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Old June 30th, 2019, 02:00 PM   #1
DannoXYZ
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Godzilla is acting up! Bad Monster!!!

Ok, Maverick9611 is having problem with his red bike that started couple months ago

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/show...ight=stumbling

Some sprinkling of info in other threads.
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=329169
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=335914

Current summary
Quote:
working closely with danno
replaced checked so far
carbs rebuilt by gordon
ignitor replaced by known good unit(danno's race bike)
bike switched to pods. problem happened with airbox and pods, so we can eliminate air.
petcock fuel/timing test passed
gas cap is a vented slingshot racing cap(yes i rode with cap unscrewed)
valves all checked at top end of spec(just did 2000 miles ago)
coils/plug boots changed from green bike(was running sticks coils when problem happened)
tyga exhaust totally clear
plugs/gap checked
have new plugs coming
had 2 shims on needles gonna remove them
battery good/connections tight
i ordered compression tester be here tomorrow.starts to fall on it face at 5500 rpm. max rpm with throttle wide open is 7000rpm. runs like its loaded up. not good. everybody put your thinking cap on this one. been try to lock it down since devils whip ride
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Old June 30th, 2019, 02:13 PM   #2
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Here's items that's been tested and declared good.

stick-coils (inferred from using other coils)
factory coils from green bike
factory coils from red bike
Danno's IC igniter
factory IC igniter (inferred from using Danno's unit)
NGK Iridium plugs gapped to 0.037"

factory airbox & filter (inferred from pods install)
pod filters
petcock and filters - flows 380cc/min
gas cap, vented an tested with no cap
carbs refurbed by ducatiman

valve-clearances are at upper-end of range
cam-timing is correct, I assume cam-chain tension OK?
Tyga exhaust is clear
pyrometer showed both header pipes same temp.

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Old June 30th, 2019, 02:27 PM   #3
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Items yet to do:

- manually spin motor and verify all valves move together
- compression test
- install factory CR8E plugs
- remove shims/washers on needles

- stumbling at 1/4 and 1/2 throttle?
- duct-tape over 50% of each pod-filter's surface area. Does it rev ok at 1/2 throttle? Full thottle?

- measure battery voltage with bike off and with bike running
- unplug both red wire from both coils, key ON, what is voltage at each red wire?
- wiggle and yank on various parts of harness wires. Does voltage at each red wire change?
- key OFF, measure resistance between two red coil wires
- measure resistance between each red coil wire and chassis ground

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Old June 30th, 2019, 02:32 PM   #4
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clue

You mentioned #2 plug was rich/fouled and #1 was tan.
Please post photo of these plugs

I think there's some kind of air-flow mis-match between cylinders, leading to one side getting fouled. Compression-test will give some valuable data to work with

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Old July 1st, 2019, 07:27 AM   #5
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plugs changed to ngk cr8e.
2 shims on needles removed
compression test in the works
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Old July 1st, 2019, 10:49 AM   #6
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coils?

Originally Posted by Snake
Could it be the coil that is having problems at higher rpms?
i swapped stock coils from green bike and i ohmíd em out. they passed and were in spec. so no. i used green bikes plug boots also. remember red bike has stick coils. the problem happened with stick coils. so swapping red stock coils or green bikes stock coils and problem still exist means coil not the issue.
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Old July 1st, 2019, 12:26 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
plugs changed to ngk cr8e.
from what?
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Old January 27th, 2020, 12:00 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
from what?
i had some of the e3's in there that i had put when i was at truck stop troubleshooting.
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Old January 27th, 2020, 12:08 PM   #9
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updates

i know this thread is dead but some updates
compression checked ok
ignitor and coils ok
wiring harness checked at various points ok
could a cam be out of round?
when i start giving it throttle left carb slide starts to flutter and sounds like cylinder is loading up.
if coil, plugs, boots are ok what can cause this? intake boots ok also.
i will take vid of back of carbs while applying throttle.
slide flutter and gas backwash is quite noticable on left carb only
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Old January 27th, 2020, 12:24 PM   #10
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carb flutter

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old January 27th, 2020, 01:09 PM   #11
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you said compression and valve lash is ok. you could have a cam lobe that is wiped, not allowing the valve to open as much or as long as it should. i see the vapor back flowing from the intake tract on the left cyl. an exhaust valve not opening enough could be the culprit, and still give you good compression, and your valve lash is checked on the base circle area of the cam so you would not know if the raised part of the lobe was worn down. may want to pull the cams and measure them with a dial caliper or similar. i believe the workshop manual has specs for cam measurements. lift, etc...

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Old January 27th, 2020, 01:21 PM   #12
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I take it video shot with choke fully off.....how about adding some choke till RPM's rise...any improvement in throttle response with application?

Does the bike behave as others under choke when cold? Able to reach higher RPM?

Can you review the conditions under which the bike went from normal to failure? Its certainly been awhile. If I remember...it was immediate, no?
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Old January 27th, 2020, 02:02 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
I take it video shot with choke fully off.....how about adding some choke till RPM's rise...any improvement in throttle response with application?

Does the bike behave as others under choke when cold? Able to reach higher RPM?

Can you review the conditions under which the bike went from normal to failure? Its certainly been awhile. If I remember...it was immediate, no?
no on reaching higher rpm. maybe 6 at best. symptons started on devils whip in march 2109. 3 hours into the ride it started acting like i had no idle. mid/top end fine. since i was so far from homebase i elected to push on. only issue was
idle control. i turned up idle and finished the whip. on way home outside spartanburg. bike started to die on interstate, total loss of power(seize) i thought fuel delivery, water in tank, or ignition. limped to a truck stop, pulled tank and fairing. replace inline fuel filter, verified petcock working, changed plugs. guy i met went to parts store and got me some sea foam. i put some in fuel line and tank. test road it and it worked fine(including idle) got back on the road. 1.5 hours later near columbia i had to slow down due to traffic and bike went into same no power hestitation issue, sometimes wide open throttle would clean it up. topped off gas tank and put rest of seafoam in. ran fine again for about 2 hours, soon as i came off of mains problem came right back. made it home. next day pulled carbs, found bad diagram. ordered a new one. installed it. started it up and same effect. erratic idle and would not accept any throttle. i contacted you in jun/jul and sent carbs to you. you found some minor issues(float level)? but nothing major. reinstalled carbs, no change. i talked to you some more on wiring, ignition. problem started with stick coils, so i installed with stock coils. all coils stick and stock ohmed fine. replaced ignitor with known good one from danno's race bike. no effect same issue. compression test good 170 psi on both cylinders. airbox removed and pod filter put on for easy access. tried stock and aftermarket gas gap. no change.
swapped batteries with new one. no effect. valve clearance checked, all good.
swap plugs to stock. noticed#1 cylinder was rich with fuel on it. #2 normal. intake boots checked/good
vent line on carb clear. i had poured out gas after that ride and put fresh in.
what causes that slide flutter? is that a clue that cylinder is loading up?
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Old January 27th, 2020, 03:30 PM   #14
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on these carbs was a jet kit ever installed at any time, then removed and reverted back to stock jetting?

If you've got free and clear, easy access to carbs...remove the tops and compare length of L&R return springs....also holes drilled in base of both slides.
Give me a measured length of springs.... and a diameter measurement of the holes (using butt of drill bits to gauge)

I'll compare the values to stuff I've got here. Just to eliminate weird variables.

Though I recognize this doesn't necessarily explain the immediate failure occurring within your ride.
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Old January 27th, 2020, 03:43 PM   #15
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no on jet kit. ok, i will measure. bike is totally stripped down for troubleshoot ,easy to pull carbs.
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Old January 28th, 2020, 08:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
symptons started on devils whip in march 2109.
Found your problem. Time travel can play hell with carbs, you need a new flux capacitor.
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Old January 30th, 2020, 06:32 PM   #17
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Found your problem. Time travel can play hell with carbs, you need a new flux capacitor.
i doubt its the carbs. its ghost in the machine
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Old February 7th, 2020, 04:02 AM   #18
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BTW - are these carbs the ones that had extra holes drilled in slides? Didn't I send you my carbs to test and still same symptoms?

Reviewing symptoms we know about...
Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
  • no on reaching higher rpm. maybe 6 at best.
  • 3 hours into the ride it started acting like i had no idle. mid/top end fine.
  • only issue was idle control. i turned up idle and finished the whip
  • bike started to die on interstate, total loss of power(seize)
  • got me some sea foam. i put some in fuel line and tank. test road it and it worked fine(including idle)
  • 1.5 hours later near columbia i had to slow down due to traffic and bike went into same no power hestitation issue,
  • sometimes wide open throttle would clean it up
  • sent carbs to you [ducatiman]. you found some minor issues(float level)? but nothing major. reinstalled carbs, no change.
  • swap plugs to stock. noticed#1 cylinder was rich with fuel on it. #2 normal.
I think we can rule out mechanical issue (cam-timing, valve-lift, CCT, etc.) due to quick onset and quick resolution using sea-foam. Along with quick reappearance of same symptoms hours later. Parts do not wear out and restore to good-condition and wear out again that fast. Wouldn't hurt to measure cam-lobes just to rule them out.

All these symptoms appear to point towards some sort of fuel-flow issue: tank, petcock, vacuum hoses, etc. Need to test and measure to gather actual data (numbers) to determine if these parts are bad.

Measure actual vacuum going to petcock. A lot of times, people apply artificial vacuum levels with sucking/pumps/syringes and petcock works fine. However, in field use, actual vacuum level arriving at petcock from carbs may be well below what's needed to keep sufficient fuel flowing. Measuring actual vacuum in vacuum lines under actual operating conditions may reveal some clues.

Then correlate that vacuum-level with actual fuel-flow volume through petcock may reveal even more data that's helpful.
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Old February 7th, 2020, 04:30 AM   #19
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we did prime check and vacuum into a measured container, plus amount in fuel bowls was measured. gordon rechecked carbs that he recently refurbished. everything was fine looked like new. will change crankshaft position sensor
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Old February 7th, 2020, 10:03 AM   #20
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That’s what I’m talking about. Priming petcock with artificial amounts of vacuum. That’s not realistic test. Rather leave vacuum hose connected between carbs & petcock and measure actual vacuum. Clue is giving it throttle seems to help. You get more vacuum with larger throttle. So two measurements we’re interested in is:

- vacuum to petcock at idle/low-throttle
- vacuum to petcock at high/WOT

These numbers would be useful data.
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Old April 24th, 2020, 12:19 PM   #21
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Installed crankshaft position sensor a new battery. no change. gordon checked my carbs again just to be sure. fires right up and idles normal. give it any gas it wants to die or number one cylinder starts to load up. what am i missing?
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Old April 24th, 2020, 01:36 PM   #22
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I had an issue for about two weeks, that had a similar symptom ( no power from idle, to midrange. At high rpm, both cylinders running fine.)

My spring in the carb slide would actually get bent/stuck sideways. Preventing the slide to open, until a higher vacuum was achieved to release it. I found this out because when I opened the carbs, one spring was stuck sideways.

Cutting out the long story of testing, and resetting...repeat..

I replaced the set of springs, and the issue hasnt come back.
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Old April 24th, 2020, 03:10 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAU-8 View Post
I had an issue for about two weeks, that had a similar symptom ( no power from idle, to midrange. At high rpm, both cylinders running fine.)

My spring in the carb slide would actually get bent/stuck sideways. Preventing the slide to open, until a higher vacuum was achieved to release it. I found this out because when I opened the carbs, one spring was stuck sideways.

Cutting out the long story of testing, and resetting...repeat..

I replaced the set of springs, and the issue hasnt come back.
unfortunately carbs are brand new twice over. this is not the problem.
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Old April 24th, 2020, 07:04 PM   #24
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so, carbs are good twice over. tank, fuel delivery passed. running slingshot vented gas cap so that eliminates tank venting. airbox gone, running pod filter. no obstructions. intake boots to cylinders look good. 3 different ignitors tried. 1 from dannoís race bike. dannoís race carbs tried also. no change. compression good on cylinders, plugs have been changed too. tyga exhaust totally broke down end to end, no obstructions.
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Old April 25th, 2020, 04:11 AM   #25
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maybe i should buy a used set of cams on ebay and try that. maybe i have a out of round lobe. this crap is killin me
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Old April 25th, 2020, 09:32 AM   #26
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on its way

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Old April 25th, 2020, 10:07 AM   #27
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Did you measure existing cams?

Quick change in behavior doesnít sound like cams. Seafoam canít possibly fix worn cams, then wear them out again.

Very strange ...

Do you have factory exhaust?
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Old April 25th, 2020, 10:52 AM   #28
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Yeah, measuring the old cam's lobes with an inexpensive dial indicator is easy to do before you actually change cams.
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Old April 25th, 2020, 10:53 AM   #29
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yes, but i donít understand how factory exhaust will help this issue. no i havenít pulled camshafts yet. i will start once i get the ebay ones in.
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Old April 25th, 2020, 10:59 AM   #30
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things we know are right.
ignitor
carbs
fuel delivery
coils using stock had stock coils with problem. do coils are eliminated.
compression good
changed plugs
totally took apart tyga exhaust. piece by piece.not clogged
battery was bad. put new one on. no change.
timing check/cams checked/lash checked. all good
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Old April 25th, 2020, 01:40 PM   #31
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Try this mix in tank:

1/2-cup ATF
1/2-cup MMO
1/4-cup Oil of Wintergreen (methyl salicylate)

Fill up tank to full after adding additives.

Also add 1/4-cup ATF to crankcase.

Then go for 50-mile ride keeping it in easy at low loads. Let it sit overnight and think about its crimes. Then do another easy 50-mile ride at low-loads.
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Old April 25th, 2020, 01:56 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
yes, but i don’t understand how factory exhaust will help this issue. no i haven’t pulled camshafts yet. i will start once i get the ebay ones in.
Thing is we don’t know what’s causing this issue. If we did, it would be simple fix. What we do know is it ran perfectly fine when it left showroom floor. Then after series of mods, trouble started up.

So logically, trouble was included in some of those mods. Which ones we have no idea. So simplest and quickest fix is to restore to bone-stock condition. Kinds like swapping carbs between green and red bikes. It's the "what you-don't-know you-don't-know" until it's discovered through some experimentation.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; April 25th, 2020 at 11:36 PM.
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Old April 25th, 2020, 07:58 PM   #33
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maverick9611,
I'll suggest to use a dial indicator to check the duration of the closing ramps of the intake cam lobes. Or simply install 2 sizes thinner (.004" thinner) valve shims into all 4 intake valve buckets.

Late closing of intakes will cause reversion. Reversion causes rich carburation.
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Old April 26th, 2020, 05:33 AM   #34
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thanx pd, i will try that. still baffled how it happened on my devils whip ride. shouldn't it have done it right away after valve lash check/reshim(done months before issue on ride)
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Old April 26th, 2020, 05:39 AM   #35
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keep on eliminating

know elimination chart
happened with stick coils. running stock coils now. i ohmed em too. they passed
coils eliminated.
have tried 3 different ignitors/ one of danno's race bike. problem still exist.
ignitors eliminated
airbox was one with problem, running no airbox ,now. problem exist.
airbox eliminated.
fuel tap/fuel delivery timed in measuring cup. it passed. fuel vent on tank is racing cap with vent hole. tank/fuel delivery eliminated.
cards have been to gordon not once but twice. first was a refurb.second to find out if carbs were the issue. no they are not. carbs eliminated.
valve lash checked still i spec from last time i checked it. cam phasing time and engine time verified.
compression test passed. it was right in middle of spec
installed new lithium battery
installed used crankshaft position sensor. no change, so sensor eliminated.
spark plugs changed 3x over. cylinder one looks darker than cylinder 2(this is a clue)
i bought a used camshaft set. will measure my cams to see if they pass specs.
will measure the other and might install if its ok
tyga exhaust totally broke down end to end. all clear no obstructions.
at a loss on why its doing this. cylinder one sounds like its loading up when throttle is applied.will try pauls reshim down on intakes, what do i have to lose?
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Old April 26th, 2020, 05:48 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdwestman View Post
maverick9611,
I'll suggest to use a dial indicator to check the duration of the closing ramps of the intake cam lobes. Or simply install 2 sizes thinner (.004" thinner) valve shims into all 4 intake valve buckets.

Late closing of intakes will cause reversion. Reversion causes rich carburation.
0.15 ∼ 0.24 mm (0.0059 ∼ 0.0094 in.)intake spec
so just go down .004? from what i currently have in there?
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Old April 26th, 2020, 08:53 AM   #37
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off to Harbor freight to get a micrometer.

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Old April 26th, 2020, 09:59 AM   #38
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While you’re there, measure cam-chain stretch amount as well.
And grease tensioner.
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Old April 26th, 2020, 10:34 AM   #39
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had to abort. need 2.75 shim. 3 done, will swing by dealer
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Old April 26th, 2020, 01:00 PM   #40
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While youíre there, measure cam-chain stretch amount as well.
And grease tensioner.
10/4
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