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Old November 24th, 2018, 06:39 AM   #1
Karman
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Running very slightly rich

Hello all, so I added 3 washers under each needle, kn filter with the snorkle delete. Bike seems much better day and night difference... my question is

Will removing the CAT in the exhaust help to lean out the system? Even if it only leans it out 1% do the fellow forum people believe it will achieve a leaning out effect? Thanks I appreciate your opinions

I have a slip on exhaust just looking for easy ways to lean out the system a Touch.. if anyone else has any other suggestions other than removing a washer.
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Old November 24th, 2018, 07:58 AM   #2
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MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
I was going to say remove a washer. 3 is plenty, and not usually necessary. Have you precisely adjusted your Idle Mixture?

If it has carbs I didn't think it had a CAT in the exhaust, but any time you increase exhaust flow it will effect the mixture.

Why do you think it's rich? With no snorkel and a K&N I wouldn't expect it to be rich with the stock Main Jet.
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Old November 24th, 2018, 08:24 AM   #3
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Thank you for your response! The bike is running well, at idle on cold start the idle is bouncing ever so slightly. Also when I rev it it will go just below idle then come up to idle. I am aware there is no cat in the exhaust... however I was referring to the cat up near the engine or the header. Seems there is a small cat right after the y pipe coming out of the engine.
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Old November 24th, 2018, 08:47 AM   #4
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MOTM - Jun '18, Oct '16
If you haven't, I would make adjustments to the Idle mixture.

https://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do...dle_mixture%3F

...and remove a shim...
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Old November 24th, 2018, 08:53 AM   #5
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If I remove a washer I think thereís a chance itíll be too lean, as Iím not overalls rich as is... do you think I can adjust the idle adjustment screws while the carbs are still in the bike? With only the fairings removed? Thanks!
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Old November 24th, 2018, 10:04 AM   #6
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You need to diagnose and relate the rich condition to the particular throttle position where it occurs, that will dictate which circuit is overfueling.

did you increase the size of your pilot jets as well as shimming the needles? With giant main jets?

Overfueling condition can be directly attributed to poor setup/jetting decisions (more fuel is better....everywhere....(NOT)

I divert, anyway you need to isolate the offending circuit and @jkv45 is on the money...pilot screw adjustment is a required, standard tuning procedure.

I'd advise to adjust the pilot screws first...progress from there.

Syncing with an accurate, precise pro manometer too.
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Old November 24th, 2018, 10:53 AM   #7
Karman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
You need to diagnose and relate the rich condition to the particular throttle position where it occurs, that will dictate which circuit is overfueling.

did you increase the size of your pilot jets as well as shimming the needles? With giant main jets?

Overfueling condition can be directly attributed to poor setup/jetting decisions (more fuel is better....everywhere....(NOT)

I divert, anyway you need to isolate the offending circuit and @jkv45 is on the money...pilot screw adjustment is a required, standard tuning procedure.

I'd advise to adjust the pilot screws first...progress from there.

Syncing with an accurate, precise pro manometer too.
Everything is stock except,

shimming needles, snorkel delete, kn air filter and kleen air system delete.
Itís so cold out so Iím not able to test the bike fully..but starting it does require choke (which is a good sign I guess) and it revs smoothly all the way up and immediately returns to idle 1,100 rpm when cold...hopefully tomorrow I will get to ride and see if there are any hiccups.. any thing I should look out for? Thanks everyone for their help once again!
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Old November 24th, 2018, 10:58 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Karman View Post
Everything is stock except,

shimming needles, snorkel delete, kn air filter and kleen air system delete.
Itís so cold out so Iím not able to test the bike fully..but starting it does require choke (which is a good sign I guess) and it revs smoothly all the way up and immediately returns to idle 1,100 rpm when cold...hopefully tomorrow I will get to ride and see if there are any hiccups.. any thing I should look out for? Thanks everyone for their help once again!
For some odd reason it seems to have a smoother idle etc compared to yesterday right after I made those mods.. maybe the ecu adjusted slightly?
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Old November 24th, 2018, 01:37 PM   #9
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MOTM - Nov '17
Starting with no-choke in your current atmospheric conditions indicate a VERY rich condition, not just slightly.

No ECU adjustments are possible. There's no sensors that detect operating conditions (no AFM/MAP/MAF or EGT or ECT or IAT or wideband-O2 or knock-sensors), and no chips that can store temporary data for adjustments. Inconsistent, variable behavior is typically sign of unclean carbs. You need to make sure your carbs are completely clean and factory-fresh as a baseline before starting any mods. Otherwise you're compensating for symptoms and after-effects of non-factory conditions.

Newgen (2008-2012) bike is already super-rich from factory. Here's what I have on my race bike:

- Tyga full-exhaust, no cat, Tyga free-flow muffler
- K&N filter
- snorkel removed

All this produces +22% more air-flow than stock and generates +22% more power and guess what? It's still rich with factory jetting (as you've discovered). Dyno-testing with Spears Racing (sponsor) gave best results with going to smaller main-jets than factory. Down from factory 98 to 96, even 94 in summer.


If you read people's reports over time, you'll find that they get stumbling and mis-behaving as time passes. So they put bigger jets into their carbs and the problem is fixed right? But couple years later, they get stumbling again and put even larger and larger jets in to fix. Problem here isn't that carbs are setup lean originally and gets leaner and leaner over time. It's because their carb's fuel-circuits are getting clogged with dried fuel! The solution is to completely disassemble the carbs, clean out all jets with wire, soak entire carbs with real cleaners that'll take skin off nuclear subs, dunk in ultrasonic cleaner for days, soda-blast all fuel-circuits with 10000psi to clean and clear.

The issue isn't that carbs are lean, as implied by "solution" of bigger jets. That's just monkeying around with symptoms of real problem of carbs not being factory-clean. They ran perfectly when leaving the factory, and they should run perfectly fine with factory configuration when things are factory-fresh clean. I've had carbs on my pre-gen and new-gen 250s refurbished to factory-fresh clean condition by ducatiman and they run perfectly fine in stock configuration. I've even downsized jets on all of them to improve power and performance.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; November 24th, 2018 at 03:42 PM.
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Old November 24th, 2018, 03:16 PM   #10
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MOTM - Nov '18, Mar '17
@Karman-

I'm in the Northeast, too and the last thing I'd do right now is ride. Way too cold. I put my stuff away by Dec 1 nowadays.

How did the bike run in its stock form, before your mods?


@DannoXYZ only 10,000 PSI to clean?

Agree the common compulsion to overjet is misguided. Bigger is not necessarily better.
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Old November 24th, 2018, 03:36 PM   #11
Karman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
@Karman-

I'm in the Northeast, too and the last thing I'd do right now is ride. Way too cold. I put my stuff away by Dec 1 nowadays.

How did the bike run in its stock form, before your mods?


@DannoXYZ only 10,000 PSI to clean?

Agree the common compulsion to overjet is misguided. Bigger is not necessarily better.
I agree it is too cold to ride, however I just got my endorsement on November 3rd and the bike a couple days before so I am using any day above 45 degrees to ride short distances under 10 miles or so...

Iíll be leaving for active duty in the army around end janurary so want to get in as much riding as I can in before I leave. The bike was a pain to start up, took about ten or more cranks with full choke warmed up itíd mostly start on first try. Riding I didnít notice anything lots of backfiring but that was probably due to aftermarket exhaust. I think deleting the KLEEN system has solved the overly excessive backfiring it seems like it as I donít hear any on revenge it while in neutral. Iíll be able to ride some around since itíll get upto 49f here. Might be the last time of the end of the year. anything to lookout for as symptoms would be helpful. Thanks a lot guys this forum is friendly as heck
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Old November 24th, 2018, 04:06 PM   #12
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MOTM - Nov '17
yeah, there's great group here!

It's down in low-'30s at night here and I ride year round. The fuel-injected CBR starts up instantly on 1st-crank when I push the button and just hums waiting for me to hop on. But it's little heavier than I'd like for cutting through commuter traffic. So I take the Ninja 250R most of the time. I find keeping it in garage really helps and if not, even bike cover helps it from getting too cold and getting frost built-up.
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Old November 24th, 2018, 04:58 PM   #13
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@Karman friendly? Nah, we're actually a bunch o' pricks and posers. jk.

Hey, if you are leaving for duty in January, be sure to prep for long term storage. rest assured, without a fuel stabilizer,you're gonna return to clogged carbs and rotted fuel in the tank.

In another thread I suggested Stabil 360 Marine. I've had real good results, both in my 2 FI (Honda VFR and SS800 Duc) and carbed, older Ducati 900ss.

Wal-Mart has, about $8 per bottle, just 1/2 oz per tankful...prior to putting it away..1 oz would be ok. Run it in to the carbs by riding a good 20-30 minutes. Fill the tank...*use the center stand* and follow the rest of the normal storage protocol.

The reason I suggest center stand...the carb bowls are linked...if tilted on the sidestand...some fuel will inevitably migrate (via gravity) from the RH to the LH carb. I much prefer to keep them at equal/ fixed levels, not prone to gravitational forces.

Some folks prefer to drain the bowls, while cranking at various throttle positions, petcock turned to OFF (or fuel line clamped). This tends to clear the carb passageways of fuel...this fully acceptable too.

Either method may just save a carb pull/clean upon your return.
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Last futzed with by ducatiman; November 25th, 2018 at 09:12 AM.
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Old November 24th, 2018, 05:38 PM   #14
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@Karman friendly? Nah, we're actually a bunch o' pricks and posers.
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Old November 24th, 2018, 08:34 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karman View Post

I’ll be leaving for active duty in the army around end janurary so want to get in as much riding as I can in before I leave. The bike was a pain to start up, took about ten or more cranks with full choke warmed up it’d mostly start on first try.
Thank you for your service and commitment!

My youngest son is heading to Basic in January.

As ducatiman noted, be sure to add stabilizer to the fuel (87 without ethanol or whatever you can get without ethanol) and ride a bit to circulate it. Fill the tank to the top.

I like to drain the floatbowls as well. Changing the oil and filter before storage is always the best move, especially if it may be sitting a while.

Getting the idle mixture set exactly right will help with starting and idling. Set the idle speed to 1300 when fully warm after getting the mixture set. The setting will change with air temp and fuel blend.

Do any other basic maintenance now so it's ready to go when you are.
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Old November 24th, 2018, 11:48 PM   #16
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No centrestand on new-gen bikes...
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Old November 25th, 2018, 09:16 AM   #17
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then chock the ss with wood, achieving as close to level, while maintaining a safe stance to prevent accidental knockover.

a rear prop stand.....or become inventive...whatever it takes....or don't bother at all ....your choice.
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Old November 30th, 2018, 05:29 PM   #18
Karman
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then chock the ss with wood, achieving as close to level, while maintaining a safe stance to prevent accidental knockover.

a rear prop stand.....or become inventive...whatever it takes....or don't bother at all ....your choice.
Thank you once again, everyone. Iíve acquired a rear spool stand and I plan to use that with wood underneath the front tire. Now I donít know if itís reasonable to swap tires before I leave or wait until after I get back to the bike.. around late March
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Old December 1st, 2018, 08:33 AM   #19
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Quote:
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Thank you once again, everyone. Iíve acquired a rear spool stand and I plan to use that with wood underneath the front tire. Now I donít know if itís reasonable to swap tires before I leave or wait until after I get back to the bike.. around late March
I like the freshest tires possible, so I'd personally wait.

My son needs a new Q3 rear tire for his R6 (got about 3000 mi tops out of the last one...), but I'm recommending he waits to see what he will be doing and where he will be after he completes Basic. It may be sitting for a while.
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