Clutch plates stuck?

[dragono]

Hey guys and gals. Got a power transmission issues.
Bikes starts up fine in neutral. I go to pop her in first she thonks hard but I can let go of clutch cable fully and it will still idle just fine in first without moving. However, my back tire will not move at all. In neutral it will spin freely like it should but it doesn't stall in first with no clutch like its suppose to and tire won't budge (like its suppose to ifat a stop)

[Ghostt]

Okay I'm a little fuzzy on your question. Are you saying with the rear tire on the ground, you put the bike in first, then release the clutch all the way, and nothing happens??? No movement, not stalling, like the clutch isn't even there, totally slipping etc....

[dragono]

Start up with bike in neutral. She runs I can roll her. Hold clutch put her into first. She clunks hard, but when I let go of clutch nothing happens. Back wheel is locked like she's in first but seems as though no power is being transmitted to the wheel. I can rev it freely with the clutch free (not pulled in)

[Ghostt]

Okay, questions time, has the bike sat for a period of time? Last oil change? Type of oil used? Have you removed the clutch cover?

Anything else going on at the same time, of just before that might have caused the issue?

[dragono]

Honesty time, I have taken the engine off another 250 that was badly burned. The engine has been sitting for a while. I drained it of all oil a few months ago however upon acquiring a bike that needed a good engine I got this bad boy out of storage. Replenished the oil supply I use 10-40. And I have not opened up the cover yet.

I'm thinking the freezing temps have made the plates stick together but I'm
Not sure if they would manifest this way. I would think the engine would immediately die when put into first if that was the case.

[garth285]

If the plates stuck together you would have a "no clutch" situation meaning even with the clutch pulled in the rear wheel keep rolling.

Sounds like you have a severely worn out clutch pack meaning the steels and fibers do not contact at all, preventing the transmission shafts NOT to move.

Pop that clutch cover off and inspect the clutch. Post pictures if you can!

[Ghostt]

Okay, if I'm understanding you, then it's an easy fix, your suffering from a dry clutch plates. I would recommend remove the side cover, remove the 4 bolts that also hold the springs in, remove the plates, and steels, inspect them for wear and tear, if ok then soak them in oil, overnight. If not, a clutch kits in your future.

Also be sure to inspect, the clutch cable, clutch linkage, clutch springs, etc...... Don't assume a part is "OKAY" until you have inspected it.


The Ninjette has a wet clutch, so when one has sat for awhile the clutch dries out. Also keep in mind to be aware of the type of oil you use, some of the modern oils contain additives to be more slippery, which is NOT good for a wet clutch as it will cause slippage.

Personally I use SHELL ROTELLA T6 synthetic, available at Wal-Mart for about $20.00 a gallon

[garth285]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

Okay, easy fix, your suffering from a dry clutch plates. I would recommend remove the side cover, remove the 4 bolts that also hole the springs in, remove the plates, and steels, then soak them in oil, overnight.

The Ninjette has a wet clutch, so when one has sat for awhile the clutch dries out. Also keep in mind to be aware of the type of oil you use, some of the modern oils contain additives to be more slippery, which is NOT good for a wet clutch as it will cause slippage.

Personally I use SHELL ROTELLA T6 synthetic, available at Wal-Mart for about $20.00 a gallon

I have never seen a clutch pack dry out but I guess that could happen!!!

+1 on the Rotella T6 Synthetic Great stuff!

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by garth285

I have never seen a clutch pack dry out but I guess that could happen!!!

+1 on the Rotella T6 Synthetic Great stuff!

It does happen with wet clutch if they sit for a long time, most of the time, if you just start the engine, let it warm up and keep working the clutch it usually takes care of its self.

I'm his case I would personally recommend doing an R.D.I. on the the clutch pack along with the other hardware.



Good luck, and don't worry it's an easy job, just take your time.

Below is pictures of my clutch, and the upgraded springs I installed, due to the old ones are soft for Kawasaki anyway.

The OEM ones have the yellow paint stripe, the HD springs have red, notice the height difference between them.

[ninjunk]

wait wait... he is saying that it is idling in first gear with the clutch out and the rear wheel is not turning, and is locked instead.

that sounds to me like something more serious. If the plates were stuck the rear wheel would be turning whether or not the clutch lever was pulled.


usually when i get a stuck clutch i pull the clutch, rev it up, and slam it into gear. The clutch usually breaks free after doing a pretty solid wheelie. Just had to do it a couple weeks ago with a 600cc KTM... that one put some hair on my nuts.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by ninjunk

wait wait... he is saying that it is idling in first gear with the clutch out and the rear wheel is not turning, and is locked instead.

that sounds to me like something more serious. If the plates were stuck the rear wheel would be turning whether or not the clutch lever was pulled.


usually when i get a stuck clutch i pull the clutch, rev it up, and slam it into gear. The clutch usually breaks free after doing a pretty solid wheelie. Just had to do it a couple weeks ago with a 600cc KTM... that one put some hair on my nuts.

Hence my advice to R.D.I.

[dragono]

Hmmm ok I will take out the clutch and see what there is to see. Will most likely be Thursday. I hope it's just a clutch basket issues I can deal with that. An actual gear issue would just scare me.
Will report back. Thank you guys so much.

Update: Whats an RDI?
Also is the clutch pack is crappy should I replace just the friction plates or plates steels and springs?

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by dragono

Hmmm ok I will take out the clutch and see what there is to see. Will most likely be Thursday. I hope it's just a clutch basket issues I can deal with that. An actual gear issue would just scare me.
Will report back. Thank you guys so much.

Update: Whats an RDI?
Also is the clutch pack is crappy should I replace just the friction plates or plates steels and springs?

R EMOVE
D ISASSEMBLE
I NSPECTION

Odds are the clutch pack friction/steels are fine, Kawasaki used them for the KZ1000, so there pretty much bulletproof.

Personally if the pack is fine, order the HD springs, those are the weak link in that chain.

If in fact the whole pack is shot(friction & steel), I would just order the complete kit from Barrett, or any other name brand Source.

Also here's some excellent reading you should look at,
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Clutch_%26_Transmission

[dragono]

Clutch plates are just fine. None are stuck to steels. However I still have to same issue in that as soon as I go from nuetral to first all I get is a locked back wheel. If it's a gear issue I have parts from another 250 ninja I can swap in but that's a road I have yet to travel down.

Also, it seems as though it's
Not actually catching first the usual soft thud of going into first that was a clunk is now nothing more than a tap. As if the thing didn't shift at all.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by dragono

Clutch plates are just fine. None are stuck to steels. However I still have to same issue in that as soon as I go from nuetral to first all I get is a locked back wheel. If it's a gear issue I have parts from another 250 ninja I can swap in but that's a road I have yet to travel down.

Also, it seems as though it's
Not actually catching first the usual soft thud of going into first that was a clunk is now nothing more than a tap. As if the thing didn't shift at all.

Okay, well let's adjusting the gear selector next, and just for the hell of it have you tried just shifting into second instead? And I assume the bike is running while your doing all this right?

Some notes on how it should be, the shift mechanisim can be completlly locked if badly out of adjustment. What you want is the levers on both ends to form as close to a 90 deg. angls to the rod at rest condition. On the shift pedal the line from the ball end of the rod to the pivot bolt centerline is the angle I mean. I you think of the levers as a full circle the rod should be tangent to that circle on both ends

If this fails, I'm out of ideas, next step start checking the shift mechanism, then .......

[dragono]

Snow ran me inside, I will adjust in the morning. However, I dont think that will change the issue much. What would be signs of gearing gone bad? Also, yes its shifting to first when running and not running however I cant shift to second, I havent really tried the the back wheel off the ground however I will try that tomorrow.

[Ghostt]

Sometimes you have to try all the simple, easy, and cheap stuff and hope for the best. But either we are missing something stupid, or you do have a serious problem.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by dragono

Snow ran me inside, I will adjust in the morning. However, I dont think that will change the issue much. What would be signs of gearing gone bad? Also, yes its shifting to first when running and not running however I cant shift to second, I havent really tried the the back wheel off the ground however I will try that tomorrow.

Why can't you shift into second? You should be able to

[dragono]

I cant because of that safety feature built in to these models. Gotta be moving to shift into second.

[dragono]

Ok tried re setting the lever to about 90 but im not getting to much out of them.
Heres a link to a video I just took.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uomo...ature=youtu.be

Starts up in neutral back wheel spins
put her into first without clutching it, back tire immediately stops
pull clutch in and the tire will stop spinning so clutch itself semi works.

Is this a weak clutch springs issue?

[Ghostt]

Okay my thinking cap is on....... Stay tuned

Okay well the spinning is normal due to spinning stuff in the engine, oil etc......

Okay so it's on the center stand, you POP it in gear, what happens when you give it some throttle??

[dragono]

I can shift softly or stomp on the shifter, still get the same super soft shift. If i rev it there's no difference with the tire. I'm really starting to think its the springs.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by dragono

I can shift softly or stomp on the shifter, still get the same super soft shift. If i rev it there's no difference with the tire. I'm really starting to think its the springs.

So the tire doesn't move all?

[dragono]

Nope, not in first gear. I can let out the clutch completely and still be stationary.

[Ghostt]

Okay, I'm gonna do some thinking on this one, to be honest I'm kinda stumped.

It's either something really simple or extremely difficult.

I'm off to meditate...........

[jkv45]

What happens if you have someone spin the wheel while you try to shift up to second gear?

Does the clutch action feel right?

[dragono]

I actually got it into the higher gears. Some quick hand work. But alas no joy, no difference in the feeling of the clutch. At one point i completely disassembled the clutch cable just to ensure there was no pressure on the pressure plate.

Edit. I think the pressure plate was reinstalled incorrectly. Sometime before me, I could tell by the different gasket, supposedly the plate must be installed in a very specific way or else you get the same exact issue I am experiencing.

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25301

See guys I do atleast try to help myself. Im going to re inspect tomorrow, hopefully its off.

[dragono]

Welp, that was the issue guys. Rotated the pressure plate 90 degrees. Put her back together. Turned her on, shifted to first and boom stalled instantly. Still had the issues of the back wheel locking up. Even when I had high rpms. Soooooo, I revved her up to WOT. Slammed it into first , after the second time she finally came loose. Took her around the block and all is well except I think I now have a slight fuel issue, if I WOT from almost idle she'll either die or hesitate for about 1-1.5 seconds before hitting it. Mid range and upper range rpms are good. I'm assuming it's the pilot jet?

[Ghostt]

good deal, glad to hear that, knew it was something easy, that was overlooked.

See aren't you glad you didn't just dive into the transmission now???

as far as the carbs go, a meticulous cleaning, and then tuning.

[crazymadbastard]

Originally Posted by dragono

Welp, that was the issue guys. Rotated the pressure plate 90 degrees. Put her back together. Turned her on, shifted to first and boom stalled instantly. Still had the issues of the back wheel locking up. Even when I had high rpms. Soooooo, I revved her up to WOT. Slammed it into first , after the second time she finally came loose. Took her around the block and all is well except I think I now have a slight fuel issue, if I WOT from almost idle she'll either die or hesitate for about 1-1.5 seconds before hitting it. Mid range and upper range rpms are good. I'm assuming it's the pilot jet?

That is good news, I see a carb clean and tune in your future.

[dragono]

This is the third carb cleaning I've done on this bike in the last 3 weeks. Surprisingly just noticed theres no air filter installed maybe thats my issue haha.

Now that I think about it though I can run my other ninja with no air box at all and she perks up immediately. I think she is up jetted because the filter is a K and N free flow type. Previous owner install. Think a nice .40 mm pilot jet would solve my issue. I want to say the filter will solve my issue but I partially covered that air box holes simulating constructive air. The rpms went up noticibly but if I wot immedialy it's the same effect .

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by dragono

This is the third carb cleaning I've done on this bike in the last 3 weeks. Surprisingly just noticed theres no air filter installed maybe thats my issue haha.

Now that I think about it though I can run my other ninja with no air box at all and she perks up immediately. I think she is up jetted because the filter is a K and N free flow type. Previous owner install. Think a nice .40 mm pilot jet would solve my issue. I want to say the filter will solve my issue but I partially covered that air box holes simulating constructive air. The rpms went up noticibly but if I wot immedialy it's the same effect .

Okay????????

the airbox is there for a reason, why do you think Kawasaki designed, manufactured, cost, and installed it, it serves an important function, and is needed for the the carburetors to function properly.

I would highly recommend that you DO NOT REMOVE THE AIR BOX, the carburetors on the bike are CV type and need to box to function properly, buy a K&N that fits the OEM airbox(K&N KA-2508 Kawasaki High Performance Replacement Air Filter by K&N* *Amazon.com: K&N KA-2508 Kawasaki High Performance Replacement Air Filter: Automotive* ) that's the short version.

Long boring but important answer, CV carbs stands for "constant velocity". The function of the carbs is dependent on having a calm reservoir (airbox) from which to intake air at said constant velocity. Pods draw from the turbulent, unpredictable air swirling past them as you ride, which is anything but constant. Other carbs work fine with pods. CV's = no bueno, save yourself the headaches.

Now onto jetting, first you need to tune the idle mixture screws first, I recommend 3 full turns out from bottom as a good starting point, then fine tune them afterwards. As far as buying a jet kit, I personally don't have one on either my 250, or 500 ninjas. I did got up one size on my main jets, due to they are lean from the factory, and shimmed the main needles with a small washer.

Your issues are due to poor maintenance, they need to be professional cleaned, and then tuning, has a fuel filter been installed?

As far as increasing the pilot jet size, unnecessary, adjusting the jet screws 3x out, and then dial them in.

Warm it up, turn 1 side pilot screw in until the rpms drop, then back out till RPM's peak (and no further)* Twist throttle...see how it reacts...tweak to taste.
Repeat on other side... test ride. You're looking for best throttle response and transition from just cracked to 1/4 throttle opening or so.*

Thats a quickie, 10 cent tutorial on setting pilot screws.**

The only jet increase that is needed , maybe is the main jets and only one size increase is needed, and maybe a single shim.

And might as well cover carburetor synchronization while I'm here,

You can get a reasonable sync with the carbs in hand. Back the idle adjustment off to close that carb then match the second carb to it with the sync screw. You can then turn the idle adjustment up while using a thin feeler gauge (maybe .002") between the throttle plate and the throttle bore, adjust to just fit, and then check the second one and adjust to match. If you have good feel for this it will run fine once installed.*

It would do folks well to take a minute to review and understand what a sync tool does, how it works. And take another minute to look at the carb linkage and sync adjustments available to fix irregularities that might occur. It can help take some of the mystery out of this as well as stop unnecessary carb sync screwups.*

Meaning, that the carbs were right once, the butterflies were matched and it performed well, but then changed. Undecided And the problem somehow occurred in the butterfly direct shafts, or the sync screw turned or wore that pad that it rests on, or the carburetor pairing/ bridging brackets twisted in relation to each other, and enough so that the butterflies no longer operated in sync, such that performance noticeably suffered. And a fix will be accomplished by changing the butterfly position, the only thing the sync adjustment does. Hmmm. Really? Undecided*

Meanwhile, the tool measures vacuum at each individual runner. That's all it does, how it works. And vacuum is effected by a huge list of things, butterfly position being only one of them, and the only one addressed with that tool while turning those sync screws. The rest of that list includes, valve adjustment, jetting, float level, compression differences between cylinders caused by wear as well as factory CC differences in the head, intake runner, as well as flow by port variations, etc. Variations in cams, wear or factory tolerance. Then there's the potential big one, pilot jets and pilot screw mixture settings. All of those effect the vacuum and will be read by the sync tool, accurately identifyng the difference that exists, and with the only adjustment being used to "correct" the problem, move the butterfly relationship, one to the next.*

It's that clear understanding that has me of the opinion and long time practice to not touch the sync screws on a set of carbs that were right once and were never dismantled from the rack. And jet cleaning as well as float needle changing doesn't require that they be dismantled. And further, if I DID dismantle a set of carbs, I just matched the butterflies on the bench at assembly, using a feeler gauge, and then never touched them again, never gave them another thought.*

That method, properly executed, will have THAT portion of the complete equation, balanced flow to each cylinder in a multi-cylinder/ carb application due to butterfly position, satisfied entirely adequately. And in fact, it has worked for me every time I've done it on every bike (as well as individual runner/ butterfly V-8 intakes, all eight) that I've ever owned or any that I've fixed for others. And the times I fixed for others was usually after an attempt by others to sync the carbs, chasing a problem, or sometimes not even chasing a problem, but one they created wth a sync tool, chasing a problem from that list, that was never a butterfly position change problem. Those linkages are so direct and simple that they don't know how to screw themselves up. Not enough to care about.*

I'm sure this will start a lot of controversy so I won't argue it, just offering it for those who understand the whole picture that I outlined and might make good use of it. It is what I've done, on every engine I ever worked on, including blue printed racing engines as well as regular old, high mileage street stuff. I've had at least four, four cylinder bikes with over 100,000 miles that ran quite well, the whole time, and never had a carb sync performed. When they did finally get a total disassembly, this is how I set them up, on the bench. Over the years I've straightened out at least a half dozen messed up ones, probably more, and on the bench, after fixing the original problem which was fouled pilot jets.*

I only posted this because it seems like its coming up fairly often, especially with problems from a sync gone bad. One I would suggest was never a sync problem to begin with. A big or sudden change in performance is NEVER a sync problem. NEVER. Remember that. Cool If there is a problem, and you connect the gauges? YES, there will definitely be an imbalance indicated. But because that hole has a problem that is from the rest of the list. A bad plug, a plugged pilot jet, a screwed up float, a bad valve or setting, etc. Every one of them effecting the vacuum in the intake but NOT from a sudden move of a butterfly position, a sync adjustment.

BUT, you first need to get it running properly first before you start messing around with stuff, otherwise you'll be doing a lot more unnecessary posts.


In the end it's your call, either take the advice or not.

I'm not your mom, I don't buy your parts, it's your bike, your money, your time.


SIDENOTE: I only make house calls in the warm weather months.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by dragono

Welp, that was the issue guys. Rotated the pressure plate 90 degrees. Put her back together. Turned her on, shifted to first and boom stalled instantly. Still had the issues of the back wheel locking up. Even when I had high rpms. Soooooo, I revved her up to WOT. Slammed it into first , after the second time she finally came loose. Took her around the block and all is well except I think I now have a slight fuel issue, if I WOT from almost idle she'll either die or hesitate for about 1-1.5 seconds before hitting it. Mid range and upper range rpms are good. I'm assuming it's the pilot jet?

I have to ask, did you remove and soak the clutches in oil, as I suggested earlier????

I'm confused about the whole rotate the pressure plate part???? Just because there is no pressure plate. Please indicate which part #s your referring to.

[fast1075]

The pressure plate is indexed to the basket. If you install it out of index, it will not apply any pressure to the clutch pack. There are indexing dots cast into the parts.

The best way to diagnose a problem like this is pretty simple. With the engine off, put the transmission in first gear. You may have to rock the bike back and forth some to align the dogs. (A) Does it go in gear? (it will not roll) if YES, the shifter and transmission work. (B) Now pull in the clutch. if it still will not roll, the plates are stuck together, or the clutch release mechanism has a problem, either adjustment, or something broke. Hint: If every thing was working prior to letting the bike sit. it didn't break any parts just sitting, the plates are stuck together.

If you put it in gear and can roll it, it is either NOT in gear, has something in the transmission broken, or the clutch is for whatever reason released. The weirdest one I ever saw, was that the spines on the output shaft for the drive sprocket had worn out, and the front sprocket would turn effortlessly while in gear.

For experience, do this. With bike in neutral, engine off, push it. It should roll effortlessly (if it doesn't, the chain is dry and kinked, or the brakes are dragging, or you have a piece of Yamaha wedged between the tire and front fender.

Now, with the engine off, put it in first gear, pull in the clutch, and push the bike. It will roll, but not nearly as easy because the clutch plates add some drag.

My 250, if it sits a few days always has a balky clutch when I first crank it. I warm the bike up, pull the clutch in, and rev it a few times before I put it in gear. This allows some oil to get between the plates.

OP's problem came from PO assembling the clutch improperly, in combination with stuck plates, and is most likely the reason the PO sold it.

Lastly, two things: No street Kawasaki since the 70's can be shifted from neutral to any gear while sitting still other than first. The feature is called neutral finder. It just makes it very easy to get neutral when you stop.

Lastly, OP has a carb problem. After three attempts, the parts that need cleaning are still not clean. Pilot jets are the most referred to and easiest, often overlooked are the air bleeds, but usually if the pilots were checked, it is the transition ports, or passages leading to the transition ports that are plugged. Three things: Pinesol, brake cleaner, compressed air. Apply properly.

[dragono]

I think ghost assumed I was going to leave it filter less. This isn't the case a new one was ordered as soon as issue was discovered. I was simply making a note that my other bike seems to run perfectly fine with the free flow filter. Making me think it was up jetted. I haven't synced the carbs yet because as you said it wouldn't make a performance issue that big. I will however, adjust pilot needle screw, and yes a fuel filter is installed. I think fast has properly answered your question on the pressure plate issue.

[Ghostt]

@fast1075

You know I remember now, its just never been an issue for me, due to I've do clutches so many times, I can do them in my sleep, and misalignment never occurred to me, sorry my bad.


@dragono

I'm sorry if I assumed wrong, or not. Too many people post on here, and it's my lack of knowing whom I'm dealing with, I'm sure everyone can understand that.

If I offended you, I apologize it wasn't my intention.

Often it's hard to help a fellow member with whom I have no idea of their experiences with motorcycles, so a lot of diagnostic posts are blanket statements and the O.P. can then take what they need from them.

Offen times I recommend to just replace the pilot jets as this is the easiest way for some with no experience. I've seen my fair share of jets that have been damaged due to forced improper manual cleaning, after all they are cheap enough, and in my own personal experiences I've had them so badly clogged that soaking them for a few days is just a waste of time.

Once again I ment no disrespect, or malice towards you, or anyone else.

[dragono]

No worries bud advice is advice. Anyways took one more cleaning but finally got it. Used compressed air this time too. Bench synced the carbs, turned the idle mixture screw out three times from fully turned in position. And she's good, I may be running her slightly rich but that's ok with me. Thanks everyone for the help.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by dragono

No worries bud advice is advice. Anyways took one more cleaning but finally got it. Used compressed air this time too. Bench synced the carbs, turned the idle mixture screw out three times from fully turned in position. And she's good, I may be running her slightly rich but that's ok with me. Thanks everyone for the help.

Good I'm glad it's all working in the end. How did you like the bench synchronization method? I'm looking for feedback from others whom have little or no experience doing it, good or bad comments are welcome, and will help other members in the future.

Being rich on the pilot screws isn't that big of deal. Besides once your almost past 1/2 throttle, they do very little, if anything.

Remember to do the fine tuning of the pilot screws, once it's nice weather to allow it, you'll be amazing on how a little tuning makes all the difference.

Also float height is just as important as any other part of the carburetor, personally I rank it up there next to a proper cleaning, if your float height is wrong, tuning the carburetors is pointless.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_..._the_floats%3F

SIDENOTE:

Dialing in a bike is all to the owner's preferences, everyone will do theirs a little different to best suit their needs and riding style.