I got a problem! Maybe you guys can help.

[xVici]

Hey guys, I have a problem. I have a 2009 Ninja 250 and have laid it over twice because I forgot to put the kickstand down. The first time I laid it over, there were no problems. The second time I laid it over, there were no problems. However, since then (it has been around a month), something weird is happening. My bike has trouble starting up at cold start; I used the choke but it did not help at all. It’s “coughing” when I try to start it so I have to hold onto the starter button for around 3 seconds and twist the throttle and then it starts. If I turn it off then try to turn it back on again, I don’t have to hold the starter button for that long. I thought this was a battery problem so I bought a new one and replaced it. I guess this was not the case because that did not fix the problem. In addition, if I leave it running at idle rpms, the rpms jump up to 2-3k and after a minute or two it starts dropping lower and lower and the bike turns off. I don’t think it’s my idle settings. Do you guys think it’s the alternator or the spark plug? Any input would be appreciated. Thanks!

Edit: I forgot to note that the air filter is clean and there is fresh fuel.

[Ghostt]

Alternator/stator it is not.

How many miles? Maintenance schedule items done? Any modifications done? Any other symptoms? Check the fuel filter?

[Panda]

Dropping it probably jostled something loose. I recommend dropping it on the non kickstand side to correct the issue.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by xVici

My bike has trouble starting up at cold start;
I used the choke but it did not help at all.

It’s “coughing” when I try to start it so I have to hold onto the starter button for around 3 seconds and twist the throttle and then it starts.

If I turn it off then try to turn it back on again, I don’t have to hold the starter button for that long.

if I leave it running at idle rpms, the rpms jump up to 2-3k and after a minute or two it starts dropping lower and lower and the bike turns off.

i'm not sure what coughing means. but i would assume you mean you push the button and it kinda goes, but doesn't really... like a lightbulb that is barely connected, flickering on and off? if so its probably your starter button itself, or a killswitch. maybe the kickstand kill switch? try it in neutral... if it still does it, check out your starter button/killswitch. if that's all peachy keen then it could be your starter solenoid itself. if you just let go of the starter button and tap it again, or maybe a few times, it should smack the solenoid around a bit and get it to engage all the way.

it also sounds like your petcock isn't opening... if instead of idling, you try driving, does it still die? if so i would check the vacuum line going to the petcock. the fact the choke doesn't help seems to help confirm lack of fuel flow into the carbs. along with the whole spiking up to 3k then dying.

[csmith12]

Welcome Tracy!

@alex.s when I hear someone say "coughing", I think of the bike backfiring through the carbs. Normally indicative of an air problem. I agree, a close look at vac lines, airbox and snorkle is in order and easy.

From my interpretation of the issue and the OP. The downs and running issue may be unrelated to each other, since the problem didn't occur directly after the 2nd down.

[xVici]

@Ghostt It has 14k miles. No modifications were done. Maintenance was done accordingly. @alex.s and @csmith12 When I mean "coughing", I could hear the motorcycle try to start but it doesn't really kick in to stay on. I have to hold onto the starter button for a while. I did try it in neutral and it was the same. If instead of letting it idle and I drive it, the bike does not shut off. It works fine. Sometimes at stoplights however, the idle gets low to where I could hear it about to die so I put some throttle into the bike. This only happens sometimes though. Most of the time at stoplights, the bike idles around 3-4k for a couple of minutes and drops back down to 1.4k. It's really weird lol.

[alex.s]

sometimes when its cold, it takes a couple seconds of cranking to get everything flowing properly again. that's nothing to worry about i think.

what bothers me the most is you say the choke doesn't do anything when its encountering the problems... which to me says its a fuel supply issue. that bike uses vacuum operated petcock valve so its starting to sound more and more like some kind of vacuum leak or maybe a collapsed vacuum line.

typically with intake restrictions like that, it wont really be an issue at idle unless its blocking it so much that when you try to rev it at all it just dies.

[allanoue]

I what point do you turn off the choke?

[xVici]

@allanoue and @alex.s I leave the choke on for no more than 5 minutes because I'm paranoid it might flood the engine lol. I did take apart my motorcycle today and took a look at the carburetors (it was hell to take it apart). They looked clean - at least I thought it did. I put everything back and started the engine again. There was that same problem. It would not start unless I held the throttle down AND put the choke on. If i did one but not the other, it would not work. It ran for a good 5-10 minutes revving around 1.4-2k then slowly went down and died. I'm not sure what the problem is. =\

[alex.s]

it's pretty typical to need the choke to start if its not warm out.

the normal rule is to use the choke only when you need to. once it will idle and take some throttle input, turn the choke off. but its actually a fuel enricher not a choke so it shouldn't really do much damage if any leaving it on longer than you need to.

i still think it sounds like the petcock isn't being opened well enough. you could try something like seafoam. it might help. if you have something like starting fluid, you can spritz some near the carbs and if there is a vacuum leak, it should pull in the starting fluid making the RPMs jump up for a second. if they do you know you have a leak. if they dont maybe its just a gummed up petcock? or it could be a collapsed vacuum line. take a look at the rubber hoses... do they look like dry rot rubber? how hard or soft are they? if you can, try running the bike with the tank moved off so you can see all the hoses while it runs... maybe you'll see one collapses under vacuum?


it could just be a tank pressure thing.... after it dies, try opening the gas filler and see if you notice it suck air in... if it does maybe your tank vent isn't working correctly? afte ryou open it, wait a couple seconds and try starting it... does it get better?

[allanoue]

nice little thread about the choke and a good link to more info
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=70800

[xVici]

@allanoue Thanks for the link! I feel better leaving the choke on now lol. @alex.s I guess I'll buy seafoam tomorrow and try it. I watched a video on using the seafoam and saw that its poured into the gas tank and the vacuum line. Should I pour it into the vacuum line too? Also, I'll put a video out tomorrow to try better explain the problem lol.

[alex.s]

but really... dont leave the choke on for a long time. once the bike starts to warm up the choke will cause it to run like crap

[xVici]

Here is the video. I just bought Seafoam so I'm going to try that tonight. I'll post an update and see if that fixes it.

https://youtu.be/xUo20PXln14

[allanoue]

Link to original page on YouTube.

[alex.s]

clogged pilot jet.

[alex.s]

seafoam will probably help a bit. but a good carb clean should clear everything up nicely

[xVici]

I'll put some Seafoam into the gas tank today. I really don't want to take out the carbs again; it was a pain the other day lol. When I did take it out, it looked clean; the two big valves / openings were clear. But then again, maybe I didn't look at it right because I'm a beginner to fixing the bike up myself. Do I need to dip the whole carb unit into something or do I need to unscrew this and clean it?

[Ghostt]

Seafoam, or any other fuel additive is more for prevention, and maintenance.

You need to completely disassemble the carburetors in order to use Chem-Dip, as your need to this I would advise you NOT TO SPLIT THE CARBURETORS!!!



How hard of a drop was it? Was it a quick, fast and hard(like me prom date) fall? Or one of those slow motion soft falls? It could be you stirred up some sediment in the fuel bowls? knocked the fuel floats out of adjustment?

With that said, you've got nothing to lose, but personally I would clean those carburetors, and be 100% sure.

Don't forget to also check the fuel filter(49019)in the fuel inlet elbow.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by xVici

I'll put some Seafoam into the gas tank today. I really don't want to take out the carbs again; it was a pain the other day lol. When I did take it out, it looked clean; the two big valves / openings were clear. But then again, maybe I didn't look at it right because I'm a beginner to fixing the bike up myself. Do I need to dip the whole carb unit into something or do I need to unscrew this and clean it?

they might look okay but if you dont poke them out and spray them with cleaner, theres probably still gummed up crap on the wall of the jet making the fuel flow less.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by alex.s

they might look okay but if you dont poke them out and spray them with cleaner, theres probably still gummed up crap on the wall of the jet making the fuel flow less.

Also the circuits as well, the jets need to be removed, and cleaned for sure.


Below you can see just how small the pilot jet holes are

[xVici]

@Ghostt The drop was a stand still slow motion fall. I guess I'll take the carburetors out again if the seafoam doesn't work.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by xVici

@Ghostt The drop was a stand still slow motion fall. I guess I'll take the carburetors out again if the seafoam doesn't work.

Sounds good, but remember to check that fuel filter

[fishdip]

It sounds like you have a plugged jet and a air leak. When you drop it it stirs up all the crud in the tank leading to it getting clogged. The next thing is one of the car boots it's probly lose air box side or carb side.

[xVici]

I poured some Seafoam today and that did not work. I guess my only option now is to take out the carburetor and clean the jet plug. I found this video on Youtube. Do I need to dip the whole carburetor inside some kind of solution or can I use a toothbrush like he did?

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by xVici

I poured some Seafoam today and that did not work. I guess my only option now is to clean the jet plug. That means I have to take out the carburetor again right?

Yes sir, and when you do... clean all 4. Yea, I said 4. Your issues is in the pilot jets or enricher inlets. So aside of taking out the mains and giving them a good cleaning, your gunna need to take the pilots out and clean them just the same. To clean the enricher inlets, spray some carb cleaner in there and use compressed air to blow through it.



Also, to do once and do it right. Do a search of this forum for a thread called "Hidden Passages". Cleaning a carb is much more than just popping out the jets and ensuring they're clear. Sure, that might get it running better but since you got it out, you might as well clean it all to prevent future problems. Just be careful not to hit the float tangs and mess up the adjustment.

[xVici]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Yes sir, and when you do... clean all 4. Yea, I said 4. Your issues is in the pilot jets or enricher inlets. So aside of taking out the mains and giving them a good cleaning, your gunna need to take the pilots out and clean them just the same. To clean the enricher inlets, spray some carb cleaner in there and use compressed air to blow through it.



Also, to do once and do it right. Do a search of this forum for a thread called "Hidden Passages". Cleaning a carb is much more than just popping out the jets and ensuring they're clear. Sure, that might get it running better but since you got it out, you might as well clean it all to prevent future problems. Just be careful not to hit the float tangs and mess up the adjustment.

Thanks! I believe I found that thread here: https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=147048

For the cleaning solutions, should I dip it into Pinesol or should I get the B12 Chemtool?

[xVici]

Just an update. I got the carburetor out again today. It was a lot quicker and easier than the first time lol. I took it apart and looked at the pilot jets and the main jets. They looked clear. The inside of the carburetor looked clear also. Since I had it out, I sprayed some B12 onto it and am about to soak the carburetor into a 2:1 Pinesol - Water. Here's some pictures. Do you think cleaning this will fix the problem?

http://i.imgur.com/zua5FLj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7joinZg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xdmzwXo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3KaqrQ9.jpg

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by xVici

Just an update. I got the carburetor out again today. It was a lot quicker and easier than the first time lol. I took it apart and looked at the pilot jets and the main jets. They looked clear. The inside of the carburetor looked clear also. Since I had it out, I sprayed some B12 onto it and am about to soak the carburetor into a 2:1 Pinesol - Water. Here's some pictures. Do you think cleaning this will fix the problem?

http://i.imgur.com/zua5FLj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7joinZg.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xdmzwXo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3KaqrQ9.jpg

So you can see inside all the little passages? Your eyes are able to see items that are only a few microns big? if yes to all this then no need to clean.

[xVici]

Originally Posted by fishdip

So you can see inside all the little passages? Your eyes are able to see items that are only a few microns big? if yes to all this then no need to clean.

Yup! Even the main jets!

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by xVici

Yup! Even the main jets!

Its not just the main jets. The have little passages in side the carbs that in less you have ex-ray vision you will not be able to see in side them

[alex.s]

donno what fish is talking about but you need to actually remove the jets to clean them.

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by alex.s

donno what fish is talking about but you need to actually remove the jets to clean them.

This....





The first thing you should do is look through those pilot jets that you removed. Make sure you can see that the very small hole isn't plugged up. Spray it out with carb cleaner, then pull a single strand of COPPER wire from a piece of 14-18 gauge that you probably have laying around someplace, feed it through the pilot jet hole, and roll the jet around the wire.

Don't go overboard; you just want to remove the deposits from the brass, not remove the brass from the jet. Letting the jets soak in a powerful fuel system cleaner, like Chevron, will help if they are really bad. The worse the deposits, the longer they need to soak.

Now, take the straw from the can of carb cleaner, press it into the port on the carb for the pilot circuit, and spray carb cleaner into the circuit. Carb cleaner should spray out of the port in the float bowl that you removed the pilot jet from.

When you have a good steady stream of carb cleaner coming out of there, press your finger against the pilot jet port and spray carb cleaner again into the circuit. This time you should have carb cleaner spraying out of the mixture screw port, where you removed the mixture screw, the spring, the o-ring and the washer from.

Once you have cleaner coming out of the mixture screw, install the mixture screw and parts back into the port and screw it all the way in until it just seats (don't crank it down). Now back it out 2 1/2 turns, make sure your finger is still covering the pilot jet port, and spray again. This time you should see cleaner coming out of the mixture screw port on the engine side of the carb at a tiny little hole.
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cleaning_the_carbs_2

[csmith12]

Originally Posted by alex.s

donno what fish is talking about but you need to actually remove the jets to clean them.

Somebody didn't look at the pics.

Did you take the pilot jets out too? Your pic only shows the mains.

[xVici]

@fishdip hmm. I'll take a look at it after I soak the carb in PineSol for a couple of hours. @alex.s You're talking about the main jets right? I took it out and cleaned it with B12. It was a really really tiny hole!

[xVici]

I followed the video and covered my finger on one side and inserted the straw from the carb cleaner on the other side. The fluid did go through the tiny holes

[fishdip]

Originally Posted by xVici

@fishdip hmm. I'll take a look at it after I soak the carb in PineSol for a couple of hours. @alex.s You're talking about the main jets right? I took it out and cleaned it with B12. It was a really really tiny hole!

You should have pulled out 2 different jets.

[fishdip]

on each carb

[xVici]

Here's the image of the main jets!

http://i.imgur.com/Au8qgeh.jpg

[xVici]

Quick update! I just got my carb out of the PineSol bucket. I did find a little piece and I'm not sure where it goes... Maybe you guys can help me out lol. Here are the pictures.

http://i.imgur.com/yZfnZqO.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/YHAMgIZ.jpg