dbl apex technique ?

[jrshooter]

would like to know if im on the right track.
a very fast sweeper (80+) with a kink at the exit, starting the esses.
buttonwillow sweeper.
i trail in past a early apex, run some neutral throttle,then get on the the throttle. to run wide and set up for the second apex. at the 2nd turn in, i roll off the throttle to tighten my line, to hit the second apex.
my question is, using the throttle on and off to adjust my line, is this correct?

[csmith12]

My first inclination to answer your question is to pose another question to you. Can you get through the section with better steering to allow you stay on the throttle longer?

In general, I always find a good line with a turn point that allows excellent throttle control. You comment "neutral throttle", which tells me something can be optimized, line (includes steering), throttle, brakes, markers, ect.

Honesty: Sometimes pause my throttle roll, but this is normally due to a mistake that I had made before. When it feels right... I am very black and white, on the gas or on the brake.

One of the best kept secrets to racing and riding extremely fast is to out steer your competition. Anyone can twist the throttle, it takes real skill to steer accurately AND with quickness. For example, the difference in steering skills between a N group rider and an A group rider is night and day.

FACT: You will never enter a corner (on purpose) any faster than your ability to steer the bike on a line that gets you through the corner. And if you do enter any faster than that, well... we know what happens, either get lucky or worse. :\

EDIT: Your question is in effect, steering with the rear. Is it right or wrong? There is no definitive answer imho, it's a tool that you can use when the time is right. Perhaps someone who is fast and has ridden that track can also comment to shed more light specifically to that section for you.

[csmith12]

Also, the title of your post is not quite what you asked, but that is ok. TRUE double apex corners are quite rare on tracks around my parts. However, many trackday orgs prefer a double apex through hairpins because of the additional safety added. Others masquerade as an altered line that gets you through linked corners as if they were one, in effect... apexing 2 seperate corners.

[csmith12]

Lastly, go to youtube and search for "hook turn." Building this skill can tighten your line without breaking throttle control rule #1.

[jrshooter]

thank csmith ill reply more later , im home for lunch and have to run.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by jrshooter

....... my question is, using the throttle on and off to adjust my line, is this correct?

Consider that while using the throttle on and off, you are changing the way the suspension works and the way the weight of the bike and you is distributed between the rear and front tires.

A 60/40 rear/front rate is desired for max traction.
Be careful not to overload the front contact patch and to reduce the useful stroke of the front suspension unnecessarily.
Each time that you are not accelerating, that desired rate changes against the capability of the front tire, which is the weakest link, and you get closer to the worst way to lowside fall: front tucking.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=185205

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=206252

The golden rule to observe as much as possible is to decelerate over straight trajectories just before curves and moderately accelerate over curves.
The most effective way to change trajectory is "to steer accurately AND with quickness", as @csmith12 has explained above.

[jrshooter]

here is a drawing
warning not to scale

[jrshooter]

this whole corner the knee is down

[jrshooter]

this is the line given by our afm pro
he is not on a 300

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by jrshooter

here is a drawing
........

http://www.sportrider.com/conquering...rs-when-riding

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/neg...radius-corners

[jrshooter]

Originally Posted by Motofool

http://www.sportrider.com/conquering...rs-when-riding

http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/neg...radius-corners

i understand im on the double apex line, was wondering if i was handling it right with throttle controll

[csmith12]

Imma draw on your pic here in a bit John, stay tuned.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Imma draw on your pic here in a bit John, stay tuned.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by jrshooter

here is a drawing
warning not to scale

The line looks fine but you mention that you get on the throttle to make the bike run wider.....does getting on the throttle make a bike run wide?

[jrshooter]

Originally Posted by Misti

The line looks fine but you mention that you get on the throttle to make the bike run wider.....does getting on the throttle make a bike run wide?

in my limited knowledge, it seams like i can adjust my line with the throttle.
maybe related or not, turn in seams easier while trailing in, versus the same while accelerating.

[jrshooter]

misti i would say this
if my lean angle remains the same , a slower speed = tighter line
a faster speed = a wider line

[Misti]

Originally Posted by jrshooter

in my limited knowledge, it seams like i can adjust my line with the throttle.
maybe related or not, turn in seams easier while trailing in, versus the same while accelerating.

There are two different things being talked about here. First of all, getting on the gas in a corner and following the throttle control rule of "rolling on smoothly evenly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn" will not make a bike run wide but will allow you to have a consistent line.

2. Your line will change depending on what you do with the gas but not necessarily the way you were outlining in your drawing.

From Twist of the Wrist II "Off the gas transfers weight forward, tending to make the bike stand up and run wide. On the gas too much does the same thing. (Note: if you think your bike goes tot he inside of the turn when you come off the gas, you're unconsciously steering it to the inside. Tire profiles and suspension settings may have an effect on this as well.)

3. What you are talking about above when you say turn in seems easier when trailing in as opposed to when accelerating is true, but it's not the same as rolling on the gas and having the bike run wide....does that make sense?

If you are trying to turn a bike with the gas still ON or while accelerating, it's going to be a lot harder then trying to turn it when the gas is off and weight is forward.

So back to your original drawing...or how to take a double apex corner...it follows the same rule as a regular corner, get the bike turned as quickly as possible and as soon as the bike is turned get the gas cracked on...once it is on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly and constantly * But instead of rolling it on ALL THE WAY THROUGH THE CORNER...you'd have to pause on the gas, or roll off slightly to get the bike turned and on line for the next apex before rolling on again.

According to your drawing I'd have you getting on the gas earlier, as soon as the bike was turned, rolling it on almost all the way to the second turn in point, then holding it flat or rolling it off, turning the bike and doing the same thing again.

This ties into what CSMITH is saying about choosing a line and steering quickly to allow you to stay on the gas longer.

Does this make sense? I feel a bit rushed writing this as I have to run and pick up my kids from school so sorry if it's not as clear as it could be....I'll come back to it asap.

Misti

[jrshooter]

misti point #3, i believe i do this, not to perfection. alot more aggressive on the throttle, always believed if i was on a bigger bike it could be costly.
maybe i need more entry speed, so i can use the throttle more gently ?

[jrshooter]

i really want to master this corner, its my Nemesis,
if you hit the exit perfectly , you turn the zig zag esses into a 5 foot wide straight as a arrow drag strip, if not say goodbye to the bikes that do.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by jrshooter

misti point #3, i believe i do this, not to perfection. alot more aggressive on the throttle, always believed if i was on a bigger bike it could be costly.
maybe i need more entry speed, so i can use the throttle more gently ?

So let me just clarify. You say point #3 you believe you do this....do you mean you turn the bike while trailing in and then get on the gas but get on too aggressively? Or do you mean you are trying to turn the bike with some throttle already on (and accelerating aggressively?)

Let's just clarify exactly what you are doing and work from there....before trying to add more entry speed

[jrshooter]

Originally Posted by Misti

So let me just clarify. You say point #3 you believe you do this....do you mean you turn the bike while trailing in and then get on the gas but get on too aggressively? Or do you mean you are trying to turn the bike with some throttle already on (and accelerating aggressively?)

Let's just clarify exactly what you are doing and work from there....before trying to add more entry speed

at first turn in, and past 1st apex, im trailing in, and running a inside line.
get hard on the gas drift to outside , i roll of throttle(decellerate) for 2nd turn in.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by jrshooter

at first turn in, and past 1st apex, im trailing in, and running a inside line.
get hard on the gas drift to outside , i roll of throttle(decellerate) for 2nd turn in.

What if you were able to get on the gas earlier (before or near the first apex?) what would the benefit be?

You say this turn is your nemesis? what goes wrong for you, what is the issue you are trying to solve?

[csmith12]

John, if you have any video of you going through that section, it would be awesome.

[jrshooter]

Originally Posted by Misti

What if you were able to get on the gas earlier (before or near the first apex?) what would the benefit be?

You say this turn is your nemesis? what goes wrong for you, what is the issue you are trying to solve?

going through this with you guys has me thinking. i believe my problem is,
a lack of a second turn in marker, the exit is critical on this turn. sometimes i hit the exit, sometimes i dont.

[jrshooter]

Originally Posted by csmith12

John, if you have any video of you going through that section, it would be awesome.

when my son comes up tues ill trow a vid up for you.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by jrshooter

going through this with you guys has me thinking. i believe my problem is,
a lack of a second turn in marker, the exit is critical on this turn. sometimes i hit the exit, sometimes i dont.

Great point. How many reference points DO you have in this corner? How many should you have for any given corner? Does it change for a double apex or a long sweeper?

[jrshooter]

Originally Posted by Misti

Great point. How many reference points DO you have in this corner? How many should you have for any given corner? Does it change for a double apex or a long sweeper?

i have for this turn
1-brake marker
2- 1st apex
3- here it get iffy, #2 turn in marker is when i see the candy stripes at 2nd apex, this is to vague. my run to second apex varies to much, left or right.
i think i need to pick up a more definitive marker that keeps me on course to second turn in.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by jrshooter

i have for this turn
1-brake marker
2- 1st apex
3- here it get iffy, #2 turn in marker is when i see the candy stripes at 2nd apex, this is to vague. my run to second apex varies to much, left or right.
i think i need to pick up a more definitive marker that keeps me on course to second turn in.

So if you had a definitive marker to look at once you know you are going to hit your first apex, would you be able to have a more predictable line? Would it help you get to that second apex?

[jrshooter]

Originally Posted by Misti

So if you had a definitive marker to look at once you know you are going to hit your first apex, would you be able to have a more predictable line? Would it help you get to that second apex?

yes
but what sucks is, its going to be 4 mos before im there again.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by jrshooter

yes
but what sucks is, its going to be 4 mos before im there again.

Totally get that. It's always a long time between track riding for me as well. I sure do miss the days of coaching full time and riding 100 days of the year!