Racer X turbo build - Page 8

garth285 · July 1st, 2014, 07:40 AM

Question for ya, have you looked at any of the GT15 turbos instead of the VZ21?

Racer x · July 1st, 2014, 07:46 AM

Yes I did.
It cost twice as much and has a lot more flow. It's a better turbo as a full blown ultimate system. My goal is high compression and low boost to race a high altitude of Bonneville. So I want under 1/2 bar. I want to see how the engine pushes this little turbo before going big turbo inter cooler. That alone cost more that the entire project. So it's a one step at a time thing.

The turbo project will pick up again in October.

garth285 · July 1st, 2014, 07:52 AM

Got ya, yeah I have been looking at them and a regular GT15 goes for $170 on flebay and another 60 for flanges, which isnt far away from the VZ21.....

Now what I'm looking to maybe do is run a VNT turbo which if you haven't looked at those that may be a hot setup! I am familiar with them with turbo diesels and they have a set of vanes inside the exhaust housing to help spool the turbo faster but the GT1544V turbos are about $300. Up to $430 depending on model.... Hmmmmmmmmmmm

mgentz · July 1st, 2014, 05:54 PM

Ah what fun.
@Racer x why the delay until Oct?

Racer x · July 2nd, 2014, 01:05 AM

Raceing the nitrous bike in September . And in Aufgust I am crew for a turbo 500 Honda that I expect to become the fastest 500cc motorcycle ever. Maybe. 210-215 mph

SouthHalfrican · July 22nd, 2014, 01:55 AM

Great read. Interested in seeing what happens this October for you.

Racer x · November 23rd, 2014, 08:45 AM

This build is going to take a strange twist.
I need to build maps for the fuel injection. I need to ride the bike or dyno the bike to do this. So I am hanging this frame from the rafters to await another build.

The turbo will continue but on a different thread.
The new bike is called (for now) the Salt Shaker)
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205588
This is the new build thread.

JeffroJ · December 12th, 2014, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer x

This build is going to take a strange twist.
I need to build maps for the fuel injection. I need to ride the bike or dyno the bike to do this. So I am hanging this frame from the rafters to await another build.

The turbo will continue but on a different thread.
The new bike is called (for now) the Salt Shaker)
https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=205588
This is the new build thread.

Awesomeness! 250s are fun little bikes to work on.

Racer x · December 31st, 2015, 06:24 PM

OK 2016 is here!!!!
Turbo time
Now here is the deal. I have moved to Iowa. I now have a new house and new shop. Zero money and no job. I have to remodel my house and then get a job. So this will be interesting.
This is what I have to work with.

I have my old 2001 turbo project that was never finished. Or even really started.
I have Garth's turbo system that worked but had some issues at high boost. It seems at 10000 rpm the valves stayed open because of the boost pressure.
I have 2010 ninja 250 that was wrecked.
I also have a pile of odds and ends that are left over from eight years of racing at both Maxton and Ohio.

I am now going to bring all this together and try to build a turbocharged 250 ninja.

Somchai · December 31st, 2015, 07:10 PM

Eric I wish you a great success with your project but much more than this all the best for your future.
Happy new year to you and @all here with your families too

mgentz · January 1st, 2016, 02:33 PM

Happy new year! Can't wait to see what you come up with.

Dave Wolfe · January 1st, 2016, 05:37 PM

Welcome to Iowa, neighbor! Im up the road in Cedar Rapids.

Racer x · January 2nd, 2016, 07:43 PM

Well things were going well. Then I began to try to fit the turbo plumbing to the bike. The tank I have is built for a nitrous bike with carbs . So it is low in the frame. The stock tank is resting above the frame. With the custom tank there is no room for anything.

I am going to have to go to the 2010 frame, seat and bodywork. I would otherwise have to redesign the tank and the turbo system And figure out the seat and bodywork.
The 2010 bike is complete. So I am starting over sorta.

HoneyBadgerRy · January 2nd, 2016, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer x

Well things were going well. Then I began to try to fit the turbo plumbing to the bike. The tank I have is built for a nitrous bike with carbs . So it is low in the frame. The stock tank is resting above the frame. With the custom tank there is no room for anything.

I am going to have to go to the 2010 frame, seat and bodywork. I would otherwise have to redesign the tank and the turbo system And figure out the seat and bodywork.
The 2010 bike is complete. So I am starting over sorta.

How hard would it be to can up a bracket to hold the tank higher up and maybe a little forward? I don't quite remember how your setup is, but if its possible and not to difficult it might be a little more areodynamic?

Racer x · January 2nd, 2016, 09:29 PM

I was trying that and it would need to come way up and cause other problems. It is just to much of a fight. The flat tank is good but not great. I am finding to much work to convert this set up to the turbo. When I get the 2010 frame inindtalled I can still used all the other custom parts I have. I will just need to make another tank. That is less work than fighting the tank I have. It's a little frustrating. But not a big deal. I have plenty of 08 + tanks

Racer x · January 3rd, 2016, 08:52 AM

Putting together the 2010 frame set just makes things simple. At this point I don't need the extra work or expense of the frankenbike.

Racer x · January 3rd, 2016, 07:40 PM

I just checked the date on this thread. March 2013. That is when I started trying to build a turbo 250 ninja.
I have come so far off the beginning that I am using a different bike altogether.

It comes down to priorities. My nitrous bike is ready to go. I was on the starting line ready to run and the rain and oil and a crash and then time ran out. So my number one priority is running the nitrous bike.
At this point in the turbo build this is what is have.

2010 ninja 250 30000 miles stock engine.
Garth 285s turbo system with the oil system complete and all the air plumbing.
Ecotrons fuel injection system
Rx2 Koso dash
Clip on bars
Lower foot pegs
GP shifting.
Land speed racing front fender.
Land speed racing bodywork.( Optional)

I have a short list of things I need. And a long list of details that I just don't have time for. So this is where is will start or stop for now.

At least I know what I'm faced with.
Time / Money wise.

Somchai · January 3rd, 2016, 09:40 PM

Eric one thing as advice or just only reminder.
Please read the following link: http://www.4agte.nl/MAP-Sensor-Trick.10.0.html

Good luck for your project

bruce71198 · January 4th, 2016, 08:36 AM

Just out of curiosity, how much boost are you going to run?

Racer x · January 4th, 2016, 08:38 AM

Half bar. 7.5psi max. If I need more power I'll add nitrous. I can control 10 hp of nitrous with low boost and end up with good power and cool exhaust temp. Maybe��

HoneyBadgerRy · January 4th, 2016, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer x

Half bar. 7.5psi max. If I need more power I'll add nitrous. I can control 10 hp of nitrous with low boost and end up with good power and cool exhaust temp. Maybe��

I would think you would run more nitrous than that. I know there is a limit on the engine internals, but a 10hp shot seems so tiny.

Racer x · January 4th, 2016, 09:23 AM

More is better. But if I can get 25 from the engine then boost 1/2 bar. That could be close to 40 or 45 hp. Then ten more on top is pushing 60 hp. That is more than enough. If it all works maybe try for more. I'm very realistic about what comes off the rear wheel. I can run any amount of nitrous. But there are so many variables. Fuel type is the first thing that comes to mind.

bruce71198 · January 5th, 2016, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer x

Half bar. 7.5psi max. If I need more power I'll add nitrous. I can control 10 hp of nitrous with low boost and end up with good power and cool exhaust temp. Maybe��

Curios about the boost pressure over powering the valve spring, I decided to test a theory. They start leaking at 20PSI. Sorry about the crap photo

Racer x · January 5th, 2016, 10:54 AM

Interesting. When it's under pressure like that. Does it include atmospheric pressure. Like adding 5 psi of boost is 19 pounds at the valve?

bruce71198 · January 5th, 2016, 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer x

Interesting. When it's under pressure like that. Does it include atmospheric pressure. Like adding 5 psi of boost is 19 pounds at the valve?

Well that's a good question. Doesn't it make sense that atmospheric pressure is acting on the other side of the valve so this would be PSIG.

Racer x · January 5th, 2016, 12:20 PM

I need some beer and a napkin to figure out what is on the other side of the valve st 10000 rpm

bruce71198 · January 5th, 2016, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer x

I need some beer and a napkin to figure out what is on the other side of the valve st 10000 rpm

Which brings up another point, On the compression stroke cylinder pressure is well above what's in the intake tract, so the boost pressure probably wont open the intake valve. That leaves the exhaust, is there enough residual pressure left in the cylinder to counteract the boost pressure?

mgentz · January 5th, 2016, 01:02 PM

wouldn't the problem with the intake valve leaking be everywhere but the compression stroke? i.e. during times when the valve should be closed?

HoneyBadgerRy · January 5th, 2016, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Which brings up another point, On the compression stroke cylinder pressure is well above what's in the intake tract, so the boost pressure probably wont open the intake valve. That leaves the exhaust, is there enough residual pressure left in the cylinder to counteract the boost pressure?

Now don't take my word for this because I know nothing about turbos, but isn't the pressure before the turbo (hot side) greater that after the turbo (cold side) even when the waste gate is open?

bruce71198 · January 6th, 2016, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

Now don't take my word for this because I know nothing about turbos, but isn't the pressure before the turbo (hot side) greater that after the turbo (cold side) even when the waste gate is open?

A book could be written to answer that question. In basic terms a turbo is NOT a positive displacement air pump, its an variable displacement air pump. The RPM of the turbo is determined by engine load (the greater the load the more heat produced, the more heat the faster the turbo spins). The waste gate bypasses exhaust gas from before the turbine wheel to after it to reduce turbo RPM. A blow off valve can also be incorporated into the compressor side (intake side) of the system to bleed off excess pressurized air. That being said the pressure in the intake track prior to the intake valve (what i think your calling the hot side) can range from below atmosphere (vacuum as some call it) to whatever you have your boost pressure set to. Cylinder pressure (compression/power stroke) can range from 1000 to 3000 PSI depending on boost conditions.

HoneyBadgerRy · January 6th, 2016, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

A book could be written to answer that question. In basic terms a turbo is NOT a positive displacement air pump, its an variable displacement air pump. The RPM of the turbo is determined by engine load (the greater the load the more heat produced, the more heat the faster the turbo spins). The waste gate bypasses exhaust gas from before the turbine wheel to after it to reduce turbo RPM. A blow off valve can also be incorporated into the compressor side (intake side) of the system to bleed off excess pressurized air. That being said the pressure in the intake track prior to the intake valve (what i think your calling the hot side) can range from below atmosphere (vacuum as some call it) to whatever you have your boost pressure set to. Cylinder pressure (compression/power stroke) can range from 1000 to 3000 PSI depending on boost conditions.

I meant hot side as in exhaust before the turbo, and cold side as in intake after the turbo and before the carbs/throttle body.

bruce71198 · January 6th, 2016, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

I meant hot side as in exhaust before the turbo, and cold side as in intake after the turbo and before the carbs/throttle body.

In that case the answer is; it depends on engine load.

APEmike · January 15th, 2016, 12:26 PM

OEM springs are WEAK. Very weak. They kind of work for stock cams and stock rev ranges. Adding much more than that and they dont have the pressure to compensate for it. You should be able to shim them a bit if you are running stock cams, but I would not add much. .030" max. Past that you will need more angry springs. Also, that much power being generated your valves and valve seats will hate you.

Electronic M · January 23rd, 2016, 11:13 AM

Great build..................I am doing something similar, hybrid bike.................with a 998cc though..............slow progress.

https://youtu.be/wXeRZtGBXRE

Link to original page on YouTube.

July 1st, 2014, 07:46 AM	#282
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	Yes I did. It cost twice as much and has a lot more flow. It's a better turbo as a full blown ultimate system. My goal is high compression and low boost to race a high altitude of Bonneville. So I want under 1/2 bar. I want to see how the engine pushes this little turbo before going big turbo inter cooler. That alone cost more that the entire project. So it's a one step at a time thing. The turbo project will pick up again in October. __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

July 2nd, 2014, 01:05 AM	#285
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	Raceing the nitrous bike in September . And in Aufgust I am crew for a turbo 500 Honda that I expect to become the fastest 500cc motorcycle ever. Maybe. 210-215 mph __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

December 31st, 2015, 07:10 PM	#290
Somchai Freedom for Germany Location: This World Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.	Eric I wish you a great success with your project but much more than this all the best for your future. Happy new year to you and @all here with your families too
	2 out of 2 members found this post helpful.

January 2nd, 2016, 07:43 PM	#293
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	Well things were going well. Then I began to try to fit the turbo plumbing to the bike. The tank I have is built for a nitrous bike with carbs . So it is low in the frame. The stock tank is resting above the frame. With the custom tank there is no room for anything. I am going to have to go to the 2010 frame, seat and bodywork. I would otherwise have to redesign the tank and the turbo system And figure out the seat and bodywork. The 2010 bike is complete. So I am starting over sorta. __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

January 2nd, 2016, 09:29 PM	#295
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	I was trying that and it would need to come way up and cause other problems. It is just to much of a fight. The flat tank is good but not great. I am finding to much work to convert this set up to the turbo. When I get the 2010 frame inindtalled I can still used all the other custom parts I have. I will just need to make another tank. That is less work than fighting the tank I have. It's a little frustrating. But not a big deal. I have plenty of 08 + tanks __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

July 1st, 2014, 07:40 AM	#281
garth285 KAWASAKI GURU Name: Shawn Location: Florida Join Date: Jul 2013 Motorcycle(s): Turbo Ninja 250 Posts: 863	Question for ya, have you looked at any of the GT15 turbos instead of the VZ21?

July 1st, 2014, 07:52 AM	#283
garth285 KAWASAKI GURU Name: Shawn Location: Florida Join Date: Jul 2013 Motorcycle(s): Turbo Ninja 250 Posts: 863	Got ya, yeah I have been looking at them and a regular GT15 goes for $170 on flebay and another 60 for flanges, which isnt far away from the VZ21..... Now what I'm looking to maybe do is run a VNT turbo which if you haven't looked at those that may be a hot setup! I am familiar with them with turbo diesels and they have a set of vanes inside the exhaust housing to help spool the turbo faster but the GT1544V turbos are about $300. Up to $430 depending on model.... Hmmmmmmmmmmm

July 1st, 2014, 05:54 PM	#284
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	Ah what fun. @Racer x why the delay until Oct?

July 22nd, 2014, 01:55 AM	#286
SouthHalfrican ninjette.org member Name: Elrich Location: Lynchburg - VA Join Date: Jul 2014 Motorcycle(s): Ninja '07 250, '03 500, Ducati '01 M750, '03 999 base, 1198S corse, Honda 77CB750F2 Posts: 14	Great read. Interested in seeing what happens this October for you.

January 1st, 2016, 02:33 PM	#291
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	Happy new year! Can't wait to see what you come up with.

January 1st, 2016, 05:37 PM	#292
Dave Wolfe CCS Amateur #501 Name: Dave Location: Iowa Join Date: Jun 2015 Motorcycle(s): '09 250 SE 'Booger' Posts: 406	Welcome to Iowa, neighbor! Im up the road in Cedar Rapids.

January 3rd, 2016, 07:40 PM	#297
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	I just checked the date on this thread. March 2013. That is when I started trying to build a turbo 250 ninja. I have come so far off the beginning that I am using a different bike altogether. It comes down to priorities. My nitrous bike is ready to go. I was on the starting line ready to run and the rain and oil and a crash and then time ran out. So my number one priority is running the nitrous bike. At this point in the turbo build this is what is have. 2010 ninja 250 30000 miles stock engine. Garth 285s turbo system with the oil system complete and all the air plumbing. Ecotrons fuel injection system Rx2 Koso dash Clip on bars Lower foot pegs GP shifting. Land speed racing front fender. Land speed racing bodywork.( Optional) I have a short list of things I need. And a long list of details that I just don't have time for. So this is where is will start or stop for now. At least I know what I'm faced with. Time / Money wise. __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

January 3rd, 2016, 09:40 PM	#298
Somchai Freedom for Germany Location: This World Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R-FI Posts: A lot.	Eric one thing as advice or just only reminder. Please read the following link: http://www.4agte.nl/MAP-Sensor-Trick.10.0.html Good luck for your project
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

January 4th, 2016, 08:36 AM	#299
bruce71198 ninjette.org sage Name: bruce Location: northern illinois Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999	Just out of curiosity, how much boost are you going to run?

January 4th, 2016, 08:38 AM	#300
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	Half bar. 7.5psi max. If I need more power I'll add nitrous. I can control 10 hp of nitrous with low boost and end up with good power and cool exhaust temp. Maybe�� __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

January 4th, 2016, 09:23 AM	#302
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	More is better. But if I can get 25 from the engine then boost 1/2 bar. That could be close to 40 or 45 hp. Then ten more on top is pushing 60 hp. That is more than enough. If it all works maybe try for more. I'm very realistic about what comes off the rear wheel. I can run any amount of nitrous. But there are so many variables. Fuel type is the first thing that comes to mind. __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja Last futzed with by Racer x; January 4th, 2016 at 01:38 PM.

January 5th, 2016, 10:54 AM	#304
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	Interesting. When it's under pressure like that. Does it include atmospheric pressure. Like adding 5 psi of boost is 19 pounds at the valve? __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

January 5th, 2016, 12:20 PM	#306
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	I need some beer and a napkin to figure out what is on the other side of the valve st 10000 rpm __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

January 5th, 2016, 01:02 PM	#308
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	wouldn't the problem with the intake valve leaking be everywhere but the compression stroke? i.e. during times when the valve should be closed?

January 15th, 2016, 12:26 PM	#313
APEmike ninjette.org member Name: Michael Location: Tehachapi, CA Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 2014 Ninja 300 Posts: 160	OEM springs are WEAK. Very weak. They kind of work for stock cams and stock rev ranges. Adding much more than that and they dont have the pressure to compensate for it. You should be able to shim them a bit if you are running stock cams, but I would not add much. .030" max. Past that you will need more angry springs. Also, that much power being generated your valves and valve seats will hate you. __________________________________________________ I ride because therapy is too expensive, and less fun.
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

January 23rd, 2016, 11:13 AM	#314
Electronic M ninjette.org member Name: Dima Location: Midwest Join Date: Feb 2015 Motorcycle(s): zx10r Posts: 43	Great build..................I am doing something similar, hybrid bike.................with a 998cc though..............slow progress. https://youtu.be/wXeRZtGBXRE Link to original page on YouTube.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Turbo250.com - My Turbo Build Blog	garth285	2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk	319	June 19th, 2015 08:04 AM
My 07 250 cafe racer build	elephantman78	1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Farkles	12	December 25th, 2014 07:09 AM
My Cafe Racer Build	girlracer	1986 - 2007 Ninja 250R Farkles	17	December 2nd, 2014 08:14 AM
Racer X engine build thread	Racer x	2008 - 2012 Ninja 250R Tech Talk	189	June 12th, 2013 07:34 AM
I want to buy or build an 08+ 250R racer.	Seanslides	Ninjettes At Speed	20	March 1st, 2010 07:34 AM