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Old May 1st, 2020, 03:02 PM   #81
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a toast to a chain tensioner

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Old May 1st, 2020, 06:20 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Be sure to schedule monthly tension adjustment with manual unit. Leaving too long will destroy your chain and cams.
Personally, I'll suggest that one can over-adjust a manual tensioner by doing it too often, trying to keep zero slack, zero slack, zero slack!
If it has one little spot that it is just a touch too snug, it HAS to wear to accommodate that snug spot.

A drive chain system of any kind really does not last as long with ZERO Slack, as it does with 'some slack'.

Allow me to suggest to Check the adjustment at the Same EXACT TDC MARK once every 5000-7500 miles.
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Old May 2nd, 2020, 06:27 AM   #83
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Old May 2nd, 2020, 11:58 AM   #84
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Well, not aiming for “zero slack”, but “just right” with “some slack”. What happens a lot is people don’t have a way to measure chain-tension, so “zero slack” becomes only identifiable target. It really should be about 1mm with about 8-lbs push on chain.

With enough practice and experience, you can get a feel for right tension when pushing on chain. Until you get that feel down, chain should be checked regularly and tension inspected. Only adjust if necessary.

Hard to quantify, what you need is CCT with gauge. Some kind of calibrated mechanism to keep chain at proper tension.
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Old May 2nd, 2020, 04:20 PM   #85
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Interesting and a bit surprising to me...I'm working on a Honda 750 Shadow V twin right now....2 separate cam chains....using a coil spring arrangement to determine tension (not traditional tensioners as used on so many inline 2's and 4's)
Internal, no maintenance nor settings, meant for the life of the engine apparently, though admittedly this Honda V is no where near a rev monster.
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Old May 2nd, 2020, 05:15 PM   #86
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Well, not aiming for “zero slack”, but “just right” with “some slack”. What happens a lot is people don’t have a way to measure chain-tension, so “zero slack” becomes only identifiable target. It really should be about 1mm with about 8-lbs push on chain.

With enough practice and experience, you can get a feel for right tension when pushing on chain. Until you get that feel down, chain should be checked regularly and tension inspected. Only adjust if necessary.

Hard to quantify, what you need is CCT with gauge. Some kind of calibrated mechanism to keep chain at proper tension.
That is why the factories designed Automatic Cam Chain Tensioners way back in the Late 1970's/Early 80's.

Most of them are quite reliable with standard tension valve springs & standard lift cams.
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Old May 2nd, 2020, 05:22 PM   #87
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So what was "before" valve-clearances of individual valves?
And "after" clearances from adjustment?

That way, correlation with change in behavior can be made. This lack of quantified data seems to imply sloppy measurements, no measurements and/or disregard for specifications altogether. Which may be what started this mess to begin with.

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Old May 2nd, 2020, 05:32 PM   #88
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Sometimes... the liquid solution is best!!! My wife got me bottle of this for my B-day!!!


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Old May 3rd, 2020, 12:38 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
Interesting and a bit surprising to me...I'm working on a Honda 750 Shadow V twin right now....2 separate cam chains....using a coil spring arrangement to determine tension (not traditional tensioners as used on so many inline 2's and 4's)
Internal, no maintenance nor settings, meant for the life of the engine apparently, though admittedly this Honda V is no where near a rev monster.
I really like tensioner design on my Honda V4. It's curved steel spring with plastic slipper surface that presses on cam-chain over 6" section. Large contact-area reduces load and creates high durability.

Another concern is harmonics in sections of chain around contact point. With small single-contact point to adjust tension, you end up with harmonics on either side based upon engine-RPM.

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Old May 6th, 2020, 06:25 AM   #90
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Sometimes... the liquid solution is best!!! My wife got me bottle of this for my B-day!!!

sweet!
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Old May 22nd, 2020, 09:34 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Well, not aiming for “zero slack”, but “just right” with “some slack”. What happens a lot is people don’t have a way to measure chain-tension, so “zero slack” becomes only identifiable target. It really should be about 1mm with about 8-lbs push on chain.

With enough practice and experience, you can get a feel for right tension when pushing on chain. Until you get that feel down, chain should be checked regularly and tension inspected. Only adjust if necessary.

Hard to quantify, what you need is CCT with gauge. Some kind of calibrated mechanism to keep chain at proper tension.
since deals gap ride is over. im on on the ninja. installing manual tensioner. difficult to press on chain when the chain/guard is over it. i can just get my fingernail on it and just push it down.
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Old May 22nd, 2020, 09:38 AM   #92
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as i push on chain and rotate crank. where is the the best spot/position to check chain lash. certain spot when rotating the chain is looser than other positions.
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Old May 22nd, 2020, 03:30 PM   #93
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is anybody alive in the matrix?

just need to install tank and new lithium battery. probably tommorow
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Old May 23rd, 2020, 08:30 AM   #94
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bike started/warmed it up. doing the same thing. it will not accept any throttle.
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Old May 23rd, 2020, 08:33 AM   #95
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i do have have ebay cams that just came in. should i swap these in?
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Old May 23rd, 2020, 11:08 PM   #96
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i do have have ebay cams that just came in. should i swap these in?
Personally I would measure them to make sure they're same as stock. You're introducing yet another variable of unknowns.
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Old May 24th, 2020, 01:10 AM   #97
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finally

i ran across a thread where a ninja 250 had the exact problem i was having. a dead cylinder. remember problem started after i hit those deep potholes at night in carolina. it got progressively worse and sometimes disappear. i need to follow ignitor coil wire for cylinder #1 from end to end. could be grounded to frame somewhere. i checked about 60 % of harness. will try this. or as a quick check. verify voltage of coils while bike is running. i could use some insulated jumper wires. is this possible?
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Old May 24th, 2020, 01:16 AM   #98
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danno, do you know what wire color i need to focus on. i know its green by the coil. ignitor going forward is a different color
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Old May 24th, 2020, 01:43 AM   #99
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i found it. its green all the way. will report back today with findings.
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Old May 24th, 2020, 02:30 PM   #100
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Didn't we already test both sets of ignition wires? If you test signals at end-points and they're good, there's no need to test wiring.

coil RED - you'll want constant +12v fulltime with key ON, wiggle harness between ignition-switch and coils to test for breaks or shorts.
coil GREEN - use oscilloscope or 'noid light to check for grounding-pulses
coil BLACK - use oscilloscope or 'noid light to check for grounding-pulses

Amazon - solenoid light

Even better to test with oscilloscope, should get clean waveform like this with grounding-pulses all way down to zero:



I recall you cut green wire to test at one point? Strange test procedure. Make sure you tie, solder and heat-shrink wrap that cut back together. No crimp joints, no electrical tape. Do it right, do it once, or else there's always time to do it again later. If you have bad signal, then inspect every single inch of wire from end to end wire all 360-degrees around to make sure there's no exposed section rubbing on frame or other wires. Also measure resistance between ends of wire. Have assistant grab and wiggle wire in between. Signal shouldn't change.
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Old May 24th, 2020, 02:35 PM   #101
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yea we put a meter on them. it passed. i still jumpered black and green coil wires coming from ignitor. no effect, did not change anything. except tach stopped working. another dead end
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Old May 24th, 2020, 02:44 PM   #102
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What you need is quantitative data meaning numbers. Measure voltage at each coil RED terminal. Then wiggle wires everywhere while monitoring that voltage, should not ever change.

Getting useful data on grounding signal wire is more difficult, so borrow, rent, steal an oscilloscope if you can. Or at least get the solenoid test light. Either way will give us more useful data that we don't have now. Critical part is verifying you have clean square-waves coming out of ECU and that they go all way down to zero volts during spark interval. If not, there may be issues with wiring and/or ECU. Numbers we're looking for is something like this:
  • +12v for 20ms
  • 0v for 3ms
  • +12v for 22ms
  • 0v for 3ms
  • etc...
Varying durations based upon RPM.
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Old May 24th, 2020, 02:47 PM   #103
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Need some clarification on your symptoms:

1. Cuts out in mid-range under ALL loads? If you use 25% throttle or less, does it rev past mid-range?

2. Never makes it past mid-range under ALL throttle-openings? In neutral can you rev past mid-range with just 10-15% throttle?
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Old May 24th, 2020, 02:49 PM   #104
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no i cut green coil wire at ignitor and ran ran a jumper wire to coil. this would bypass possible bad wire. did the same for the other coil. everything was insulated also
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Old May 24th, 2020, 02:54 PM   #105
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no i cut green coil wire at ignitor and ran ran a jumper wire to coil. this would bypass possible bad wire. did the same for the other coil. everything was insulated also
Yeah, that's not good. Testing needs to be non-destructive and not introduce any additional errors into system. Measuring resistance end-to-end is proper way to test a wire. Unless you've re-joined that green wire back using NASA standards, you cannot be 100% sure joint is good.

At this point, without actual measurements and numbers, your best bet is to get brand-new harness from Kawi dealer. DO NOT buy used harness off eBay or classifieds. It too will need testing and coming up with numbers like yours to verify it's good.
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Old May 24th, 2020, 03:07 PM   #106
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If you don't believe numbers meter gives you, and still want to run new wires to replace original ones, proper way is to not interfere with original wire in any way and just piggyback new wire on top. Remove only insulation and wrap new wire on top:



AND solder it on for good electrical conductivity.



Lack of solder is a very big problem. With crimped connections, it may appear to work in beginning. But over time with vibration and moisture corrosion, you'll end up with corroded and broken joints. Stress-riser from crimp accelerates this. Many planes have fallen out of sky from lack of solder.
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Old May 24th, 2020, 03:11 PM   #107
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come on danno really?
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Old May 24th, 2020, 03:19 PM   #108
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Yes, to get results you desire, requires very methodical and repeatable procedures. It's like 3-page Army manual on how to make chocolate-chip cookies. Anyone, anywhere can get exact same results.

Idea is to remove all possible error points. That's done through tried and true procedures that's guaranteed to last a long time (consult NASA wiring manual). I have 50-year warranty on my headlight upgrades & harnesses for Porsches (and Miatas, Jeeps). I stopped selling them 25-years ago and not single one has come back. People remove them when selling their cars to keep them for future use! Sometimes they come up on eBay going for twice what I originally sold them for!
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Old May 24th, 2020, 03:24 PM   #109
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well talk tomorrow. let me wrap my brain around this. strange, the whole freakin world cannot figure this puzzle out
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Old May 24th, 2020, 03:30 PM   #110
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i ran across a thread where a ninja 250 had the exact problem i was having. a dead cylinder. remember problem started after i hit those deep potholes at night in carolina. it got progressively worse and sometimes disappear.
Yes, this is primary clue. Sporadic and inconsistent change in behavior is a sign of something. We need to focus on something that can change in an instant and back again... Dead-cylinder doesn't fit your symptoms as it would be dead all time, not improve and die again. Besides, your compression-test shows both cylinders are in good condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
Need some clarification on your symptoms:

1. Cuts out in mid-range under ALL loads? If you use 25% throttle or less, does it rev past mid-range?

2. Never makes it past mid-range under ALL throttle-openings? In neutral can you rev past mid-range with just 10-15% throttle?
Please answer these questions, would help narrow down possible areas needing testing.
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Old May 25th, 2020, 04:50 AM   #111
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it starts and idles normal.
as soon as throttle is open #1 cylinder starts to load and sound erratic.
difficult to reach mid throttle

if i keep opening throttle, i get intense smell of gas.
bike usually dies if throttle is opened.
since i got bike home. the symptoms have stabilized to just bad/unrideable. been on the stand since 03/19


i have pulled the plug on cylinder #1/it almost looks fouled.

we ruled out ignitor,coils,carbs,fuel delivery,air, has new battery.
what about safety switches?should i jumper them?
compression good on both cylinders too.
camshaft position sensor changed out also.
if i ran jumper wire from ignitor to each respective coil
green with 2 gray dots(cylinder#2) and black with 2 gray dots(cylinder#1) and no change occurred. would not this eliminate ignitor to coil test as ok?
damn sounds ignition related but how and where to look. or do i just buy a new wiring harness?
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Old May 29th, 2020, 05:09 AM   #112
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is it possible that i have a broke valve spring on intake side of cylinder #1. would a leak down test show this?
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Old Yesterday, 03:47 PM   #113
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swinging back to electrical.
retried stick coils: no change(ran worse)
retried original coils. no change
i tried measuring coils. cylinder #1 i got 2.1 volts at idle speed
cynlinder #2 1.5 volts
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Old Yesterday, 05:59 PM   #114
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Motorcycle(s): CB125T, Ninja250R racer, Ninja250R street bike, EX250F#1, EX250F#2, EX250E, VF500F, CBR600RR

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MOTY - 2018, MOTM - Nov '17
Ok, let's test under these conditions:

1. stock ignition coils installed
2. stock plug-wires installed
3. stock spark-plugs installed
4. ignition switch ON
5. bike OFF, not running.

6. What's voltage at each coil's RED terminal, using battery negative for ground-probe?
7. While keeping firm contact with test-leads, have assistant wiggle wiring-harness. From battery terminals all way forward to ignition-switch and headlight wiring. Does meter reach constant voltage? Or does it have drop-outs?
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