The Ninja 300 will fail

[Old Guy on a '08]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

I understand this is an online forum full of people who spend an disproportionate amount of time online, but you guys need to take a step back into the real world about how most people buy a motorcycle. Not many people will put the time in to research which brand offers the best package or what a slipper clutch is or the difference between a 250 or a 300. The fact is most people in the real world have never heard of Kawasaki, and a lot of people just default to buying Honda because many people just come from Accords and Civics and have brand loyalty baked in.

Also many people buy based purely on price especially for a starter bike. The CBR250 is already 500 cheaper then the 2012 250, and now it's 700 cheaper. There is a difference between improving a bike in every shape and being competitive in the marketplace. The 2013 Ninja 300 is a better package then the CBR, but it remains to be seen whether increasing the price and adding new features are what most people are looking for in the small displacement motorcycle market, and whether it's enough to pull people away from Honda in terms of brand loyalty.

NOT!!!
I've seen like 2 250CBR's on the streets of Charlotte. I'm out a lot. The two dealers near me don't seem to have a lot in stock and talking to the floor guys their not selling that many. The Concord location had a USED 250CBR on the floor....

I also note that the 250R is still listed on the product line up...

It will be interesting to see how all this plays out... but one thing is definately certain...

Kawasaki will still be selling a bunch of small bikes...

[Old Guy on a '08]

Originally Posted by Whiskey

That's utter bollox, Kawasaki is one of the big 4 which everyone with even a passing interest in bikes know.
They've got a real advantage by making all their sports bikes available in kawasaki lime green, it's immediately recognisable.

Many parts of the world have restrictions for new riders (pretty much everywhere except the USA). Europe is standardising at no more than 35kW (about 46bhp) Honda's 250 is about half that, most beginners go for the highest powered machine legally allowed, I was predicting a 45bhp, 400 from one of the big 4 to be announced.

Kawasaki is also one of the biggest companies in the world, they've made everything from sections of the International Space Station, to nuclear power plants, attack helicopters to bullet trains & jet engines, submarines & the biggest selling bike worldwide.

If I was starting over & had the choice between the ninja 250 (08) & the CBR 250 it would be no contest, ninja 250, in a choice between the ninja 250 & 300 I'd go for the 300.

The CBR 250 has it's niche, but it's a city commuter only, it does it very well, but so does a dullville.

And because when you walk into the Honda Dealer you immediately learn about Kawasaki... and OH BABY, that "Black" Ninja just Looks Fast (right Jiggles?)

[Old Guy on a '08]

Originally Posted by Major_Paine

uhhh, i ride a green cbr. and the random people (RIDERS AND NON RIDERS) who approach me ask if i ride a ninja. this happens all the time, only other cbr owners will get my bike right.

Or NINJA rider

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Old Guy on a '08

And because when you walk into the Honda Dealer you immediately learn about Kawasaki... and OH BABY, that "Black" Ninja just Looks Fast (right Jiggles?)

Idk of any dealer that sells just hondas

and yes

[Old Guy on a '08]

Originally Posted by psych0hans

Dude, forget 12 bucks, A Ninja 250 in India costs twice as much as the CBR 250r... It still sells...

CBR 250r - 2760$
Ninja 250r - 5520$

People still buy Ninjas... No doubt the CBR sells way better, but you can't beat the price.

Someone is getting rich!
Glad I don't live in India
Hey, maybe I ought to black market my bike in India

[Old Guy on a '08]

Originally Posted by arnoldc6

Have you ever seen a CBR 250? That thing is ugly. just ****ing ugly. And weirdly skinny too.
Although i do agree with the pricing part..Plus dealer fees, tax and everything a ninja 300 costs well over 8grand in my state.
I aint paying anything beyond 5.5k...with that price 30% more and you can get a zx6r already.

And I'm so glad I don't live in the Aloha State... Eight big ones???? WOOW

[Old Guy on a '08]

Originally Posted by Timr

i think the 300 is hot as hell but the biggest problem i see with it (which is also the reason i won't be buying one) is it is no longer eligible for 250 race classes.
i know that this might be minority sales but it is still a big number.
here in aus we have a 250 production class with 3 eligible bikes, the ninja 250, the meggeli 250 and the cbr 250. since this class was introuduced to run with the australian super bikes the ninja sales took off (can't remember the figure) because not only did people want them to race but as the saying goes "win on sunday, sell on monday"
so with the ninja no longer able to compeate i can see sales falling off.
it won't fail but i think it might end up being a bit of a miss calculation on their part.

And that might be why they kept the 250 in the lineup????

[Old Guy on a '08]

Originally Posted by miss_syn

Aside from the power increase, I think the biggest offering the 300 has is the digital gauges, FI, and larger-CC styling. Everything the people wanted on the 500 in a bigger package.

Perhaps Kawasaki looked at the cost of putting these on the 250, saw it would make it X number of dollars more than the CBR250 and said "let's try something else."

you might have hit the nail on the head
and we'll keep the 250r for the price concious and the racers....

[beninja]

Originally Posted by Bassman

Best thing Honda could right now is invest in kawasaki, lol.

lol. I would do it!

[Timr]

Originally Posted by Old Guy on a '08

And that might be why they kept the 250 in the lineup????

not here

[Drdoonta]

I gotta say i knew of ninjas well before i ever heard of honda bikes well besides dirt bikes and when i went to look for a bike i looke at the honda and it was ugly as haha i wanted the aprillia or ninja and the ninja for the proce got me hooked

[miss_syn]

Originally Posted by Old Guy on a '08

you might have hit the nail on the head
and we'll keep the 250r for the price concious and the racers....

Or we won't. The 2013 lineup isn't showing a 250....

[subxero]

Originally Posted by ninja yas

DUDE! have you seen how sexy it is!! first time buyers always like looks,
300 > honda cbr250r

This,

The main determining factor for me to consider ninja over cbr was looks, next was revs, i'm a high rev junkie and since the ninja can be made to limit at just over 14k it made me feel happy inside.

But seriously money was a factor in my decision and i could not bring myself to ride that ugly CBR250... i'm better than that.

I see what you are getting at with price but it really isn't that big of a jump and you get a sweet as bike for the price tag. I heard honda is going to charge and extra $500 just for their Repsol paint job for the 2013's but maybe the paint makes it go faster

[CodE-E]

I rode a Ninja 250R for two years and loved it. I sold it last year because I didn't have the free time to really go riding on the weekends, but that will change next spring, so I'm planning to get back into motorcycling then. Of course I was already thinking about which motorcycle I should get. Although I liked the 250R, I'd prefer a bit more power just, so I considered the ER-6n (awesome looking naked bike, I've gotta say!). I read about the Ninja 300 a few days ago and I got really excited. It looks awesome, has a much-needed dashboard upgrade, more power, and the added safety features (ABS and slipper clutch) are nice.

I wish it were a bit lighter, though. If Kawasaki were to aggressively do some weight-loss engineering, they could probably easily get under 150 kg. The KTM Duke 690 weighs 149.5 kg (although without fuel), for comparison. Anyone know why the 250R and the new 300 aren't particularly light-weight? Would it cost so much more to use lighter materials?

Anyway, I think the new Ninja 300 will do well. The new features make it the supreme small-capacity motorcycle on the market, but Kawasaki will need to be sensitive with the pricing.

[Surferboy120]

Originally Posted by CodE-E

I rode a Ninja 250R for two years and loved it. I sold it last year because I didn't have the free time to really go riding on the weekends, but that will change next spring, so I'm planning to get back into motorcycling then. Of course I was already thinking about which motorcycle I should get. Although I liked the 250R, I'd prefer a bit more power just, so I considered the ER-6n (awesome looking naked bike, I've gotta say!). I read about the Ninja 300 a few days ago and I got really excited. It looks awesome, has a much-needed dashboard upgrade, more power, and the added safety features (ABS and slipper clutch) are nice.

I wish it were a bit lighter, though. If Kawasaki were to aggressively do some weight-loss engineering, they could probably easily get under 150 kg. The KTM Duke 690 weighs 149.5 kg (although without fuel), for comparison. Anyone know why the 250R and the new 300 aren't particularly light-weight? Would it cost so much more to use lighter materials?

Anyway, I think the new Ninja 300 will do well. The new features make it the supreme small-capacity motorcycle on the market, but Kawasaki will need to be sensitive with the pricing.

Its a steel vs aluminum thing..... Its amazing how much the difference makes.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Heed

Yep. IDK why we didn't get the fuel injected Ninja 250. Biggest fail in the first place.


Also I remember when I didn't know what Kawasaki was. My friend got a Brute Force, told me it was Kawasaki, great company, etc etc. and he laughed at me b/c I've never heard of them

Regardless, you had still heard of "Ninja." In some uninformed circles, it was almost a generic term for "sportbike." Like Kleenex for tissue, Q-tip for cotton swab, and Vaseline for petroleum jelly.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by Timr

compleatly agree that they are used for creating brand loyalty for when people upgrade to bigger bikes but i think the are a big money maker because acording to the same reference kawasaki sold 4882 bikes in the same time period. that 25% of their total sales.

i personally think a large conrtibutor to this is also with fuel prices constantly rising and new laws that have made it stupid hard to get a car licence young people are just getting bikes instead. we also have whats called the "L.A.M.S." (learner aproved motorcycle scheme) rule for bikes here which restricts what bikes people can ride on their learner and provisional licence. the lams scheme restricts people to a 250 with the exception of the rgv250, rs250 and other race replica 2 stroke 250's anthing over that has to be aproved by the government. if they dont then sales will take a Huge dive dive here to almost nothing... man i hope not just.

i am agreeing that its a great little thing but i think it might be harder for it here in aus compared to other bikes.

i also agree that without these rules in other countries that this will massively change the % world wide but still its a big hole. also

The AUS Ninja 300 promo videos specifically say that it complies with "new" LAMS rules. Ride on!

[CZroe]

I still don't get all you people who think the 250cc class disparity is an issue for the 300. The Megelli was never a serious entrant and the class has only included the CBR for the last year where before it may as well have been "the Ninja class." The class is not set in stone and it will just become the 300cc and under class. Simple.

The 600cc class wasn't a problem for the 636 for years until some clubs started getting a little picky and Kawi started to make two models (600 and 636) and eventually only offered 600. The 636 is back, so obviously Kawasaki doesn't mind making two models like in some past years or lobbying them to allow it anyway like in years before that.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

... and the 636 looks like it's 10 years ahead of the other Japanese 600s - but wow, the way they presented it: What a disaster.
...

I didn't watch the event. Did something "disastrous" happen?

Originally Posted by azn370z

I agree that the 300 is worth it to me because I know how much aftermarket parts cost on a bike or a car. But most buyers won't have a clue to the difference between the cbr250 and 300, except for the price. Just like the people that buy civics, toyotas, etc. There are some enthusiast that know a lot about civics but most of the buyers know little.

Regardless of whether or not they had a clue, they will get a clue before dropping over $4K. It's common sense to research what you are buying as well as alternatives.

Originally Posted by LoneRonin

how the hell has no one told you this yet...

Its the 'NINJA' name that sells first of all. its been around 30 or so years now and has the cool factor, plain and simple.

Then you look at the thing and its slaps the **** out of the CBR in the looks department. Even the current gen is better looking than the CBR.

Then all the noobies wanna go vroom vroom and beat their buddies in the Civics and Corollas, can't do that on the CBR.

This is an evolution for Kawi in the small cc segment.



and Jiggles in what dimension is 21 hp vs 31 hp a 50% increase??? Just off the top of my head its about 30%, which is still significant

Hey, genius: 30 is a 50% increase from 20. 20 is 2/3rds of 30, but that's not that same calculation at all.
50% of 20 is 10; 20 + 10 = 30.

To be exact:
50% of 21 is 10.5; 21 + 10.5 = 31.5

[LoneRonin]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Hey, genius: 30 is a 50% increase from 20. 20 is 2/3rds of 30, but that's not that same calculation at all.
50% of 20 is 10; 20 + 10 = 30.

To be exact:
50% of 21 is 10.5; 21 + 10.5 = 31.5

This confirms I suck at math...just realized now that you laid it out like that...
If it was double the HP it would be a 100% increase...got it.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

Yes, on a Kawasaki forum that's true - and for people who are already familiar with sport bikes. Ask 10 random people on the street who makes motorcycles and all 10 will say Honda, you'd be lucky if even one said Kawasaki.

FALSE. I don't even need to back up that with stats or note it as opinion because enough would agree that you'd simply have to be delusional to think that. You'd have better odds with scratch-off tickets. "Ninja" occupies an area of the public consciousness that Honda or Yamaha has no answer to. If you really think "R#" or "CBR#" equals "Ninja" in mind space, consider how often Kawasaki Ninja is used without a specific designation of which Ninja it really is. Could you really discuss an R6 or R1 without the number? CBR lands right in between. It's just too awkward and less-known to discuss like that outside of sportbike circles, and it doesn't even apply to their full line of sportbikes (VFRs). It's a class name beyond displacement class: It's marketing genius and it's something cellphone manufacturers are finally figuring out. Note the variety of "Samsung Galaxy" phones and how all Apple phones are "iPhone" phones. What works for Apple and Samsung... now we have HTC doing the same thing with "HTC one." CBR is closer to their equivalent of "ZX" than it is to "Ninja."

Originally Posted by CZroe

I didn't watch the event. Did something "disastrous" happen?



Regardless of whether or not they had a clue, they will get a clue before dropping over $4K. It's common sense to research what you are buying as well as alternatives.



Hey, genius: 30 is a 50% increase from 20. 20 is 2/3rds of 30, but that's not that same calculation at all.
50% of 20 is 10; 20 + 10 = 30.

To be exact:
50% of 21 is 10.5; 21 + 10.5 = 31.5

Heh heh. Word problems suck, but the key word was "increase," which set the point of reference to 21.

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by DougBR

For someone not to know Kawasaki or what a bike named Ninja is, it has to be an alien or something else out of this planet.
I have wanted (or lusted for) a Ninja since I was a kid back in the 80's-90's. But the thing about it is that I am from Brazil and Kawasaki didn't start selling Ninjas here until 2009. Before that there wasn't even a pregen here and I already wanted one, just from the name and the very few imported bigger Ninjas around. And there wasn't even internet back then. So, really, if you don't know Kawasaki, you are a alienated person (if that word makes sense in English)

I saw a ZX9R in an accident/road rage video out of Brazil. Was it a gray-market import? They haven't made those in a very long time.

[DougBR]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I saw a ZX9R in an accident/road rage video out of Brazil. Was it a gray-market import? They haven't made those in a very long time.

There are a few of those around here... they are selling a used one for about the same price as a brand new 250r

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by CZroe

FALSE. I don't even need to back up that with stats or note it as opinion because enough would agree that you'd simply have to be delusional to think that. You'd have better odds with scratch-off tickets. "Ninja" occupies an area of the public consciousness that Honda or Yamaha has no answer to. If you really think "R#" or "CBR#" equals "Ninja" in mind space, consider how often Kawasaki Ninja is used without a specific designation of which Ninja it really is. Could you really discuss an R6 or R1 without the number? CBR lands right in between. It's just too awkward and less-known to discuss like that outside of sportbike circles, and it doesn't even apply to their full line of sportbikes (VFRs). It's a class name beyond displacement class: It's marketing genius and it's something cellphone manufacturers are finally figuring out. Note the variety of "Samsung Galaxy" phones and how all Apple phones are "iPhone" phones. What works for Apple and Samsung... now we have HTC doing the same thing with "HTC one." CBR is closer to their equivalent of "ZX" than it is to "Ninja."

I think you're the first person to actually think that the fact that Kawasaki names 10 different bikes across the sport and supersport categories "Ninja" is actually a good marketing idea.

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that among people not registered to a Kawasaki forum, Kawasaki has the lowest name recognition and the lowest sales among the "big 4" Japanese manufacturers to the general public.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Kawasaki makes the worst bikes out of the 4 and doesn't deserve more sales. I've been on the latest generation ZX6R and it was a phenomenal street bike with exceptional forks, brakes, transmission and engine - couldn't find a fault unlike the GSXR and R6 equivalents (but I still think between the CBR600 vs last generation ZX6R the CBR600 is a better street bike, ZX6R better track bike). If quality actually made a difference I think Kawasaki would have #1 sales, but the fact is they don't sell as much as the other four. That's just reality (http://www.ultimatemotorcycling.com/...wn-0-9-percent)

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

I think you're the first person to actually think that the fact that Kawasaki names 10 different bikes across the sport and supersport categories "Ninja" is actually a good marketing idea.

Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that among people not registered to a Kawasaki forum, Kawasaki has the lowest name recognition ... among the "big 4" Japanese manufacturers to the general public.
...

Except that's absolutely NOT true. Take a nondescript drawing of a generic sportbike with no branding and ask 10 people who don't even ride to identify the unidentifiable bike without even mentioning Japan. Less than half of the people with a relevant answer ("I don't know" or "Toyota" wouldn't count) would fail to mention "Kawasaki," "Ninja," "Ninja-like," "something like a Ninja," etc. Say what you will about their sales, but Kawasaki/Ninja has THAT MUCH of the public mindset when it comes to sportbikes. Half of the people responding will think that Honda and Suzuki only make cars.

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I didn't watch the event. Did something "disastrous" happen?

The event was incredibly boring at the same time being corny, poorly paced, and lacked any kind of excitement factor. It really did nothing to build the Kawasaki brand or make a lasting impression in my mind. I only got excited after I looked into the ZX6R afterwords that it seems to be a really great package.

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by CZroe

Except that's absolutely NOT true. Take a nondescript drawing of a generic sportbike with no branding and ask 10 people who don't even ride to identify the unidentifiable bike. Less than half would fail to mention "Kawasaki," "Ninja," "Ninja-like," "something like a Ninja," etc. Say what you will about their sales, but Kawasaki has THAT MUCH of the public mindset when it comes to sportbikes. Half the people responding will think that Honda and Suzuki only make cars.

Simply wrong, but we'll have to agree to disagree. IMO If they did have that kind of name recognition they wouldn't have such low sales relative to the competition. You really ask 10 random people not associated with a Kawasaki forum they will say Honda.

We'll agree to disagree here.

Edit: And about Suzuki making cars, you might want to check with the general public if they even know Suzuku makes cars - look at their car sales numbers in North America

[CZroe]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

Simply wrong, but we'll have to agree to disagree. IMO If they did have that kind of name recognition they wouldn't have such low sales relative to the competition. You really ask 10 random people not associated with a Kawasaki forum they will say Honda.

We'll agree to disagree here.

I'll do more than disagree. If I had money, I would put money on it. Instead, I will print up an image from Sportbike Funnies and live-stream over Looxcie Live as I ask complete strangers if you don't believe me.

Originally Posted by ninjaone

Edit: And about Suzuki making cars, you might want to check with the general public if they even know Suzuku makes cars - look at their car sales numbers in North America

Doesn't change the fact that they advertise and most everyone has heard them. MAC trucks and Peterbuilts have a similarly low sales percentage too, but we generally know what they are. The real-world disconnect between sales and recognition only proves my point elsewhere. FWIW, I edited my last post too.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

What? Who is adding slipper clutches, webbed wheels, supersport fairings, ugly quiet exhausts and boring the engine?

Thought this new motor got Stroked?

[ninjaone]

Originally Posted by CZroe

I'll do more than disagree. If I had money, I would put money on it. Instead, I will print up an image from Sportbike Funnies and live-stream over Looxcie Live as I ask complete strangers if you don't believe me.

It would be interesting to see but of course it wouldn't count as data.

Doesn't change the fact that they advertise and most everyone has heard them. MAC trucks and Peterbuilts have a similarly low sales percentage too, but we generally know what they are. The real-world disconnect between sales and recognition only proves my point elsewhere. FWIW, I edited my last post too.

That's not a great example because the general public doesn't buy trucks. Just like the 747 is one of the most famous airplanes doesn't say anything about it's sales numbers. The disconnect between brand recognition and sales is relatively huge in commercial business to business products like that compared with a customer product like a motorcycle. Can you think of a single consumer product which has huge public mind share but lower sales numbers? It simply doesn't happen, not with Kleenex, not with dish detergent, not with shoes, not with clothes and not with motorcycles.

[Heed]

Ever since I got into motorcycles I nearly forgot Suzuki made cars.

[Jiggles]

Someone go to a mall Wth a camera and ask people some questions to shut this guy up

[Surferboy120]

This fail thread is a fail. Everyone has an opinion so that's nice to know.

[Boom King]

Originally Posted by ninjaone

Can you think of a single consumer product which has huge public mind share but lower sales numbers?

BlackBerry

Public brand recognition doesn't exactly translate into sales just by itself. There are other aspects of the marketing mix that manufacturers have to satisfy to enjoy sales success.

[Heed]

Xerox maybe.

You never hear anyone say "Be right back, I need to HP some copies"

but HP is failing hard right now. probably a bad example

[ninjaone]

You really think blackberry has more public mindset in 2012 then either Apple or Android? Maybe 6 years ago, but not today. If you ask people to name a smart phone today blackberry would be a distant third among brands recognized. Blackberry had the business market locked down a while ago but was never at the level Apple or Android is today with the general public.

I'm not sure why you guys are fighting so hard and are so emotionally invested in the idea that Kawasaki has the lead in "public perception". It's not like having public perception implies anything when it comes to product quality or anything. If anything, a company with lower public perception has to try harder to differentiate itself beyond just the brand name recognition, which Kawasaki is doing - it's latest ZX6R is far far more advanced then any of it's rivals at this point. Same with the new 300.

[Boom King]

Despite losing ground to competitors, BlackBerry is still one of the most recognized global brands. You asked about consumer products that had a huge brand awareness not necessarily who had the most. History is full of examples of brands which enjoyed massive public recognition yet their products failed due to a multitude of factors.

[ninjaone]

I see you're from Canada so you probably have a skewed view of the blackberry brand. It was never on the same level with customers as Apple or Android is today in customer's minds. Business yes, general public no.

If history is full of them you should be able to name a few. If the best example you can come up with is Blackberry then I say that's an argument in my favor.

Besides, I still don't get why you guys care so much, for all the reasons I mentioned before, having a strong brand doesn't mean anything when it comes to actual products, so again, why do you care that Kawasaki is a distant fourth in sales and brand among the big 4?

[Alex]

Put up or shut up.

Post the numbers, or stop the crap.

This website is for fans of kawis and fans of ninjettes. If you're here to bash that, this doesn't make you an informed and articulate consumer. It makes you come off as a bit of a tool who doesn't understand his audience.

[Boom King]

You're jumping to assumptions based on what little demographic info you know of me. I'm an Android user btw.

Blockbuster, Dell, Kodak, GM, Ford, Nokia, Sears, Sony, Nintendo, Yahoo, Toys "R" Us, Best Buy, Microsoft (pretty much any product other than its software in its monopolized market). All hugely recognizable brands that have struggled in the past or currently.