Bent frame, what do?

[oblivion007]

So to start off here's a gallery of the pics I took. Sorry I couldn't circle the places I noticed bending. There's also other stuff going on with the frame/engine mounts. But I figured lets get some ideas from you guys!

http://imgur.com/a/YIxyN

Is this sort of thing fixable? I figure it's not.

Now do I part out? Keep the engine/wheels and what not until I graduate and then buy a tracker 250?

What do?

[Motofool]

There is nothing steel related that heat and force cannot fix.

You will need to find somebody that has the tools and knowledge to straighten that frame.

The forks must go.

[oblivion007]

Hmm I suppose I'll have my shop guru's take a look at it. They know a bit about frame straightening.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by oblivion007

Hmm I suppose I'll have my shop guru's take a look at it. They know a bit about frame straightening.

@alex.s has straighten his own frame; he may advise.

[alex.s]

just cut it apart along the welds, jig it up to correct specs and weld it back together with extra support.

if you have lots of extra steel, build a big frame jig with a few movable jacks and bend it back with that.you'll probably have to cut a few of those more deformed pieces out and rebuild

[jkv45]

Judging from what looks like buckling of the tubing on the bottom (in the second photo), I'd say you'd be best not to attempting a repair.

I worked in auto body for many years, and fixed a lot of major wrecks (pulling engines/trans and removing/replacing everything forward of the cowl), and if it was mine I wouldn't try to repair it.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Judging from what looks like buckling of the tubing on the bottom (in the second photo), I'd say you'd be best not to attempting a repair.

I worked in auto body for many years, and fixed a lot of major wrecks (pulling engines/trans and removing/replacing everything forward of the cowl), and if it was mine I wouldn't try to repair it.

you can cut out and replace sections of tube frame like you can't do with unit body frames.

you just weld in a collar around the inside of the receiver with two inner weld holes, then weld the new piece in over the collar

[oblivion007]

Originally Posted by alex.s

just cut it apart along the welds, jig it up to correct specs and weld it back together with extra support.

if you have lots of extra steel, build a big frame jig with a few movable jacks and bend it back with that.you'll probably have to cut a few of those more deformed pieces out and rebuild

Any idea where I can find such specs?

[alex.s]

stock rake is 26 degrees, wheelbase is 140cm

[oblivion007]

Originally Posted by alex.s

stock rake is 26 degrees, wheelbase is 140cm

Oh is that it? Okay. I figured I'd have to provide angles and lengths for each weld. I'll probably head to the shop today and talk to the guys about it.

Thanks.

[alex.s]

leave the engine bolted up at the 4 corners (all electrics removed) when you are tacking the frame up after you've made your cuts and your jig is set so you don't have to worry about engine alignment while you are getting the other numbers right. expect to be tacking, measuring, breaking, retacking, measuring, etc quite a lot.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

you can cut out and replace sections of tube frame like you can't do with unit body frames.

you just weld in a collar around the inside of the receiver with two inner weld holes, then weld the new piece in over the collar

I've build 4130 chrome moly roll cages, and am familiar with bending and welding tubing, and I wouldn't recommend it. The tubing is kinked on the underside of the bend, not it a straight open section. There's not much to say you have the frame back in the proper position when you remove a section. You want everything positioned properly before removing any structural members - that's extremely difficult to confirm here.

I cut and welded sections of unibody all the time, and was trained in special techniques required for repairing areas of High Strength Steel (HSS).

Repairing isn't feasible in this case - trust me.

[alex.s]

are you saying you don't think it's possible to cut out the backbone, cross member, and the two shoulder blade bends, rebuild them with fresh steel, and weld the new piece in with collars? or are you saying that after doing that, it's going to be close to impossible to get the geometry just right?

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

are you saying you don't think it's possible to cut out the backbone, cross member, and the two shoulder blade bends, rebuild them with fresh steel, and weld the new piece in with collars? or are you saying that after doing that, it's going to be close to impossible to get the geometry just right?

Yes.

It's not advisable (or safe) to do that amount of structural removal/replacement without having fixtures securing the critical mounting points in their correct (pre-crash) positions.

If you were to remove that much, you'd never get the geometry correct IMO, plus some of the tubing you'd need to replace would be difficult to duplicate because of its shape and difficult to weld and splice properly because of its location.

[astricklin]

I am definitely not an expert by any means, but I thought people custom make motorcycle frames every day? Why could it not be done? Sure you would have to have the right tools and know how.
It may be more financially viable to just get a non-bent frame with title from ebay however.

[oblivion007]

Originally Posted by astricklin

I am definitely not an expert by any means, but I thought people custom make motorcycle frames every day? Why could it not be done? Sure you would have to have the right tools and know how.
It may be more financially viable to just get a non-bent frame with title from ebay however.

This might be possible as one of the shop gurus has a jig and has built some dragbike frames in his time. But I think his Jig thingy is busy with one of his harleys and will be soon busy with my buds dragbike. Would be neat if I could get a custom frame for that sexy cafe racer style bike.

[alex.s]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Yes.

It's not advisable (or safe) to do that amount of structural removal/replacement without having fixtures securing the critical mounting points in their correct (pre-crash) positions.

If you were to remove that much, you'd never get the geometry correct IMO, plus some of the tubing you'd need to replace would be difficult to duplicate because of its shape and difficult to weld and splice properly because of its location.

the critical mounting points are: 4 engine bolt locations, sprocket alignment and swingarm alignment, steering tube offset from swingarm pivot, and steering tube rake.

why could you not weld up a box jig to create the correct wheelbase and rake and neck offset, cut away everything damaged, and rebuild identical pieces in line with the jig at the 5 points that it connects to the frame?... with the engine in, maybe even forks, and wheels in place depending on how you build the jig?

if it is welded properly and collared and reinforced with gussets on the corner joins, it should not be any weaker than a normal tube section, no? how much weaker would two jointed tubes with a collar inside be compared to a single tube? it seems like the extra internal steel at and beyond the join from the collar would add quite a bit to the strength of the tube.

[Felipe the Ant]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Yes.

It's not advisable (or safe) to do that amount of structural removal/replacement without having fixtures securing the critical mounting points in their correct (pre-crash) positions.

If you were to remove that much, you'd never get the geometry correct IMO, plus some of the tubing you'd need to replace would be difficult to duplicate because of its shape and difficult to weld and splice properly because of its location.

Which are you more worried about, geometry or metallurgy? It's just a 250, if it were mine i'd probably just bend it and then weld some splints on it or something. It looks to me like it's just stuck together to hold the bike together and would be strong enough no matter how the geometry is

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by alex.s

the critical mounting points are: 4 engine bolt locations, sprocket alignment and swingarm alignment, steering tube offset from swingarm pivot, and steering tube rake.

why could you not weld up a box jig to create the correct wheelbase and rake and neck offset, cut away everything damaged, and rebuild identical pieces in line with the jig at the 5 points that it connects to the frame?... with the engine in, maybe even forks, and wheels in place depending on how you build the jig?

if it is welded properly and collared and reinforced with gussets on the corner joins, it should not be any weaker than a normal tube section, no? how much weaker would two jointed tubes with a collar inside be compared to a single tube? it seems like the extra internal steel at and beyond the join from the collar would add quite a bit to the strength of the tube.

Could it be done? Sure.

Is it feasible to do? No.

Could repairing it make it unsafe? Yes.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Felipe the Ant

Which are you more worried about, geometry or metallurgy? It's just a 250, if it were mine i'd probably just bend it and then weld some splints on it or something. It looks to me like it's just stuck together to hold the bike together and would be strong enough no matter how the geometry is

With the damage it has, that's visible, I don't think it would ride properly and safely with minor repairs and reinforcements.

[simook]

How did you wreck it anyways?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by jkv45

Could it be done? Sure.

Is it feasible to do? No.

Could repairing it make it unsafe? Yes.

I understand and respect your points, Jay.

Consider these:
- Hard to tell what can be done safely from our remote points of view.
- Hard to tell how much time, care, heating , cutting and welding that repair may take.
- Hard to find somebody with decent expertise, proper tools and space and will to attempt the repair.
That is why the OP needs to find a local capable expert.

Let's say that local expert is you and your diagnostic is to toss the frame; very well then.

What if that expert is someone else and he finds that the work can be done with less investment than finding a "straight" frame in e-bay and trying to make it legal?
The OP has a more economic alternative then and he may learn one or two tricks in the repair process.

Brute force twisted the frame; brute force and heat can take it back to the original shape.
The heat eliminates the dangerous part, as the metal relieves most of the acquired internal tensions.

The structural element in the picture works mainly under compression and under some tension during braking, as it forms a truss with the engine.
Those forces are much smaller than the crashing forces that developed when the OP rear ended another vehicle and that took the metal beyond the elastic limit.



Any failure after repair should not be catastrophic, as we had a member here riding around with a frame completely separated by a crack on that part of the frame.
The OP only has to remove the tank once in while to check the integrity of the repair.

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Brute force twisted the frame; brute force and heat can take it back to the original shape.

That's not always true. Things can bend and crush in such a way that simply applying the same force in the opposite direction will not move the part back to its original shape.

[alex.s]

you are definitely right about that. a crinkled tube is worthless in my opinion. the far side gets long tears and weak points and the inside gets holes on the crease. and you can't really even see them either, under all that powder. best to just replace those pieces.

you could always find a donor frame that can no longer be titled on the cheap, then cut out the head and other important bits with numbers on them from the old frame and weld them onto the donor frame.

[oblivion007]

Link to how I crashed it.

I like the discussion going on in here, I'm learning a bit. As far as knowing someone competent in frame work I already have that.

So I went to the shop yesterday and it turns out my mentor had already stopped by and talked to them about it. One of the gurus will be over on Monday to check it out. The other guru frame builder/dragster is likely to show up sometime in the month too to hang out.

I'll get some more info then. Anyways for now some more pics. I noticed the engine mounts have been compromised. The bolt held but the thingy that goes from the frame to engine failed on both front mounts. Here's a pic of one side and my sweet setup lol.

http://imgur.com/a/iqmVb

[alex.s]

believe it or not, that's a good thing and is designed to break first. you would rather have that 10$ piece of metal break than have your head cracked.

[oblivion007]

So my guru checked out the bike today and suggested I just go for a new frame. I'll take his advice as he's the only guy I know of that will straighten frames.

Anyone have any ideas where to look?

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by alex.s

stock rake is 26 degrees, wheelbase is 140cm

Bicycles and motorcycles are measured from opposite ends aren't they? Bicycle frames are always like 60-74ish degrees, motorcycles are always like 30-20ish

26 degree motorcycle = 64 degree bicycle.

[alex.s]

it's all perspective

[Skullz]

Get one used from ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/09-Kawasaki-...bcba72&vxp=mtr

[oblivion007]

Any idea on the comparability of the frames from 08-12? Were there any minor changes between these years?