Motorcyclist dies after rescue workers drop car on him

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Linuss

The only person at fault here is the old bag who ran over the rider in the first place.

I can't believe it. Linus actually agrees with me for once.

The article said it dropped four feet. It looked more like four inches to me.

Is it known for a fact that this was a ninjette? I didn't see anything in the articles about that.

Just guessing, but it looks like he lowsided trying to avoid her and the old bag ran him over instead of stopping.

IMHO, everyone, not just old f@rts, should have to pass a reflex and vision test every 10 years. Vision testing to make sure they can see bikers. Reflex testing to make sure they stop once they hit one.

[rockNroll]

The chocks were in place. Poor rider, RIP.

[Linuss]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I can't believe it. Linus actually agrees with me for once.

No, I came up with that opinion several days ago. It was just a coincidence

The article said it dropped four feet. It looked more like four inches to me.

This is why I NEVER believe anything a bystander tells me. Peoples view of time, distance, etc is distorted when they're freaking out.

Is it known for a fact that this was a ninjette? I didn't see anything in the articles about that.

When I first saw the video, it looked very much like my Ninjette. Never see a close-up though.

IMHO, everyone, not just old f@rts, should have to pass a reflex and vision test every 10 years. Vision testing to make sure they can see bikers. Reflex testing to make sure they stop once they hit one.

Screw it, make them do it every year. Also make everyone take a motorcycle safety / awareness class. Also test them on simulators.

And a billion other tests, so only those responsible enough to drive can.

Screw the rest, it's not worth the risk to my life for their convenience.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Linuss

Screw it, make them do it every year. Also make everyone take a motorcycle safety / awareness class. Also test them on simulators.

And a billion other tests, so only those responsible enough to drive can.

Screw the rest, it's not worth the risk to my life for their convenience.

Driving is a privilege, but voting is a right. It took over 10 years to get the mandatory eye test for over 80 year olds law in the state of Florida. The first state representative to suggest it got voted out of office for some reason. Old people vote too. Even now, all a blind person has to do is get their doctor to OK them for driving and their approved.

Personally I think voting should be a privilege too and only those that know what they are actually voting for should be allowed to do so.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Is it known for a fact that this was a ninjette? I didn't see anything in the articles about that.

Yup, it was a red ninjette. Looked like the '08/'10 red rather than the '09, but it's hard to be sure. One of the pics that used to be linked to that article showed it very clearly.

[Linuss]

Pause my video at 0:47. Clearly an 08/09 250. Look at the exhaust.

[DaBlue1]

I watched this video, then I noticed something....anyone else see this.

This from the video poster-"...@5oul3ater i see every thing the lady was on the wrong side of the road and turning the man realize an brake up the bike fling him right under the car the bike bounce right in to the car 2 sec second after and the car drag him right round ...

Wow.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

I watched this video, then I noticed something....anyone else see this.

This from the video poster-"...@5oul3ater i see every thing the lady was on the wrong side of the road and turning the man realize an brake up the bike fling him right under the car the bike bounce right in to the car 2 sec second after and the car drag him right round ...

Wow.

Its pretty hard to understand what they guy was saying, bit it sounds like she cut into the opposing lane to make a turn. It sends chills down my spine as about a week or two ago a guy did the same thing to me. I was lucky in that he saw me at the last minute and I got around him in the bicycle lane.

Sheesh, people like that should be ground up and fed to the dogs.

[CynicalC]

Watching the video - the car didn't roll forward, it shifted sideways. Just going by the video and nothing else, I have to side with the police saying that the motorcyclist died from injuries sustained during the accident, and not as a result of the car being dropped. It was a mistake, but I think that guy was done for before the car fell.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by Linuss

...Look at 4:55 when the car is dropped. It's clearly evident that the chocks are in place and the car doesn't drop all the way back down, and infact is still a decent ways above the riders head.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj00M...layer_embedded

The victims head is not the only problem. He is wedged under the suspension of the car. The car's suspension and possibly the exhaust is crushing his thorax and his head is under the body of the car. Even if you raise up the body of the car 4-6 inches, the suspension will still drop. The victims body was crushed by the weight of the car. Look at the difference in height of the rear tire on the right side and left side of the car before the rescuers show up.

Every Emergency responder knows when that car came down, that was it. Check out their reactions. The first EMT throws the spine board down in disgust. (*note* no need for a spine board or cervical collar for a dead man. Victim was still alive before the drop) Rider died on the scene. Hospital has to officially call it though. Notice the ambulance did not move right away. The hospital was about 5-6 minutes down the road.

[n4mwd]

The important thing to remember is that the fire guys didn't cause the accident the fat old hag did.

They tried to save the guy and unfortunately failed.

Before thy got there, there were dozens of people just standing around just gawking. They could have jacked up the car themselves or with that many people, simply lifted it off him.

If the fire guys are guilty of anything, then so are the gawkers.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

The important thing to remember is that the fire guys didn't cause the accident the fat old hag did.

They tried to save the guy and unfortunately failed.

Before thy got there, there were dozens of people just standing around just gawking. They could have jacked up the car themselves or with that many people, simply lifted it off him.

If the fire guys are guilty of anything, then so are the gawkers.

I agree they did try to save a life and the driver was at fault. However most bystanders or laymen are not aware of Tort Law nor are they properly educated on Advanced Emergency Medical Techniques. Even if the bystanders got the car off of him, there was nothing they could do past that point and might have done more harm than good. Most are afraid of being sued. In a case like this, no bystander or EMS Personnel would be or should be held accountable for anything.

[n4mwd]

I can't speak for other states, but in FL we have a Good Samaritan law that makes people who help in an emergency immune from any and all lawsuits. I'm not sure if it applies to EMS workers.

If they don't have such a law in NY, then it might have saved this kid???

[CThunder-blue]

In this case, I wouldn't have done anything either. Not because I wouldn't want to help, but how would you propose to lift the car off him without some special gear? I don't drive around with 2 floor jacks in my car and I'm guessing none of those people do either. In this case, you can't just lift the rear end up and have someone yank the rider out. Who would want to take the risk of further injuring the guy? We're taught to not touch anyone who's been in an accident because you could make things worse for the victim. I wouldn't put blame on the bystanders for not trying to help. The only thing I see that was crappy is how many people whipped out cameras to video tape the scene. I think serious moments like this should be treated with a little bit of dignity instead of a show.

[Linuss]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I can't speak for other states, but in FL we have a Good Samaritan law that makes people who help in an emergency immune from any and all lawsuits. I'm not sure if it applies to EMS workers.

If they don't have such a law in NY, then it might have saved this kid???

Good Samaritan laws don't pertain to EMS workers, and in some states (such as Texas) even if I'm off duty it doesn't protect me.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by CThunder-blue

In this case, I wouldn't have done anything either. Not because I wouldn't want to help, but how would you propose to lift the car off him without some special gear? ...

Well, only the rear half needed to be lifted. That's typically the lightest part of most cars. With 10 guys, just have them grab various parts of the rear of the car and lift. Its about 100# per guy. Using his legs, an average non-body builder male can easily lift 100#. So basically, lift the rear, walk it forward 4 feet (with the car out of gear and the front rolling), and set it back down.

If that didn't work, lift one side of the car (the side with his head) and throw a chock under it. You could use the fat hag that ran him over as a chock if you couldn't find anything better.

When you have a crushing situation like this, its imperative to remove the weight off the victim ASAP. The weight makes it next to impossible to breathe. So yes, if the gawkers had acted expediently, the kid might have survived.

[CZroe]

I really don't like the reporting on this.

That wasn't even remotely 4'
It was probably not going to save him anyway.
Returning for an item didn't cost him his life, the failure to yield from the other driver did.
The FDNY didn't cost him his life, the failure to yield from the other driver did.

"Motorcyclist dies after rescue workers drop car on him?" How about "Motorcyclist dies after being hit by a car." It can still mention the worker's attempts to extract him going badly, but think about how the guy got where he was and then try to imagine what was worse. It doesn't look like the suspension compressed much at all, which means he may have simply back where he started, and I HIGHLY doubt that the drop was the deciding factor in his death. There's some heresay about him being responsive before but not after, but they only said that it was a moan or two and they may have stopped at that point regardless.

[DaBlue1]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

...When you have a crushing situation like this, its imperative to remove the weight off the victim ASAP. The weight makes it next to impossible to breathe. So yes, if the gawkers had acted expediently, the kid might have survived.

If this was a simple crushing event, where he was wedged/pinned slightly (like something fell on him) then yes it potentially could have saved his life. However this victim was run over by the front of the car, dragged and then crushed. It makes this scenario a little more difficult to judge. The internal injuries alone reduces his prognosis. Without Advance Life Support on hand immediately after the removal of the weight, the victim could have died anyway from broken bones being flexed back into and puncturing vital organs. Removing weight off a victim in this situation needs intervention and stabilization by EMS (assessment, airway adjuncts, C-collar, BP monitoring, oxygen administration). His window for survival was short. From what I can tell from the video, it appears to be evidence of blood or some type of fluid near the victims head and rear tire and the helmet is twisted on his head. (victim is on his stomach and his helmet is almost pointing up). If it was blood, that is a sign of massive internal injuries.

The upside if they did manage to lift the car and stabilize it prior to EMS arrival is, it would have saved EMS 11 minutes. More than enough time to get him to the ER.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by DaBlue1

The upside if they did manage to lift the car and stabilize it prior to EMS arrival is, it would have saved EMS 11 minutes. More than enough time to get him to the ER.

The fluid looked more like coolant from the bike to me.

In many cases its best just to leave them there and wait, but not when there is an imminent threat to life. In this case, there would have been a serious concern for his ability to breathe. His body was lifting the car slightly so we know his body was bearing the weight of it. Also, the car on top of him would make it impossible to perform CPR or any other emergency measure.

In any emergency, remember your ABC's:
A-Airway
B-Breathing
C-Circulation

Nothing else matters until those things are stable. His airway was probably compromised by the twisting of his neck. His breathing was similarly compromised by that and the weight of the vehicle. His circulation may have been similarly compromised by internal bleeding.

But after saying all that, lets not lose sight of the fact that neither the gawkers nor the firemen caused the accident - it was an old hag that shouldn't have been driving in the first place.

[nickjpass]

Makes me rethink motorcycling.

[ChaosFromAbove]

jesus...FDNY really ****ed up this time...NEVER EVER should you be using spreaders to get a car off the ground, they don't have a wide enough base to stay stable, as u saw...this really pisses me off, they are a rescue company and have access to a crap ton cribbing (4x4s) and airbags (rubber squares that get filled with air that are meant to be used for this purpose) i see a lawsuit in the near future...

I swear...the FDNY does some stupid ****...and this is one of them.

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by Linuss

Good Samaritan laws don't pertain to EMS workers, and in some states (such as Texas) even if I'm off duty it doesn't protect me.

It's actually much more complicated than that, and it varies from state to state. If you aren't medically trained, most of the time being a good samaritan simply means calling 911. If you perform first aid incorrectly, or outside the scope of your training and mess up, chances are you will be held liable. It's a good idea for everyone to familiarize themselves with the concepts of imminent peril, consent & implied consent.

[sombo]

From the looks of the second video it looks like the rushed to lift the car a little too much without properly setting it up. I've seen those airbags inflate and they don't really take that much time. I think in this case they made a bad judgment call and made a bad situation worse by using the wrong tool and moving too quickly. But that's just my opinion.

I also agree that the old lady is at fault and should get more of a punishment then she did. But this is what plagues the US when concerning motorcycles. For some reason in this country especially it seems as if we motorcyclists are looked upon as sub-human, not worthy of protection in the eyes of the law. It's a sad thing and people keep getting hurt in more than just physical ways from this "battle".

Personally I think that everyone should have to retake the driving test every 5 or 10 years. I say this because in studies done by GMAC with their annual drivers test survey, they had some scary numbers about drivers. Here's a link to a recent article on it. Honestly, if that many people are failing in the surveys, we really should start retesting and revoking if they don't pass. But again, that's just my opinion.

[jdoucet93]

Originally Posted by ungluck

ebrake is in the rear..they jacked the rear up..the hydraulic lift they used wasnt secured under the car..it fell off...


****** ****** deal. what a tragedy

That car is front wheel drive. All they had to do was make sure it was in park and all of this would have been avoided...

[CynicalC]

Originally Posted by jdoucet93

That car is front wheel drive. All they had to do was make sure it was in park and all of this would have been avoided...

The car shifted sideways, not forward.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

Makes me rethink motorcycling.

Hopefully not longer than a nanosecond. In spite of airbags and seat belts, people get killed in cars all the time too.

A few years ago, down the street from me, a dirt hauling dump truck hit a pickup truck head on. The result was that the pickup driver was only scratched and the dump truck driver was killed in spite of having a 25000# advantage.

Also, in Taiwan, a cargo van driver fell asleep and crossed the line and hit a sport biker head on. The sport biker got launched over the van and came in for a landing on the other side. He was in full leathers and gear and walked away with only minor injuries. Meanwhile, the van driver had the steering wheel shoved through his heart by the impact and was killed instantly.

The bottom line is: "Sh!t Happens. When its your time, its your time."

In cases like this one, it wasn't the rider's fault, but we can use what happened to him as a learning experience to try and figure out what we could do to avoid the accident if we have a similar riding experience.

We know for a fact that the rider did something in response to the old hag being on the wrong side of the road that caused him to end up under the car. So if the old hag does that to you, what would be a plausible avenue of escape?

[sarapacman99]

Originally Posted by Lil_Green_Demon

RIP


This might offend someone but I'll post it any way:

Elderly people should not be allowed to drive...


Or if they truly still can, they should take another driver's test to see if they have the capabilities to handle a car at such an old age.

Or they get chauffeured around and they pay part of their social security checks. This creates jobs, prevents elderly people making traffic mistakes, and prevents accidents like this from happening any further.

[nickjpass]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Hopefully not longer than a nanosecond. In spite of airbags and seat belts, people get killed in cars all the time too.

A few years ago, down the street from me, a dirt hauling dump truck hit a pickup truck head on. The result was that the pickup driver was only scratched and the dump truck driver was killed in spite of having a 25000# advantage.

Also, in Taiwan, a cargo van driver fell asleep and crossed the line and hit a sport biker head on. The sport biker got launched over the van and came in for a landing on the other side. He was in full leathers and gear and walked away with only minor injuries. Meanwhile, the van driver had the steering wheel shoved through his heart by the impact and was killed instantly.


In cases like this one, it wasn't the rider's fault, but we can use what happened to him as a learning experience to try and figure out what we could do to avoid the accident if we have a similar riding experience.

We know for a fact that the rider did something in response to the old hag being on the wrong side of the road that caused him to end up under the car. So if the old hag does that to you, what would be a plausible avenue of escape?

I still want a ninjette! But I agree,

The bottom line is: "Sh!t Happens. When its your time, its your time."

That's going to be added to my signature

[jdoucet93]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

The car shifted sideways, not forward.

Ahh I see it now. Good point.

[Toly]

It's hard to say from the video, but as someone pointed out here, the poor guy has probably lowsided and that's how he ended up being run over by the car. The alternative actions don't look too promising either. What could have been done differently? Meet her head-on? Screech the brakes and jump off the bike, onto the hood or away from the car?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Toly

It's hard to say from the video, but as someone pointed out here, the poor guy has probably lowsided and that's how he ended up being run over by the car. The alternative actions don't look too promising either. What could have been done differently? Meet her head-on? Screech the brakes and jump off the bike, onto the hood or away from the car?

If there are no better options, head on is viable for passenger cars. The goal would be to fly over the vehicle. A last second jump straight up might help. I can't say I've ever tried that though.

In a situation like this, if the driver sees you and stops, then go right. If not, go left. Left has the danger that the driver will suddenly realize he's in the wrong lane and suddenly jerk the car back. It also has a high risk of putting you in the path of other vehicles.

I've been studying motorcycle accidents for a while and I can say that the best course of action would be one that avoids putting the rider under the wheels of another vehicle. When that happens, its almost always fatal.

[Linuss]

Originally Posted by CynicalC

If you perform first aid incorrectly, or outside the scope of your training and mess up, chances are you will be held liable.

Actually, the vast majority of the time (unless you have some liberal Californian judge), if you are able to be covered under the Good Samaritan law, you can ONLY be held liable if you are ALSO held negligent, or willfull / wanton recklessness.


Honestly, speaking as someone who has to deal with the "Do Gooders" fairly often, the only care I want a non-medically trained person providing is putting pressure on a bleeding wound and CPR.



I've had to order, with threat of arrest by a LEO, more than my fair share of "Good Samaritans". It gets old.

[Jinx250]

I didn't see this posted anywhere, so I'll post it here. Watching the video, the bike sure looks like a 250.

The video is not "graphic" per se, and I would like to find out the full story before passing judgment.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/b...-rss&FEEDNAME=

[rusninja]

we had the video linked a while back. :S

[rusninja]

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=84755

[Jinx250]

Search impaired.

[rusninja]

Its ok i wouldnt know how to search it, i just scrolled from a few pages because i remembered seeing it a while ago.

[Jinx250]

Coming from someone who HAS done extrications, I have to say that I think the person who used the spreader made a bad call. There is not a lot on cars in that rear section to brace against like on the side where there's a frame rail. Fortunately there was sufficient cribbing placed under the fram already to prevent the car from doing what everyone claims was done (dropping onto the rider and crushing him). It's easy to second guess after the fact, absolutely. And the rescue guys were only doing what they thought was right, absolutely. And they should have used the airbags as a first option, absolutely. The spreaders are not meant to be used like that while the airbags are.

[ironglory]

"Wow... it's kind of hard to believe how uneducated (I'm just assuming, here) these paramedics/firemen were about cars"


Just imagine the clearance there is under the carriage of a regular car, there isnt much room in there. The situation was just aggravated by the dragging of 30 ft. What the rescuers have or havent done is irrelevant to the secondary fact - dragging.

[GreenNinja]

Originally Posted by nickjpass

Makes me rethink motorcycling.

Yeah, reading about moments like this makes it almost not worth the risk. Lately, I've experienced problems with people who aren't even close to kicking the bucket yet. Most of my oh sh!t moments have been with young female college students who are in a hurry and don't stop at stop signs.
I remember reading about guy that died on a Florida beach running - a plane crashed on him while he was jogging.If you are afraid of everything then you will experience nothing. Ride safe and live well my fellow riders. I really hope to read less of these type of stories as more people pick up motorcycle riding.