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Old December 2nd, 2019, 10:07 PM   #1
Yakaru
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MOTM - Jun '16
Opposed Technique Instruction

So, as a long time CSS student (Hi @Misti ) one of the lessons that they cover is about how staying relaxed helps in a lot of ways, including helping the bike navigate any surface issues and preventing unintended inputs. As part of this they advise when you brake to use your thighs; squeezing the tank in order to absorb the force and prevent yourself from sliding forward.

Ken Hill and, to a potentially lesser extent, YCRS advocate that when you brake you want to carry all of the weight in your arms.

Two examples:
https://youtu.be/mbrTZbjNUec?t=270
https://youtu.be/76J0I2nzcFw?t=112

I've been in some classes with Ken where he refers to squeezing the tank as a poor technique, that while you want to use the outside leg in the corner you want to weight the hands as much as possible for braking (at least until tip in).

The second one is his instruction to steer by weighting the peg, which frankly comes off as completely ridiculous to me.

https://youtu.be/pUQt4o-HRlc?t=528
https://youtu.be/ynaS28BeH3k?t=71

I realize Ken is a fast rider who trains some amazing racers; but I still can't make sense of a lot of his instruction. Though I'll admit I've had more than a few major disagreements with him in particular so it may just be our personalities clashing.

Anyone have any thoughts?
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Old December 3rd, 2019, 12:14 PM   #2
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I've followed all of Ken's podcasts over years and attended several of his instructional clinics. I think there's some cause-and-effects confusion similar to Pridmore's class in regards to weighting pegs. While they may think that cause of turning is weighting pegs, I suspect what's actually happening is that's just bracing action for rider's body and actual cause of turning is still counter-steering.

Code has already proven with numerous experiments using instrumented data-collection that weighting pegs and using body-english can somewhat turn bike, but it's much too small of effect to be useful. Primary and majority of turn-initiation is still counter-steering and nothing can dispute physics. I've tried weighting-pegs and using body-weight to force bike to lean and it stubbornly continues in straight line with barely noticeable change in direction.

Experiment with bicycles and guide by holding seat. Just leaning bike will cause countre-steering of fork due to trail. It's counter-steering that initiates turning and leaning into corner, not leaning itself. I've had bikes of all sorts come into shop with rusted-in-place headsets that prevented fork from turning. Common complaint from all owners was bike didn't want to turn. Without being able to countre-steer front-end, neither bicycle or motorbike will want to initiate turn and leaning.

Quote:
I've been in some classes with Ken where he refers to squeezing the tank as a poor technique, that while you want to use the outside leg in the corner you want to weight the hands as much as possible for braking (at least until tip in).
Bah, weight-on-hands may work initially, but as you build braking-force to maximum, that much weight on hands makes it difficult to have finesse with steering-inputs for tip-in. Brake-modulation and clutch-use for downshifting is difficult with all that weight on hands.

I've found that preparing body for turning while braking really helps deal with deceleration forces and keeping them off hands. Placing my outside-thigh against back of tank lets braking-forces actually help me get body to inside and head down by inside bar. Note that I do this after I initiate braking. Sliding body off to inside before braking may throw you off bike completely when you apply brakes!!!
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Old December 3rd, 2019, 12:28 PM   #3
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MOTM - Jun '16
I think we're in complete agreement. When I said roughly the same thing to Ken he pulled this "I'm sorry, have you trained XXX championship winners?" and... well, I no longer attend his lectures at the local org he co-owns.
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Old December 3rd, 2019, 03:09 PM   #4
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Old December 3rd, 2019, 08:58 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
I've tried weighting-pegs and using body-weight to force bike to lean and it stubbornly continues in straight line with barely noticeable change in direction.
The person from YCRS who critiqued my review mentioned he had a video of navigating a canyon with his hands off the bars. First I'm curious how he kept speed (cruise control?) and what his pace was. I asked to see the video -- regardless of those factors it'd still be interesting IMO; I'd also love to see him on the NoBS bike.

Quote:
Weighting the inside pegs (Body Steering) is another way to initiate lean which also initiates a turn but it is not counter-steering. Because body steering keeps pressure/weight off the arms when done right, it allows us to fine tune our turns better which is why most Champions put more focus on body steering (in combination with the brakes) as it is more of a scalpel. Make sense? I have a video somewhere of me going down a super-twisty road with no hands to disprove that counter-steering is the only way to steer a motorcycle.
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Old December 4th, 2019, 12:06 AM   #6
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Over the years I was giving some thoughts to how two wheeled objects turn and here is my view

The turn is accomplished by the same way as it is accomplished by other (more wheeled objects) and that's by ... you guessed it right .. by turning the steering wheel. Where the difference is in how you keep maintaining the balance while proceeding through the turn.

As the mass of the object sits above the point of contacts with the ground the inertia will try to keep the object on it's original path thus tipping the object over. Counting that force created by the linear velocity to maintain the direction of the turn can be accomplished by different means. On cars and motocycles with a side car turning left it is done by the wheel(s) running on the outside tracks. On motocycles with a side car turning right it is accomplished by the weight of the side car. On two wheeled objects like motocycles or bicycles one can only do it by shifting the weight of the motocycle and/or the rider.

Now contrary to the popular belief the vehicle does not have to be leaned into the direction of the turn. It can lean in the opposite direction as well, as long as you maintain the forces in equilibrium so the vehicle stays balanced. I proved this with both a sidecar motocycle and a bicycle. You can raise the sidecar which leans the motocycle to the left while still turning right.

On a bicycle its easy to do because they are light and the rider mass affects the stability of the system more than that of the bicycle.

Now is the tricky part with two wheeled vehicles. They have a trail which will try to keep them going straight by maintaining the balance "automaticaly" . This is the feature of the suspension geometry that essentially makes them usable. And the faster they go the more force the trail will generate and more difficult it is to upset that balance.

To make the vehicle turning one can do it multiple ways.
1. Shifting the weight to the direction of the turn. This will make the bike leaning and the steering wheel turning in the direction of the turn. From here few things can happen - the trail will try to stabilize the bike by steering the vehicle in a way so the points of contact move under the center of mass. If the weight application point is located high i.e. saddle the bike will be more successful with that as the rider will require more force to stop the bike rotation that will be happening around the axis going in the direction of travel. If the weight is applied lower - foot pegs the rider will be more successful in preventing the trail to stabilize the bike as it will have more leverage not allowing the bike to stabilize.
2. From that point if the rider finds the equilibrium the bike will be making a turn of a constant radius.
3. If the rider "over-applies" the force and keeps applying the force (the rider "wins') the bike will just tip over and collapse.
4. If the rider "over-applies" the force but the bike works faster and overcompensates (the points of contact will move on the other side) with the trail this will now move the weight of the rider onto the opposite side and the bike will now start turning in the opposite direction. This process oftentimes is called counter-steering with weight. I have done is very often on a bicycle when not holding the bars and it does work. From now we go to point number 1. and the process repeats. If they find the equilibrium we end up with #2. I Think #3 is unlikely to happen here. #4 might happen and if this process repeats we will get a so called wobble.
The weight steering is the more effective the higher the ratio of rider to vehicle weight. With bicycles that ratio can be as high as 10:1 but with heavy motocycles it could be in a range of 1:5. That's why it is not very effective on motocyles.

5. Now instead of shifting the center of mass relative to the contact patches we can shift the contact patches relative to center of mass. This can be done by counter steering with handlebars and pretty much we end up with #4 where the bike "won" but not by trailing due to lean but by trailing due to handle bars being turned by the rider.

#5 works really well with heavy bikes and riders as it is way easier to shift the point of contacts below the center of mass than move the center of mass above the point of contact.


I hope that helps... I might be mistaken with my conclusions but so far my observations have been confirmed on various types of vehicles.
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Old December 4th, 2019, 12:52 PM   #7
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Sib: I have thoughts but it'll take some time to compile. Thanks for your input though.
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Old December 4th, 2019, 01:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakaru View Post
Sib: I have thoughts but it'll take some time to compile. Thanks for your input though.
No worries. Take your time.
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Old July 29th, 2020, 08:17 PM   #9
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I've been watching the last couple of rounds of MotoGP and braking for T1 Quartararo doesn't pop his leg out but Rossi and a lot of the other riders do.

Then I remembered Quartararo had arm pump surgery.
https://www-autosport-com.cdn.amppro...m-issues%2Famp

Quoting the article
Rossi suggested greater braking forces are a major contributing factor.

"It's curious. For me there must be a technical answer to this problem," he said.

"The pressure that you have on your arms during the braking has increased.

//quote off

I've taken one track day where they hired Ken and I found it more my style than CSS. Now that Dave Moss guy, he's like the Riddler????
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Old August 4th, 2020, 08:57 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by algs26 View Post
I've been watching the last couple of rounds of MotoGP and braking for T1 Quartararo doesn't pop his leg out but Rossi and a lot of the other riders do.

Then I remembered Quartararo had arm pump surgery.
https://www-autosport-com.cdn.amppro...m-issues%2Famp

Quoting the article
Rossi suggested greater braking forces are a major contributing factor.

"It's curious. For me there must be a technical answer to this problem," he said.

"The pressure that you have on your arms during the braking has increased.

//quote off

I've taken one track day where they hired Ken and I found it more my style than CSS. Now that Dave Moss guy, he's like the Riddler????
i was just going to bring up these same examples, i know for me a lot of weight goes on my arms while squeezing my thighs. now this is only on super tight turns like turn 10 at thil, you are plus 90 coming into a slow corner= lots of weight on my arms, but turn 1 a long 90 deg sweeper most is asorbed by my thigh squeeze. most of our weight is above the seat, brake hard with no weight on your arms means you could have broke harder if you also used your arms. just my opinion.
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Old August 4th, 2020, 10:20 PM   #11
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"This is all technical force that goes to your arm and in the last year a lot of people have had this problem. I think it's because of this. But for me, fortunately, I don't have a problem." - Rossi

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Old August 5th, 2020, 06:17 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
"This is all technical force that goes to your arm and in the last year a lot of people have had this problem. I think it's because of this. But for me, fortunately, I don't have a problem." - Rossi

he also said the pressure on the bars has increased, bridgestone is a good front tire, bigger brakes and seamles braking help alot to stop a bike
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Old August 6th, 2020, 02:50 PM   #13
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MOTM - Jun '16
Recently spoke to some high level riders (MotoAmerica, Moto3) and most of them say that what advantages the dangle does have are limited -- one comment I saw was "it really only matters if you're on lap record pace" and spoke about how it could help control some of the slide/chatter/etc at tip in by providing a counter balance until traction re-stabilized.
There's also the fact that one of the biggest wins of tank pinching (not sliding around as much) is mitigated by things like custom tanks and such which reduce that. e.g. https://www.instagram.com/p/CB6lCkiHXRd/
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Old August 6th, 2020, 04:25 PM   #14
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You can sit forward up on the tank go verrry fast too. It’s more of a preference thing. It what I personally like to do. You can also keep fairly light on the bars under braking doing this too.
https://youtu.be/l04TUNLO3Pg
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Old August 6th, 2020, 07:58 PM   #15
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I've tried the 'up on the tank' technique and I'm not a fan. It really pushes you to cross up the upper body and put more weight in the arms during corners since you have less contact with less leverage on the tank. Getting up on top of it for acceleration and some other circumstances might be okay, but it's a trade off between moving too much and the weight distribution. Plus a lot of the factors he speaks to are largely if not entirely compensated for by suspension tuning.

I'm also not sure if he's comparing it to the technique I've seen demonstrated and taught, which is only ~2.5 inches back on the longer side, vs sliding all the way to the back of the seat.
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Old August 6th, 2020, 08:42 PM   #16
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He is comparing It to what you’ve been taught. What he teaches is that both ways are fine but he prefers being close to the tank and it works fine. It comes down to what works for you. I like a lot of contact between my outside thigh and tank. I even put about 1” Thick pad on the back of my tank so there more contact between my thigh and the tank. That’s where most of my support comes from. I’m the opposite of you. This technique lets me get off the bike more and feel so locked in that I can drop my inside shoulder and get very low.
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Old August 7th, 2020, 12:17 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kowalski View Post
He is comparing It to what youíve been taught. What he teaches is that both ways are fine but he prefers being close to the tank and it works fine. It comes down to what works for you. I like a lot of contact between my outside thigh and tank. I even put about 1Ē Thick pad on the back of my tank so there more contact between my thigh and the tank. Thatís where most of my support comes from. Iím the opposite of you. This technique lets me get off the bike more and feel so locked in that I can drop my inside shoulder and get very low.
The entire reasoning for selecting the amount off the tank is maximum contact, so if that's where you get the most then that's the same technique. There are a few bikes where that's true for me, but not many.
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Old August 7th, 2020, 04:41 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kowalski View Post
You can sit forward up on the tank go verrry fast too. Itís more of a preference thing. It what I personally like to do. You can also keep fairly light on the bars under braking doing this too.
https://youtu.be/l04TUNLO3Pg
im with you on this, simons still a badass on a bike.
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