?

2. I already know to use my legs on the tank to stop my body weight going onto the bars. Is there any other small tip you can offer me to handle my weight better while braking. For instance: should I aim to have my weight central between the two wheels or should I be aiming to have it slightly further forward or back on the bike?
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Old August 30th, 2017, 10:59 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by akima View Post
@csmith12 - Thanks for your response.

I like to practise coming to a quick stop on many of my rides. I do it to train myself and to make sure the brakes are working well, should I actually need them. I check around me to make sure there's no one else on the road, bring up my speed and then stop as fast as I can. When I do this I can usually hear my front tyre chirping. I'm guessing it does this as it slightly loses and regains traction on the uneven road surface. My questions:

1. Is it a good or a bad sign that my front tyre chirps? IE Am I braking like a boss to bring it to that point or am I braking too hard and it's not optimal to have these tiny loses of traction as I come to a stop?

2. I already know to use my legs on the tank to stop my body weight going onto the bars. Is there any other small tip you can offer me to handle my weight better while braking. For instance: should I aim to have my weight central between the two wheels or should I be aiming to have it slightly further forward or back on the bike?
Question 1. The chirps of the tyre are a signal that you're on the edge of locking the wheel, it will pay dividends to react to that sound vs reacting to the final lock up. Is it a good or bad sign? In this case where the rider is adjusting to quickly changing traffic, it is a good sign as it lets you know that you are braking to max available traction. However, note that poor skills can reduce available traction and vice versa for skilled riders. Your VERY end goal is to brake hard enough where there are no chirps but still get MAX performance. It's super hard to do... I will admit. It's a process of practice and knowing your bike at an intimate level (you have heard me say that before ).

Question 2. It is always best to have you body weight to support your throttle roll as the corner demands. For example; you need to roll throughout the corner, but then see a lorry... Your body weight is already 60/40 on the rear (seated further back), when you need to get stupid hard on the brakes, your body position is already in the most helpful position to balance out the weight transfer to "ridiculous" hard on the front. This seating/body position will also support easier reduction of lean angle to max brake even harder as needed, just as this rider did in the vid. Which is another thing he did well.

Also, you CAN keep both knees on the tank during braking despite your hang off seating position. When the turn point comes, then all you have to do is relax your knee out leg. The benefit to this is, if you need to late brake hard... you still have both knees on the tank for max control.

The only other option is to do the Rossi leg dangle for added theatrics... hahahahhahahaha If you are going down, go down in style. EDIT: I don't really mean that in a silly way, I am saying always work hard to find a positive in a negative. All too often we focus on the negative and fail to learn. :\
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Old August 30th, 2017, 11:24 AM   #11
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Small item you probably already know, but worth mentioning while talking about emergency braking:

Squeeze, then SQUEEZE.

In other words, don't grab all of the brake at once. Load the front to squish out the contact patch and make it bigger, then really get into it. That gives you maximum traction.

If you grab the brake too aggressively, you can break traction and lose the front.

This can happen very fast, but should be deliberate.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 11:25 AM   #12
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Thanks Chris. That's a really awesome response. It has raised one more question for me though. I've heard some riders here mention that the 250R isn't that well balanced; that it has too much weight on the rear wheel in the standard riding position (I think maybe Alex.S said this). Couple that with the fact that throttle roll on during a corner can put a lot less force on the rear wheel and suspension that, say, a 600 SS could, makes me wonder: does the 60/40 weight thing apply on a 250R?

I haven't ridden that many bikes, so I'm not a great judge of this, but if I sit back on the seat the front end on my 250R does feel light to me.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 11:29 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Small item you probably already know, but worth mentioning while talking about emergency braking:

Squeeze, then SQUEEZE.

In other words, don't grab all of the brake at once. Load the front to squish out the contact patch and make it bigger, then really get into it. That gives you maximum traction.

If you grab the brake too aggressively, you can break traction and lose the front.

This can happen very fast, but should be deliberate.
Yep. That's something I know, but I appreciate it all the same. It can't be said enough IMO. I've seen so many videos of riders going down near instantly due to suddenly snapping on the front brake. One of the reasons I regular practise quick stops is to train my muscle memory to brake in the fashion you described.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 11:35 AM   #14
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Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old August 30th, 2017, 11:53 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akima View Post
makes me wonder: does the 60/40 weight thing apply on a 250R?
Of course it does... but lets help you with your question.

Which tire is bigger?
Which tire can handle more of the traction load?
What tool(s) (bike inputs) have the most dramatic effect on weight distro? One of those inputs puts the weight on the front, the other can move it front/aft at will.

Sorry, I spelled tyre wrong.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 12:18 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by csmith12 View Post
Of course it does... but lets help you with your question.

Which tire is bigger? rear!
Which tire can handle more of the traction load? rear!
What tool(s) (bike inputs) have the most dramatic effect on weight distro? front brake and to a much lesser extent on the 2fiddy: throttle!One of those inputs puts the weight on the front, the other can move it front/aft at will.

Sorry, I spelled tyre wrong. forgiven. I also forgive you in advance for dropping the "u" in colour.
(responded inside your quote)

My thought is:
* the ninja 250R is already biased towards weight on the rear (I think)
* the throttle is far less able to transfer weight the rear
* ...
* uh
* oh yeah
* those two things kinda cancel each other out



OK, I'm wondering now whether the clever folks at Kawasaki created the weight imbalance on purpose.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 01:40 PM   #17
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My 250 seems pretty well front-rear balanced to me. If I brake as hard as possible with my BT45 tires, I can just get the rear wheel off the ground a little, once I have the front end compressed good.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 02:30 PM   #18
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I'd agree that rider was outriding his visual distance and braking was probably his best option. I know I've had a few times when I've been glad I'm reasonably good at braking. Going up on that bridge edge looked frightening.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 02:36 PM   #19
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Going up on that bridge edge looked frightening.
Driving my Vega on the DC Beltway in the left lane many years ago, the traffic in front of me came to a sudden stop. Having left enough following distance, I stopped in time to avoid the car in front of me, but it was a hard stop. I looked in the mirror to see how the guy behind me was doing, and watched him swerve to the left shoulder to miss me. He did what the motorcycle rider did, but the car was not so narrow, so the ramp-like concrete railing support lifted the left side of his car, and it was deposited in the lane behind me on its roof, sliding down the road and slowly rotating. The guy was wearing his seat belt, and I could see his face through the windshield. It had a very excited look on it. No cars crashed and he slid safely to a stop, still hanging upside down.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 02:40 PM   #20
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The guy was wearing his seat belt, and I could see his face through the windshield. It had a very excited look on it. No cars crashed and he slid safely to a stop, still hanging upside down.
They way you wrote that...

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Old August 30th, 2017, 02:53 PM   #21
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It was surreal seeing that happen behind me, that's for sure.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 02:57 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akima View Post
(responded inside your quote)

My thought is:
* the ninja 250R is already biased towards weight on the rear (I think)
* the throttle is far less able to transfer weight the rear
* ...
* uh
* oh yeah
* those two things kinda cancel each other out



OK, I'm wondering now whether the clever folks at Kawasaki created the weight imbalance on purpose.
Perhaps I am reading too much into it but, if you ride more brands of bikes in a close to semi stock config, you will find;

Honda - pretty good/damn good at everything, master of none but with the right rider, a deadly foe
Yami - Awesome as long as the front stays stable, 100% ride in anger
Suzuki - Awesome as long as the rear stays stable, lower the front, raise the rear (in general), get back to the throttle early and live happy!
Triumph - Similar to honda, but when sh*t hits the fan, go yami style and carry corner speed
Bimmer - Just let electronics figger it out lol, ham fist it... the bike's got dis
Aprilia - Sick arse bikes!!!!! Throttle control or electronics will be your friend - sum b*tches eat tires for breakfast
KTM/Ducati - Ride it like a tractor, hahahahahhahahahaha, ham fist it on exit or go home... rear slides and rear spin ups are no biggy, stay on the gas
Kawi - Balanced front to rear but you have to "ride it in anger and figger it out from there, because it can go either way. Have a racer check your throttle, it's most likely effed up
Harley - your kidding right?

To address your concern, the Kawi's should be pretty balanced front and rear or you got hardware/bike setup to address. The exception to this rule are riders that give 0 fuks... they will ride anything fast. Kids somewhat fit into this category because they don't know.

PS; please don't take some of those ham fist comments seriously, they are meant to be a joke... somewhat. At higher levels of riding skill, it's kinda spot on.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 03:45 PM   #23
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That had to be a kid. Anyone with a few years of riding like an idiot under their belt would have hit the rear brake, slide the bike under the truck, used their knee to pop back up, shown proper finger to the driver, and sped away like the mad demon he was.

Skills people, seriously, you have to develop proper skills!
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Old August 30th, 2017, 05:23 PM   #24
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Link to original page on YouTube.

I bet he needed a short break after that.

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Old August 30th, 2017, 07:46 PM   #25
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Ugh, out riding his skill is bad enough but on public roads? Imagine how horrible the person he almost hit would've felt if he hadn't squeezed by. Not their fault if he had but...
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Old August 30th, 2017, 08:28 PM   #26
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On the topic of braking:

I'm not so sure I'd recommend this if you're not willing to take a low-speed spill, but I've taken my bike to a large parking lot and intentionally tried to lock up the tires (something I used to do with unfamiliar cars to get a feel for them. I know how to get that from just driving them now).

It's not only scary, but it's downright IMPRESSIVE how quickly things can go wrong with a locked up front. A locked rear is usually manageable enough (still, I don't like when it happens).

You can squeeze the absolute CRAP out of your front brake, as long as the force is applied gradually. Finding how quickly you can still do it while still being gradual is the tricky part. I'm not a track dude yet, but plenty of braking practice has served me well.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 09:13 PM   #27
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we assume he had plenty of time, all my camera's make things look far away and about half the speed your actually traveling, maybe this is the case also.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 09:53 PM   #28
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Yeah, I think it was closer to 120ft to the truck when he saw it.
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Old August 30th, 2017, 10:44 PM   #29
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Quote:
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On the topic of braking:
You can squeeze the absolute CRAP out of your front brake, as long as the force is applied gradually.
Yes, when I'm practicing hard stops on the 250, at the end I have my legs out and I'm ready to catch the bike if the front wheel locks, but if things go well, the rear wheel just lifts a little.
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Old August 31st, 2017, 04:07 AM   #30
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Ugh, out riding his skill is bad enough but on public roads? Imagine how horrible the person he almost hit would've felt if he hadn't squeezed by. Not their fault if he had but...
Personally I wouldn't feel bad if I was the truck driver. The truck driver didn't do anything wrong. I'd probably feel annoyed that the guy damaged the side of my truck and wasted my morning. I'd bite my tongue though and just try to comfort the rider and look after him while we wait for an ambulance to arrive.
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Old August 31st, 2017, 03:17 PM   #31
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looks like he had plenty of time to stop but just chose not to
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Old August 31st, 2017, 04:34 PM   #32
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If I was lorry driver and he crashed into me, I'd hop out and kick him while he's down!!!
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