Advice vs instruction?

[Misti]

Advice vs instruction. What is the difference between receiving advice about good riding technique and receiving instruction on good riding technique?

Misti

[Lychee]

the source

[Joshorilla]

Semantics.

[antiant]

Advice = Telling you how.
Instruction = Telling you to.

[alex.s]

advice = someone isn't sure why it is correct, but it works well for them.

instruction = someone who knows the reason why it is correct. and what happens when you do things correctly, as well as what happens when you do it incorrectly. the person carefully explains the reasoning, not just the result.

[allanoue]

Advice = Friendly
Instruction = Authoritative

The delta is power

[DaBlue1]

Advice is often an opinion or stated facts which often entails some small bits of incorrect or misinformation and a lot of could of, should of, would ofs.

Instruction is actual data, information, knowledge, skills and ability most often put into practical application to perfect that particular subject/ skill/ technique.

[Nemesis]

Advice = Moobs
Instructions = Boobs

[Nemesis]

Advice = Moobs
Instructions = Boobs

[Joshorilla]

Originally Posted by alex.s

advice = someone isn't sure why it is correct, but it works well for them.

instruction = someone who knows the reason why it is correct. and what happens when you do things correctly, as well as what happens when you do it incorrectly. the person carefully explains the reasoning, not just the result.

I don't really agree with that, you can have a perfectly knowledgeable person give sound advise, and you can get instruction from a complete idiot, I wouldn't given credence to instruction because it inherently is categorised as such.

To brake down the words into how I interpret them.

Instruction is a command "or set there of" given to you of which you are expected to execute.

Advise is an optional instruction set given to you with the intention of bettering your technique.

So the difference to me, would be instruction is expected and typically formal, and advise is optional and typically informal.

[lgk]

Instruction is proven advice from a professional,
usually more detailed, technical, and precise than advice from a regular person.

proven meaning the instructor's success is documented, and is a subject matter expert.

[csmith12]

Interesting question. It's a blurry line depending on who and the "format". I will have to think about this some.

[allanoue]

Advice = alex.s saying "do not listen to music when you ride" in this forum

Instruction = a cop saying "do not listen to music when you ride" as he writes you up.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by allanoue

Advice = alex.s saying "do not listen to music when you ride" in this forum

Instruction = a cop saying "do not listen to music when you ride" as he writes you up.

[Nemesis]

Sounds like "instructions" is defined by someone's social or achieved status.

So, when can sound "advice" become "instruction" regardless of one's social/achieved status?

[alex.s]

if you are talking about the definition of the english word, yes. advice is a suggestion. instruction is a command.

but its misti, i don't think she is looking for a dictionary.


advice is a suggestion someone makes in passing.

you seek out instruction. motorcycle instruction is something typically sought out and specifically requested. as such, the student is more inclined to follow instruction exactly, as they have actually requested that information.

giving advice to people can sometimes be taken the wrong way. some people don't want advice. "who are you to give advice? are you an instructor at the code school?!" (example)

[Lyfbjorn]

The way we normally use these in a since of applying it to something: Advice is telling you something you "should" do. Instruction is showing you or telling you what to do. I could give you advice on how to build a house and you go and do it or i can show you how to build a house and tell you this is how you do it.

[CC Cowboy]

Advice, you could do this, and you might listen and learn.

Instruction, follow me, do what I do, if you don't learn you won't learn.

[mgentz]

Maybe I read this wrong but I would look at advice as someone telling you how and instruction as someone showing you how AND having you practice.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Misti

What is the difference between receiving advice about good riding technique and receiving instruction on good riding technique?

Very interesting question.

"Wise men don't need advice. Fools won't take it." - Benjamin Franklin

Advice about good riding is free, is a one time thing, there is no follow up or test or grades or method or final test performed by the adviser over the advised.

"The mediocre teacher tells. The good teacher explains. The superior teacher demonstrates. The great teacher inspires." - William Arthur Ward

Instruction about good riding is not free, is a process, there are dedicated and sustained couching, tests, grades, methods and final test performed by the teacher over the student.

Both, advice and instruction can be good or bad according to the provider, as well as correctly or incorrectly understood and applied by the beneficiary.

[csmith12]

Ok, as a teacher of adults, I have come to this;

Instruction is about the relationship between the "person with experience" and the "person without experience". A teacher will set up an environment with goals for successful learning at the pace of the learner. A teacher will be there along the way for encouragement and steering with evaluation being a done over time to show progress.

An even better teacher will customize the material to the student and include them in the "aha!" moment by asking questions of the student to encourage free thinking.

Advice is also based in experience but is "casual" and it's up to the learner to "run with it" without good follow-through.

In the end, it really doesn't matter about stature, degree or even location. And most of the time, people do not want to invest the time to "instruct" someone without some form of compensation. So the "format" that is set up by paying for instruction establishes the "relationship" of student and teacher. But more importantly, it strongly encourages the payee to put in the time and effort to practice.

Again! Great question Misti and I hope every rider finds something or someone who truly helps them along the path of riding.

Who can you think of in your life that you can go to for trusted answers to questions? If you have no one where could you find that person(s)?

[Misti]

Originally Posted by csmith12

Ok, as a teacher of adults, I have come to this;

Instruction is about the relationship between the "person with experience" and the "person without experience". A teacher will set up an environment with goals for successful learning at the pace of the learner. A teacher will be there along the way for encouragement and steering with evaluation being a done over time to show progress.

An even better teacher will customize the material to the student and include them in the "aha!" moment by asking questions of the student to encourage free thinking.

Advice is also based in experience but is "casual" and it's up to the learner to "run with it" without good follow-through.

In the end, it really doesn't matter about stature, degree or even location. And most of the time, people do not want to invest the time to "instruct" someone without some form of compensation. So the "format" that is set up by paying for instruction establishes the "relationship" of student and teacher. But more importantly, it strongly encourages the payee to put in the time and effort to practice.

Again! Great question Misti and I hope every rider finds something or someone who truly helps them along the path of riding.

Who can you think of in your life that you can go to for trusted answers to questions? If you have no one where could you find that person(s)?

Wow, what a great discussion
What I'm getting from this is that most people see advice as something more casually given without any follow through or steps taken to elaborate on the "how, or why" of said advice. Instruction seems to include methods such as teaching, demonstrating, and asking questions in order to help the student understand in a greater detail the reasons why something should be done and how to actually go about doing it. Does that sound about right?

As for the question above, I'd say that I have several people in my life that I can go to for trusted answers to my questions. A few dear friends of mine come to mind but in regards to motorcycle riding and technique specific questions I'm lucky enough to have had Keith Code as a mentor and to have his cell phone number if I ever need a quick answer to a question It certainly came in handy when I was racing! My hubby (a talented rider/racer himself is also a go to person) as well as other CSS riding coaches and fellow racers.

What about some best and worst examples of experiences around receiving riding advice and instruction. What worked for you guys, what didn't?

[csmith12]

My worst bit of advice was given to me one Sunday ride about 3yrs ago. He said, just weight the pegs and follow me. He left me behind in 5 or 6 corners on a road I didn't know.

Best was a few coaches at a track day. They followed me for many laps, came to my pit worked with me, I then followed them for many laps. They then came back to my pits to encourage me on what I was doing fine on vs still needed more attention. They did this "just because". I was not part of a school or classroom program. I was just there for a track day in the I group.

I have also talked to 30+ coaches and control riders. One stands out more than all the others combined. I wish I knew his name but everyone calls him JP. He is an older gentleman and knows how to talk to me. What he says and how he says it just clicks in my mind. His "advice" to me, borderlines instruction as it is with many control riders at many tracks, it's enough to learn but not enough to call it a student/teacher relationship.

Alternatively, I have heard some of the worst advice from racers. I can only assume their intentions are good but they must figure everyone fits into a cookie cutter mold or what they say is so vague it's not very helpful.

[Motofool]

"On motorcycle riding, “good” advice gets passed around like a bottle of Mad Dog in a homeless camp. Like the “wine,” most of it goes to the head and clouds the issue it’s actually supposed to clarify." - Keith Code

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe...#ixzz2KsvedtjU

I have been lucky enough not to receive bad advice from any rider in many years; maybe that depends on who you ask or who you hang out with.

Maybe the track day and racing environment is more prone to generate unsolicited advice and discussion.

Since their margin for error is much narrower, experienced street riders that are still alive tend to discard BS and embrace techniques that really work.

[bradvanhorn]

While perhaps this story is not the worst example of instruction, it illustrates what I think separates the good from the bad. I was offered a certain school for no cost and I of course attended - always jump at the chance to get to the track and especially when it's free. The school instructor was explaining a specific technique they wanted us to use. Their technique was a bit different than some of us had previously been instructed. When we asked why their techique was superior to other techniques, the answer was not factual or objective. Instead we got a very condescending, "who you going to believe, those other guys, or our guy." The "guy" the instructor was of course referring to was the guy whose name appeared on the school we were attending but who otherwise was not in the classroom. It's an extremely poor substitute for a real answer - this answer came more than once during the day also. When it comes to "instruction", I'm usually pretty willing to listen but if you can't do better than just thumping your chest then I'm turning you off.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by Motofool

"On motorcycle riding, “good” advice gets passed around like a bottle of Mad Dog in a homeless camp. Like the “wine,” most of it goes to the head and clouds the issue it’s actually supposed to clarify." - Keith Code

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/fe...#ixzz2KsvedtjU

I have been lucky enough not to receive bad advice from any rider in many years; maybe that depends on who you ask or who you hang out with.

Maybe the track day and racing environment is more prone to generate unsolicited advice and discussion.

Since their margin for error is much narrower, experienced street riders that are still alive tend to discard BS and embrace techniques that really work.

Love that quote from Keith, I had not seen it before!

I think that advice is given with good intentions but without explaining to someone how and why the suggestion is good or without clarifying how the rider can go about implementing the technique it is kind of useless.

I remember racing AMA at Barber and I was struggling to make the qualifying time. My husband said to me, "you just need to go faster into turn 1." I was like, "no sh*t I need to go faster in turn 1 but HOW???" Lucky for me there was another CSS coach there who observed me in turn 1. He asked me a few questions about what reference points I was using and what my vision was like on the approach to turn 1 and soon I was making some specific adjustments to my visual skills and was able to carry more speed into and throughout the turn.

Misti

[bradvanhorn]

Originally Posted by csmith12

...Best was a few coaches at a track day. They followed me for many laps, came to my pit worked with me, I then followed them for many laps. They then came back to my pits to encourage me on what I was doing fine on vs still needed more attention. They did this "just because". I was not part of a school or classroom program. I was just there for a track day in the I group.

In my previous post I avoided identifying a certain school... that school was pretty condescending toward track day control riders. However, I've observed many of the control riders are extremely competent (as you would expect) and are very good at working with track day riders. They might not make you the next AMA superbike champ but they can help you refine your track day riding. It also makes a great impression on me that they are doing this because they enjoy it, it is their passion, and that makes a big difference.

Originally Posted by csmith12

...I have heard some of the worst advice from racers. I can only assume their intentions are good but they must figure everyone fits into a cookie cutter mold or what they say is so vague it's not very helpful.

My recent experience on this point is quite similar. Obviously there are racers who can ride the wheels off their bike, but I don't think they always understand how to communicate (i.e. instruct). At a recent track day weekend we had some very competent racers on the control rider staff - including a former AMA champ. They did a few seminars between track sessions. Unfortunately, a lot of what they were saying during the seminars made little sense. It sounded ok when they said it but you couldn't really get the idea of what to do with it on the track. They often used racer slang that doesn't mean anything to non racers which added to the confusion. My one attempt to get something clarified left me nearly as baffled as before I asked. On at least one occasion I noted what they were saying in the brief didn't match what they actually were doing on the track. In the end I found their seminars not worth my time (my friends agreed).

I will also add I've had the benefit of a fairly close relationship with California Superbike School the past three years, both as a regular student and as a CSS trained military rider coach (CSS provides or assists the Marine Corps with two rider training programs). I've had some really fantastic instruction, coaching and mentoring through CSS the last few years so for me the not-so fantastic variety stands out even more.

[dfox]

in what context is the question being asked?

legal? or just common use of the terms?

legally... an instructor inherently takes on a bit more legal risk than someone providing advice.

common use... advice is typically casual information passed based on someone's experience, you do with it what you will. "I do wheelies by revving the crap out of my 250 and dropping the clutch". Instruction is directing someone to do something, like a teacher at an MSF course, or even just a friend in a parking lot saying "now take it to 8K RPM's and drop the clutch" while you're sitting on a running bike. Instruction implies that you are giving step by step descriptions on how to do something, whether it's online or in person.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by bradvanhorn

In my previous post I avoided identifying a certain school... that school was pretty condescending toward track day control riders. However, I've observed many of the control riders are extremely competent (as you would expect) and are very good at working with track day riders. They might not make you the next AMA superbike champ but they can help you refine your track day riding. It also makes a great impression on me that they are doing this because they enjoy it, it is their passion, and that makes a big difference.


My recent experience on this point is quite similar. Obviously there are racers who can ride the wheels off their bike, but I don't think they always understand how to communicate (i.e. instruct). At a recent track day weekend we had some very competent racers on the control rider staff - including a former AMA champ. They did a few seminars between track sessions. Unfortunately, a lot of what they were saying during the seminars made little sense. It sounded ok when they said it but you couldn't really get the idea of what to do with it on the track. They often used racer slang that doesn't mean anything to non racers which added to the confusion. My one attempt to get something clarified left me nearly as baffled as before I asked. On at least one occasion I noted what they were saying in the brief didn't match what they actually were doing on the track. In the end I found their seminars not worth my time (my friends agreed).

I will also add I've had the benefit of a fairly close relationship with California Superbike School the past three years, both as a regular student and as a CSS trained military rider coach (CSS provides or assists the Marine Corps with two rider training programs). I've had some really fantastic instruction, coaching and mentoring through CSS the last few years so for me the not-so fantastic variety stands out even more.

Interesting points about racers giving advice and/or instructors. I think that the intent is always good but as you say the way of explaining it might not be the easiest to understand. I think the sign of a good riding coach/instructor is how well they can relay the information to riders with varying degrees of ability and understanding.

At CSS we go through a LOT of training in order to be able to convey the riding tech in a way that empowers the student to learn at their own pace and according to their own needs.

It's one thing to tell someone that they need to turn later or apex tighter or turn quicker and an entirely different thing to be able to explain why and how in a way that everyone will understand. That's why I love coaching so much, it's a challenge to take the info and present it in a beneficial way

Here's a question, does a riding coach/instructor have to be faster than his or her student in order to be able to help them go faster?

Misti

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Misti

I

Here's a question, does a riding coach/instructor have to be faster than his or her student in order to be able to help them go faster?

Misti

No, you just need to be able to recognize what the student is doing correct and what the student is doing wrong. Then you need to be able to explain, show, or beat into the student the proper solution for their mistakes. Thus, making them a safer, better, faster, more knowledgable rider.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by Misti

Here's a question, does a riding coach/instructor have to be faster than his or her student in order to be able to help them go faster?

Misti

Baseball exzample
Jim Thome hit 612 MLB Home Runs. He credits Charlie Manual for teaching him how. Chuck hit 4 MLB home runs

[BlueHairSar]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

No, you just need to be able to recognize what the student is doing correct and what the student is doing wrong. Then you need to be able to explain, show, or beat into the student the proper solution for their mistakes. Thus, making them a safer, better, faster, more knowledgeable rider.

and also FTFY

[ally99]

Advice usually involves the other party telling you something or another.

Instruction usually involves you practicing technique yourself.

I'm a teacher. When I give advice to a child, it's always verbal. When I give instruction, it's followed up with something to help solidify the skill. Plus I agree with alex s. Instruction (making the assumption of having a knowledgeable instructor) is explaining the reasoning, not just giving the result.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Misti

..........Here's a question, does a riding coach/instructor have to be faster than his or her student in order to be able to help them go faster?

Misti

The riding coach/instructor should know and teach techniques that the student is there to learn from him or her.

If everything works out as it should (the instructor teaches and demonstrates and the student learns and execute), the student will improve his or her confidence, technique, smoothness and consistence, becoming faster overall.

Personal natural skills that complement the received instruction may or may not help him or her to be as fast or faster than the instructor.

As many things in life, improving yourself is much more important and satisfying than excelling the next guy.

[Misti]

Originally Posted by CC Cowboy

No, you just need to be able to recognize what the student is doing correct and what the student is doing wrong. Then you need to be able to explain, show, or beat into the student the proper solution for their mistakes. Thus, making them a safer, better, faster, more knowledgable rider.

I agree with this for sure. I think a great coach is someone that can observe rider error and explain in a way that that particular student can understand how to resolve it. Being able to demonstrate proper technique helps but sometimes it isn't possible to ride at the same pace as the student. I've worked with a few blazing fast students that I couldn't rider faster than, but I could ride with for a few turns and observe them from off track and explain what they could do in order to improve. We also have guys like WSBK rider Leon Camier attend the school and while none of us coaches are faster than him, he still learns and improves from what is taught.

Keith Code is a great example of this as well in that he doesn't ride as fast as the racers he coaches but he certainly gets the job done and helps them improve!

[CC Cowboy]

Originally Posted by Misti

Keith Code is a great example of this as well in that he doesn't ride as fast as the racers he coaches but he certainly gets the job done and helps them improve!

Plus Keith has the guru look!

[Yakaru]

For me it is about environment. If someone says "try this" or "this works for me" that's advice. If someone says "try this", then has you try it right then, then they give feedback and you repeat -- that's instruction.

[YamiLionheart]

If someone advises you generally it's just a one time explanation of something whether it be advice or a warning.

Instruction is taught, and generally followed up upon, giving you feedback on how well or poor you did with the advice that was given.

Example being:

Talking to your riding buddy at a bar, he advises that when turning hard and leaning, you should keep on your toes and slide your butt off to the side of the seat so the bike can stay more upright and be less likely to slide out from under you.

The other hand:

You'er taking an advanced MSF course or maybe track training and the instructor tells you the same information, but now watches you while you attempt to incorporate it into your riding and critiques you on what you did wrong and what you did correctly.

[Misti]

Great discussion guys thanks I need to get riding soon!!

Did I mention that I'm coaching at the California Superbike School March 25-26 in California can't wait, can't wait, can't wait!

Misti

[Yakaru]

Originally Posted by Misti

Great discussion guys thanks I need to get riding soon!!

Did I mention that I'm coaching at the California Superbike School March 25-26 in California can't wait, can't wait, can't wait!

Misti

Momaru and I are going this summer -- let us know how it goes!