Pregen Ricor Intiminator install

[choneofakind]

I just pulled the trigger and ordered a set of 39mm Ricor Intiminators under suggestion from @InvisiBill.

Ricor suggests installation following the instructions posted here by Cuong. I'm hoping I get more instructions in the package, and I will attempt to get them posted here if/when I get them.

Now, my question is: if I switch to 5W oil like Ricor suggests, the intent is to get thin enough oil that the stock damper holes are not creating any significant damping under compression, allowing the intiminator to be the only thing controlling compression damping. However, would this not remove the rebound damping almost entirely? I'm happy with my stock rebound damping with stock 10W oil. I think I'd like to initially try my install with just the intimiator and stock oil. Would that cause any significant issues or is it worth the try? If it turns out that I have too much compression damping, I'll be able to swap to 5W oil and I will only have changed one variable at a time. I believe that stuffing the intiminator into my fork will displace some fork oil, meaning that it will effectively raise the oil height and add some amount of resistance to bottoming out during hard braking. Using that logic, at least keeping the amount of oil required for stock height in a stock fork should be alright.

Let me know your thoughts, I'll keep this thread updated with my progress as I go.

[InvisiBill]

I just got a printout of those instructions with mine, nothing further. While there seems to be some room for improvement, they're sort of billed as a drop-in cure-all for your suspension woes, so there's not much info included other than the basic installation steps.

There were people (mostly track riders) who thought the rebound was too much. They had better luck going to something slightly heavier, like 7.5W. I'm no expert (I just followed their dummy instructions), but the 10W might give too much rebound damping. The 5W seems to be ok for most street riders, but it's definitely something you can play with for tweaking your suspension. The heavier oil would still have an effect on compression damping with the shims too, I believe.

They say you don't need to modify the damper rods (as you do with emulators), but someone pointed out that high speed damping is based on the oil's density rather than viscosity, so even the thinner oil could still cause some interference if you leave the stock damper rod holes. For best performance of the Intiminator and less chance of weirdness if playing with oil weights for rebound, you should drill out the stock holes (not sure if you already did that for emulators). I installed mine the lazy way, but plan to drill out the holes when I next have the forks apart.

The Intiminators do add volume/height to the fork. You set the new oil height after the Intiminators are installed, and you need to trim your spacer (assuming it's currently set properly) to make up for the thickness of the Intiminator. If you wanted to try them with the existing oil, you could just siphon off enough oil to drop the level back down to what it was, after adding the Intiminators (i.e. if it goes up 1/4", suck off 1/4" with a baster to drop it back down to whatever it previously was).

[choneofakind]

Install phase one done!

Preload spacers need to be cut by 15mm. That's the thickness of the portion of the intiminator that's adding to the spacer.

Even using the stock 10w oil, improvement is noted immediately. I basically plopped them in to see what the change was.

The good: BRAKING! The forks don't just collapse under hard braking. Getting the rear off the ground without feeling like you're going to tuck the nose? no problem. Cornering feedback is much better and gives you confidence. The front feels solid and feels like you can really rail on it because you feel everything the tire is doing.

The decent: the intiminator does a decent job of blowing off for fast compression and bigger sharp hits. I can tell it smoothes out over bigger chucks and bumps.

the bad: definitely small bump compliance. I think this falls under the awkward medium speed compression category. not quite the stiff slow compression during braking, not quite the plush high speed compression when you hit a bump.

The results: I like it, but I think it's a tad too stiff for around town. Once you get to a curvy section and start carving, it's awesome, if not a bit race-track-y. I think I'll try the 5w oil like Ricor suggested; I think this might be the best balance after all. Who would have thought, the suggestion was made for a reason Still a good experiment in the name of science!

[InvisiBill]

Thanks for testing them out with the 10W. It'll be a tad more work overall to change the oil later (as opposed to just doing everything right off the bat), but it'll give you and us something to compare to.

It could definitely be the oil making it feel a bit too stiff. I only noticed my forks (previously upgraded with springs of the proper rate) getting better after installing the Intiminators. With the stock setup, I could literally feel every seam in the pavement, even just the slightest line. Upgrading the springs helped a ton, and the Intiminators seemed to smooth things out even more. Now, the largest frost heaves feel like the minor seams did on the stock setup. Once again, I followed their dummy instructions and just dropped them in and changed to the 5W AMSOil Shock Therapy they sell.

Originally Posted by Ricor

We have found that a lighter sprung bike with more dampening works better. The same thing on race cars, or off road cars. We are introducing an extreme amount of low speed dampening to the system. Damper rods, stock, have almost no low speed dampening then too much high speed. That is why they feel too soft and harsh at the same time. With a typical damper rod system the spring is more of a crutch and much more critical to the overall performance of the system. Our system allows a wider variety of spring rates to be used effectively.

If they're already adding a ton of low-speed damping, the heavier oil could definitely be having a major effect. I'm interested to hear your thoughts after changing the oil weight. This statement may also mean that people would want to consider buying a slightly softer spring than they otherwise would. Whether or not it's actually needed, the Intiminators seem to be able to work well with a wider range of springs than the stock setup at least.

Keep in mind that they use shims just like a real cartridge fork, so you can tune them quite a bit if you want to. They sell a special tool to get the Intiminators apart, as well as packs of different shims. You might have to work backward from the non-adjustable rebound (via oil weight), then work out the shims to work well with whatever weight you decided on. I'd love to tinker with them, but at this point I don't think I have a good enough feel for good vs. bad or what I'd need to change to achieve whatever results I was going for.

I don't have the link handy, but there was also a Harley guy who machined out the inertia valve part to flow more and sooner. The idea was that normal operation wasn't affected, but it could flow more for large jolts, making the amazingness of the Intiminators even more amazing.

While it's not quite a Cadillac, my bike definitely has a very smooth ride now, while still being firm when it has to perform. Upgrading my suspension is definitely the best thing I've done to my bike. With the VRossi wheels and Pilot Powers, I'm really liking how it feels now.

[choneofakind]

Oh! I've already found that link in my google searching actually. He had a really great write-up.

I'm actually (according to the calc) supposed to be using 0.65 springs, and am using 0.585, so it sounds like I'm in a good spot with ricor's tuning.

[choneofakind]

So I bought some 5W oil. I'll be working tonight and tomorrow to get that installed.

Fun note: I know for a fact now that the rebound damping is too stiff. Know how? The tire wear. Check out the cool slanted scuffing on the edge of where my tire was contacting the ground, even after some basic curvy roads. This is only after 30 miles or so, imagine what that slanty line would look like after a couple hundred!

According to my google-fu, that means my rebound damping is too slow. I'll get new 5W oil in, and I've got plans to get tires changed as well, so we'll get to check out my tire wear to see how the valving in these intiminators works at a mixture of curvy roads and track time in July.

[choneofakind]

So, 5W oil is in. Oil height is 135mm, as suggested to be okay by this article:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/How_do_...Fork_oil_level

my old oil was pretty ookie. Right now the wheels are off the bike, waiting to get new rubber put on, so there's been no test riding. I'll report back whenever I get the chance.

[choneofakind]

5w oil in, new tires on, bounced it around the garage a bit.

Initial impressions: rebound feels much faster, as does slow compression from my weight bouncing on the bike. This might be the right setup!

[choneofakind]

This looks like a useful link. I'll post it here for ease of finding it. Instructions for modding the intiminator, with pictures.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=486633


Today I've made progress. I opened the forks again, trimmed 5mm of preload spacer (wasn't getting the right amount of sag before) and I shaved about 1mm off the plastic sealing ring that sits on the outside of the intiminator. Much better small movement of the fork with noticeably less stiction. The ride still had a little bit of oscillation on flat road while cruising at 35-ish, but the oscillation was much more rounded and less jarring. I think I should shave a little bit more off the seal, but not much.

I read into the above link, and I might start doing some of the dis-assembly and modding of the intiminator if my mods to the plastic rings don't get the desired result. So far, I love the slow damping while braking, I love the high speed compliance, and the mid-speed is good enough to live with (I'd call it about 95%) as a DD. I love how I can actually feel what the front end is doing without being too harsh over bumps, even while leaned. Even with a brand new set of tires that get squirrely when you lean onto a new section that hasn't been scuffed yet, you know exactly what the tire is doing and feel everything.

Once I up the pace a little, I'll let you know more. If I can get rid of the weird oscillations due to stiction, these are pretty damn good for a drop-in part that you can set and forget. For very little effort, these will make a stock front end better by leaps and bounds. Not perfect, but much better.

[InvisiBill]

Did you have emulators before? I'm curious if your damper rods are drilled out, and also just as a comparison between the two products.

I noticed a bit of friction when sliding my Intiminators down, but it didn't seem excessive (I also have 37mm forks on the 500, like the NewGen). I wouldn't want to trim it too much and lose the seal.

[choneofakind]

Nope, forks are completely stock. Only parts that aren't stock are the springs, intiminators, and spacers. The plastic ring trimming was very useful.

on a related note: to remove the intiminators from the fork, go to sears and get yourself a 24" long 4-claw automotive grabber tool. Very useful.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Nope, forks are completely stock. Only parts that aren't stock are the springs, intiminators, and spacers. The plastic ring trimming was very useful.

After reading that high-speed damping is based on the oil's density rather than viscosity, I plan to drill my damper rods out (I bought a set of bent forks cheap specifically to steal the rods). I left them alone for the initial install, half as an experiment like yours with the oil, and half because I was too lazy to tear into the forks when I could get away with not doing it. I'm wondering if/how much the stock parts are limiting the Intiminators.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

on a related note: to remove the intiminators from the fork, go to sears and get yourself a 24" long 4-claw automotive grabber tool. Very useful.

And they just happen to be on sale for $4. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00941322000P The Intiminators slid well enough in my forks that I was able to use one of those telescoping magnetic rods to get the top of the Intiminator. Also mentioned in your link is to put a washer under the top nut of the Intiminator to make it easier to grab.


And just to have the info available, http://www.hdforums.com/forum/tourin...rk-better.html is the thread I was thinking of.

[b.miller123]

Is there a reason why you went with these over the racetech emulators?

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by b.miller123

Is there a reason why you went with these over the racetech emulators?

I personally did it on my bike because the Intiminators seem like a more sophisticated solution.

My understanding of the RT emulators is that the standard compression damping is still controlled by passing the fork oil through plain old fixed hole(s) in the emulator body. Additionally, it has the bypass to allow for more flow on bigger bumps where the standard fixed orifices can't flow enough to allow for the bump. You can tweak the spring rate and preload to adjust how the bypass reacts, but it seems to me that you're getting the same basic damping system, with a fairly low-tech overflow.

The Intiminators use a shim stack (like fancy new forks) for the main compression damping. For the overflow, it has an "inertia valve", which is a spring-loaded valve connected to the lower half of the unit. This allows the valve to open when the wheel bumps up (the inertia of the cover keeps it in place while the inner unit bumps up to reveal the openings) but stay closed when the chassis is pushing down on the forks (the whole unit is pushed down, so the openings stay covered).

The way I see it, the Intiminators have a "bump bypass" valve that should activate only by wheel movement, whereas the emulators have a "high pressure bypass" valve that will activate whenever the spring pressure is overcome, regardless of which direction(s) the force is coming from. On top of that, the emulators seem to be replicating the crappy damper rods for basic damping while the Intiminators are actually replacing it with improved technology.

I sold my emulators before I installed them (to fund the Intiminator purchase), so I can't give any direct comparison of the two. From what I've read, either one is a huge improvement over stock, and I think there are a lot more people with emulator experience to get them set up very well. I think the Intiminators could be more tunable, if people want to take the time to learn something new.

For the visual learners, here are a couple pics from the HD thread. http://www.hdforums.com/forum/attach...r-100_0824.jpg is sort of an exploded view of the components. The brass piece is the inertia valve collar that opens/closes the bypass valve. http://www.hdforums.com/forum/attach...r-100_1169.jpg shows how the bypass valve works. The pen is pushing down the spring-loaded inertia valve collar (steel instead of brass on this one). Normally it would be held up against the top by the spring, covering the holes near the pen. When you hit a bump and the lower fork jolts upward, the center part with the holes also jolts upward (since it's sitting on the lower fork) while the cover's inertia keeps it in the same place (since it's only held there by the spring), exposing the holes as shown in the pic. The fluid deflecting collar at the top is flipped over for the pic just to make things easier to see.

[choneofakind]

^right there. I thought it was cool that they acted more like fancy stuff with the shim stack.

Plus they don't *require* drilling the damper rods, and it was too tempting to pass. I read a bunch and saw that they're somewhat adjustable so I was sold. Very improved with minimal work, and potential to be even better from the work others have done.

[ninja2007]

Are you still liking these?

I keep putting them in my shopping cart on their website, and putting it off for another week or two...

Are they good on the highway? I've got a lot of tar snakes down where I ride.

Thanks,

Zach

[choneofakind]

Yea! Very much. They were a noticeable improvement at the track. I could feel way more and the brake dive was definitely reduced. My bike got winterized immediately after my track day so that was the last time I rode it. I definitely have too much fork oil in it. It still has about an inch of travel it's never used. Tire wear looks really good after 2 days on track.

Worth the time. Could maybe have the shim stack changed a bit, but huge improvement considering how little effort the install took.

[ninja2007]

Thanks for the update on the review!

Zach

[corksil]

Bumping this thread because I just ordered 0.85kg sonic springs (I'm 165lb) -- these intiminators, and an external preload adjuster from "slingshot racing".

I have stocked up on 5w fork oil, and plan to tackle the installation once the parts arrive. Any day now.

Anything else I should know? I guess I'll just get all the parts in front of me and see what kind of documentation/instruction I receive with the parts and then just sit down and figure it all out.

[choneofakind]

Besides already telling you that I don't think the parts are intended for the newgen, no. I think the install is dead intuitive. If you can manage an exhaust install and rejet, you're more than capable of this install.

[Ghostt]

Okay I'm sold, these are on the list for Ninjette first, then the EX if I like them.

[ieathonda]

Holy thread bump batman!

Seriously though this was an informative thread. I an ditching the idea of race tech emulators and will be hopping on these shortly.

[Ghostt]

This should be sticky for sure right @Alex ?

[Alex]

I don't think so. While a useful thread (that would come up if anyone searched for Ricor), I don't think it's DIY thread yet.

[alex.s]

I don't think it's DIY thread yet.

*hint hint, chode*

[choneofakind]

Ummm, no need to sticky. Nothing I've ever posted has really been sticky worthy imho



But seriously, the DIY involves pulling the spring out, measuring the intiminator, cutting a new spacer, and plonking it all down. Sure, I sanded the rings a tad to make them less sticky, but meh. It's pretty intuitive. I haven't done any tuning with the shim stack yet, but that's a little above me atm because of the whole not-riding-for-the-season-yet thing.

but for the work involved vs the result you get, they're pretty awesome. You pay for the convenience over the emulators.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I don't think the parts are intended for the newgen

I know this is an old post, but since this thread seems to be becoming the "official" Intiminators thread and more people seem to be getting interested in them, I wanted to address this.

Ricor's store page lists them for "Ninja 250 1986-2008". I'm sure we're all aware that the '08 isn't the same as the rest. So either it does work with the NewGen and it should be through 2012 (maybe even beyond that with the 300), or it doesn't work with the NewGen and it should be through 2007.

The 250/500 old/new gen forks confuse me. Both the PreGen and the Gen1 have 36mm forks, while the NewGen and Gen2 have 37mm forks. On RaceTech's site, they list the older ones as "KYB 36C" and the newer ones as "KYB 37C" to match this. However, they use the same spring (FRSP S2938) and emulator (FEGV S3501) for PreGen/NewGen/Gen2. But for the Gen1, they list emulator FEGV S3301 and no spring. According to Ghostt's post, the PreGen and Gen1 springs are a direct swap, giving more support to the theory that the older 36mm forks match, as one would probably expect. But the PreGen forks can't match both the Gen1 forks and the NewGen forks, if the Gen1 and NewGen don't match.

Because of all this inconsistency, I don't know what does and doesn't match. However, the fact that RT has the PreGen and NewGen using the same spring and emulator makes me think that they should be able to use the same Intiminator also. The fact that I'm using them in my Gen2's 37mm forks also leads me to believe they'll work in the NewGen. The fact that mine slid in with minimal friction, whereas chone shaved his sealing ring down a bit, makes me think they might actually be better on the 37mm forks. And for some confusing reason, Ricor calls them 39mm Intiminators.

I only have one of the four mentioned models, but it seems to be the closest match to the NewGen (though it shares RT parts with both the PreGen and NewGen). Based on my Intiminator experience with my bike and what I've read here, I'd expect them to work just fine on the NewGen.

[ieathonda]

I noticed that chone installed 39 when ours are obviously 36.. may be some technical error on their part..

I suppose some modification will get them to sit in there nice and snug

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

But seriously, the DIY involves pulling the spring out, measuring the intiminator, cutting a new spacer, and plonking it all down. Sure, I sanded the rings a tad to make them less sticky, but meh. It's pretty intuitive. I haven't done any tuning with the shim stack yet, but that's a little above me atm because of the whole not-riding-for-the-season-yet thing.

Agreed, it's fairly simple and straightforward. http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Install...rs_and_springs is an acceptable guide for installing Intiminators too, just skip the steps regarding disassembling the innards of the fork (yes, you're skipping a lot of it). If you already have your spacer cut to length for proper preload with your springs (step 17), just cut it down by the thickness of the bottom of the Intiminator (~15mm).

Draining the old fork oil out is probably one of the more inconvenient parts. You might be able to add a drain screw to make it easier. With being able to drain my fork oil this way, I was able to install my Intiminators with the bike just parked on the centerstand in around half an hour. Remember to only uncap one fork at a time, or the whole front end will collapse down.

The shim stack uses thinner oil than fixed-orifice damping systems, so it inherently bypasses the stock damper rod system for the most part. If you have the forks apart for other servicing, or you want to be 100% sure the stock parts aren't interfering with the Intiminators, you can drill out the damper rod holes just as you would with emulators, using those skipped steps.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

but for the work involved vs the result you get, they're pretty awesome. You pay for the convenience over the emulators.

I think the convenience is actually a bit overrated. If you have stock forks, you need to at least remove them to drain the old fork oil out, which to me is rather inconvenient. They do work great as a drop-in, but if you want to ensure that they're handling all the compression damping instead of the stock parts, you should still drill out your damper rods just as you would with emulators.

For ~$50 over the price of emulators, I see it as upgrading from fixed-orifice damping to a shim stack and from a spring-pressure blow-off valve to the inertia valve. In my eyes, both of those are much more advanced control systems.

From an SV650S rider:

Preliminary report on how these Iniminators are working on the Dragon, 'hala ...

HOLY CHIT!

These things are as close to my AK20's that if I would not look down and see the preload adjusters, I would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

My prediction is Gixxer fork swaps will be a thing of the past ... I am not exaggerating.

The front wheel is incredibly pliant, following the road soaking up irregularities with ease. Lots of HD riders around here have already heard about them and are asking me questions about if the Intiminators are worth it. My response ... you're crazy if you don't do it ... and that is to a HD rider.

To this crowd ... I would love to have anyone here tell me that a Gixxer swap is better than this.

I think it's amazing that a simple, cheap-ish upgrade like this can even be considered in the same class as $1100+ upgraded fork internals.

[choneofakind]

Yeah, I'm not sure what part of these actually measures out to 39mm...

[agentbad]

How would these do with the stock springs?

[choneofakind]

Well... if I were a betting man, I'd bet that they'll change the damping characteristics of the fork a little.

[Ghostt]

They just affect the fork valving, does nothing for spring rate.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by agentbad

How would these do with the stock springs?

What they said.

There are different ways to make a suspension work. With the Intiminators, Ricor has said that they're aiming at a relatively large amount of damping, so you can get by with less spring. The damping performance will be greatly improved due to switching to the shim setup, and the inertia valve is a huge help with big bumps.

However, these little Ninjas have horribly undersprung forks. The EX500 springs are 33% stiffer than the PreGen springs, and they're still only ideal for someone who weighs ~110lb. If you're 160lb, RaceTech recommends 50% stiffer springs. These aren't like some bigger bikes, where the springs might be off a notch or two for your weight, they're completely out of line for any adult's weight. The NewGen/300 is the best OEM setup out of the little Ninjas, with fork springs good for ~95lb.

Getting the springs right will do amazing things for how the bike handles (especially if you're bigger), they're half the price of Intiminators (even cheaper if you can use the springs from a different model), and they're easier to install. Intiminators tweak the damping system, to fine-tune the operation of the forks. Springs of the proper rate will give the bike a neutral bounce, so the suspension movement will be more appropriate in the first place. This means the damping system doesn't have to try to fight excessive movement due to weak springs.

[toEleven]

I'm on board with the off-hand 'official Intiminator thread' comment made earlier. So: @choneofakind, you mentioned small bump compliance being a problem in post #3. You also linked a list of Intiminator mods in post #9 which includes this:

Drill a by-pass hole for the intiminator (this allow small bumps and road imperfection to be delt effectively)
If after all mods you feel the intiminator does not deal with tiny bumps or road imperfection effectively (ie jarring over them) this will solve your problem - posted by Ranger Ron and on advice from Ricor (now only Ricor suggested that from the beginning ) - I am amazed how effective this solution is. I am guessing the reason this mod works so well is that a certain amount of fluid pressure is needed to push pass those shim stack - the by-pass hole provide some relief before the shim stack is pushed up - a bit like the by-pass orifices of RT emulator. giving a more complaint ride on minor stuff. I find a 1mm(d) sufficient for my purpose

Did you ever attempt this mod? I didn't catch any mention so I'm assuming you didn't, but i'd rather not treat my assumptions as fact when accuracy is obtainable.

[choneofakind]

Nope. Never got further than installing them. They were an improvement as they were delivered when installed with the recommended lightest oil you can get your hands on. Can they be better? sure! But That takes time and my work/school schedule hasn't permitted much dedicated time to forks lately.

[Mike K]

This looks like pretty cool tech for not too much more $$.