Knee out, NOT down

[backinthesaddleagain]

J- I don't know that years of dirtbike riding have been detrimental to my cornering on street bikes. The main thing I had to overcome was wanting to put my foot out in a turn (which I probably would do if riding a Hypermotard or similar bike) Look at RC he is leaning in the turn, rather than keeping his body upright. I can't find the pic but years ago Gary Bailey had a pic from his school of him holding a long stick while standing next to a berm. He held the stick at an angle and the rider and bike had to both be leaned in the same direction to avoid hitting the stick. Possibly in an off camber turn in the dirt you would point your body up away from the lean of the bike while weighting the outside peg. Some also sit up on the outside edge of the seat to push the bike into more of a lean, but RC is a pretty good style to emulate.

[JMcDonald]

I didnt mean that my experience on dirt was detrimental to my street riding. Just that the habit of leaning the bike more while keeping my torso upright IS detrimental to street handling. Your pic is a perfect example of the bike leaning below the rider, which would be bad to do on pavement.
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[Misti]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

However, now that I have gotten more used to shifting more of my weight off the bike, I am starting to see a definite difference. I ride about an average of an hour a day, and am improving my skills with every mile. And with this improvement, I am starting to see enough consistency to be able to tell what factors are causes observed differences. And I can DEFINITELY feel the increase in traction. It is not in-your-face or anything, but I notice when I hang off the bike pretty far (at least a full cheek off the seat, with my head behind the inside the mirror), I get much much less wavering of the tires (especially the rear). In doing this, rolling on the throttle is much more confidence-inspiring, whereas before it was almost a matter of hoping my tire sticks, rather than feeling that it will.

One really funny thing is that even though I am now faster and have more traction through the same turns, my "chicken strips" are actually a little wider than they were before, due to more proper form for hard cornering. So, anytime someone gives you crap about chicken strips, show them that above image, and exlain how leaning the bike hard only shows how gutsy (and / or unskilled :P) a rider is, but has little relation to how fast he or she is actually taking the corner. This is not to say I am cornering to the max or anything, but it does show obviously that while I had narrower strips before and was riding closer to traction limits, I now have fewer traction concerns, corner with more speed, but am apparently more of a "chicken." :P

Really good point here and I love the comment about the "chicken strips". I used to think that the goal was to lean the bike over as far as it would go so that I would scrape a foot peg or run the tires right down to the edge It wasn't until I took the Superbike School that I realized that thinking is all backwards. As you say, with better body position you are actually able to lean the bike over LESS while going through a corner faster. Having the bike more upright not only gives you better traction but it also helps the suspension work better resulting in an overall more stable bike.

As you are able to notice, the bike handles better, and uses less of the tire, when you have good body position

Cheers!

Misti

[Misti]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

However, now that I have gotten more used to shifting more of my weight off the bike, I am starting to see a definite difference. I ride about an average of an hour a day, and am improving my skills with every mile. And with this improvement, I am starting to see enough consistency to be able to tell what factors are causes observed differences. And I can DEFINITELY feel the increase in traction. It is not in-your-face or anything, but I notice when I hang off the bike pretty far (at least a full cheek off the seat, with my head behind the inside the mirror), I get much much less wavering of the tires (especially the rear). In doing this, rolling on the throttle is much more confidence-inspiring, whereas before it was almost a matter of hoping my tire sticks, rather than feeling that it will.

One really funny thing is that even though I am now faster and have more traction through the same turns, my "chicken strips" are actually a little wider than they were before, due to more proper form for hard cornering. So, anytime someone gives you crap about chicken strips, show them that above image, and exlain how leaning the bike hard only shows how gutsy (and / or unskilled :P) a rider is, but has little relation to how fast he or she is actually taking the corner. This is not to say I am cornering to the max or anything, but it does show obviously that while I had narrower strips before and was riding closer to traction limits, I now have fewer traction concerns, corner with more speed, but am apparently more of a "chicken." :P

Really good point here and I love the comment about the "chicken strips". I used to think that the goal was to lean the bike over as far as it would go so that I would scrape a foot peg or run the tires right down to the edge It wasn't until I took the Superbike School that I realized that thinking is all backwards. As you say, with better body position you are actually able to lean the bike over LESS while going through a corner faster. Having the bike more upright not only gives you better traction but it also helps the suspension work better resulting in an overall more stable bike.

As you are able to notice, the bike handles better, and uses less of the tire, when you have good body position

Cheers!

Misti

[JMcDonald]

Thanks . One of these days I will have to do a track day / track school, but until then it is just reading and reading and doing my best to take it slow and check my progress. I am sure I don't look perfect coming around the bends, but I think markers like making sure I can see my collar / chin in the inside mirror keep me from making the big mistakes.

[JMcDonald]

I have also realized that when I am hanging off the bike, bumps and such actually upset the bike less. This might have something to do with what Misti said about the suspension being able to work better when more upright (and combined with the greater traction available).

[Havok]

I see where getting under the center line and hanging a cheek off the bile helps on sweepers and turns can help my question is do you do this on switchbacks and s turns as well? Is all that weight shifting and sliding on the seat goon to make the bike a bit wobbly and unstable? I do load the inside peg and I keep my knees planted to the tank.

I have yet to shift my butt of the seat as I have been trying to keep my center mass as center on the bike as I can. Trying to make it so me an the bike are one, both going the same way.

To visualize it when I am on the bike I act as if my legs don't exist and that the bike is a part of my body rather then me sitting on top of a bike if that makes any sense.

[JMcDonald]

At first it felt awkward to shift my butt in general, let alone for rapid changes in direction, but now it doesnt really feel weird as I slowly get smoother and less comfortable. I actually now find it exciting to move my body around more on the bike. I find myself doing it on everyday, normal-speed turns just for the fun of it haha.

And dont try to shift your butt around until you are plenty comfortable just moving your torso. Because yes, it is easy to unbalance the bike if you dont do it smoothely and in time with every other part of the turning process.

Just remember that sticking your knee out, let alone dragging it, is the LAST step in the process of "getting off the bike." Start from the top and work your way down is about the gist of what ive read.
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[manos33rd]

I can say that peg weighting depends on how you want the bike angle to be in the turn. And its the same on street, track, or dirt. The only physical difference between dirt cornering and street/track cornering is the fact that you can powerslide in a turn if you want on dirt which has a different type of physical component than keeping the tire in a gripped, traction state. That said, it works like this. When you are on the street, depending on how hard you lean, and how far off the bike you hang, depends on which peg you want to weight. If you're more of a "neutral" rider, in otherwords you lean with the bike just enough to stay straight in relation to the bike in turns, peg weighting is unnecessary. If you hang off a little, then you can weight the OUTER peg to straighten the bike's lean angle, or the INNER peg to increase the bike's lean angle. If you hang off the bike alot when you lean, the same exact physics apply. If you are leaning way off the bike, you weight the outer peg to straighten the bike, or the inner peg to help lean the bike into the turn with you. it is VERY difficult to drag your knee if you weight the inner peg in a turn, but not impossible. It is almost second nature to drag your knee if you're weighting the outside peg (toes on the peg, not center of foot) And of course, all of this stuff is more exaggerated on the track, but does happen on the street, to a lesser degree, in normal street conditions. Pointing the knee is a subconscious attempt to counterbalance your body weight to fight the body's natural urge to lean into the turn. The knee comes out subconsiously in an attempt to keep your body straight up and down while the turn is initiated. If I were you, for now, I would keep both knees on the tank and SLIGHTLY weight the OUTER peg which will cause your body to lean more into the turn naturally, eliminating the need to point the knee in the turn. I would practice going slow(40 or so mph) and keeping both knees glued on the tank, weighting the outer peg and starting the lean just as you start the turn, in one fluid motion. In time, the knee won't EVER come out(much) unless its to drag the pavement.(titanium knee pads are cool for this at night on the street hehe) In time, as you get more comfortable with body lean into the turns, you will realize that peg weighting is more of a second nature action to help stabilize the bike and keep a smoother line in the turns. Assuming you're doing outside/inside/outside turn approach, the peg weighting is usually minimal and only exaggerated in hard, fast turns. Once you are comfortable with leaning into turns, you will see that the inside knee will often not be gripping the tank, but it will also not be pointing into the turn either. it will be further from the tank the further you lean off the bike, but in a natural, non-pointed position. Always stay relaxed at all speeds, even in the turns, as much as you can possibly be while staying on the bike, and you will find that this stuff starts to come more naturally. Bad body position is almost always a result of being too tense on the bike.

[JMcDonald]

I have tried peg weighting, but i cant feel any difference. For a given turn radius at a given speed, the bike leans a certain amount, changed only by how far i am leaning off. The bike cant stand up or lay down more without changing the turn radius. I change how far i am leaning off with my knees and thighs mostly, it feels like. At least, it doesnt feel like it is determined by how much weight i put on each peg.

Or, by "weighting the peg" is the ultimate goal still just moving your weight toward either side of the bike in order to change the bikes lean angle? Because it still doesnt make sense to simply be able to stand up or lean down the bike (whether pressing on the pegs or using any other method) without changing other factors (turn radius, speed, or bodyweight shift).

And 40mph can be reeally fast for some turns lol.
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[Alex]

I'd put the whole peg weighting discussion to the way back of the pile, it's just not the most critical aspect of safely negotiating a turn. It turns out to be helpful in maintaining and gaining traction while exiting a corner (weighting the outside peg) when traction would otherwise be an issue. It does help place the weight on the bike in a better place, and also helps (a bit) in being able to stand the bike up sooner for better traction and better drive. How often is this relevant in street conditions when the tire/bike/rider are nowhere near the traction limits? Who knows.

Weighting the inside peg when entering a turn is not nearly as universally supported. Some racers swear by it, it's a concept that the Spencer school use to spend quite a bit of time on, but many (most) of the other schools aren't as enthused about. This, along with watching any of the top folks in GP, WSBK, and even AMA nowadays completing coming off the inside peg on corner entry shows that whatever it used to help, isn't helping much anymore.

[manos33rd]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

I have tried peg weighting, but i cant feel any difference. For a given turn radius at a given speed, the bike leans a certain amount, changed only by how far i am leaning off. The bike cant stand up or lay down more without changing the turn radius. I change how far i am leaning off with my knees and thighs mostly, it feels like. At least, it doesnt feel like it is determined by how much weight i put on each peg.

Or, by "weighting the peg" is the ultimate goal still just moving your weight toward either side of the bike in order to change the bikes lean angle? Because it still doesnt make sense to simply be able to stand up or lean down the bike (whether pressing on the pegs or using any other method) without changing other factors (turn radius, speed, or bodyweight shift).

And 40mph can be reeally fast for some turns lol.
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I agree, the weighting makes a difference, but not so much that you can REALLY tell a big one without being on the track. However, the purpose of weighting a peg(either peg) is to straighten or lean the bike once you're leaning or hanging off. If you're say, making a right turn, and your feet are weighted neutral, and you're leaning off, and then press weight on the outside peg, you will see the bike straighten a small amount, and if you weight the inside peg, you will see it 'settle in' a little and lean further into the turn. On the street, this is not a very big difference, but on the track, especially when doing S turns, the weighting makes negotiating these turns MUCH easier. I do use this technique on the street. But not all the time, as it is not often necessary. And 10 mph is too fast for SOME turns, hehe... But I mentioned peg weighting in this thread mainly because if you deploy some peg weighting, your knee will automatically come back in a little and stop trying to point. We were all new riders at one point, and we all went through the "learning process" of turning differently. I hope that my explanation helps, but we all know that there's a million ways to skin a cat. The most important thing is to relax though.

[ally99]

Can't figure out how to multi-quote right now (won't say why. LOL!), but J has a great point. I, too, have noticed bumps upset the bike MUCH less around corners when I'm hanging off. Great point!

Originally Posted by Havok

I see where getting under the center line and hanging a cheek off the bile helps on sweepers and turns can help my question is do you do this on switchbacks and s turns as well? Is all that weight shifting and sliding on the seat goon to make the bike a bit wobbly and unstable? I do load the inside peg and I keep my knees planted to the tank.

Correct positioning makes the esses even easier, to me! It takes lots of practice, but when on a really twisty road, your butt shouldn't really rest on the seat much, more like hover. It's a smooth but quick action in your legs that help you move from side to side. As you are coming out of the first S and uprighting the bike, as soon as it is stable, you should be getting into position for the upcoming curve. It takes half a second to switch when you're not resting your butt on the seat.

[JMcDonald]

Thanks. Yeah I get that pushing the pegs on way or the other cause the bike to lean more to that respective side. My question is it doesn't seem like this would be possible unless the act of pushing one of the pegs is actually moving the bike independently of your body. Like, if you push the outside peg, it doesn't seem like the bike would do anything unless:
-your center of mass was either pushed toward the inside of the bike by some fraction (allowing the bike to lean outward by the same proportion without changing the overall CoG), OR
-by pressing down on the outside peg, you are lifting yourself higher off the bike which gives your weight more leverage against the bike for the same lateral shift, allowing it to lean outward.

Is that what is happening?

*edit*

Actually, if you are sort of hovering over the seat in such a way that your butt can easily move independently of the bike, it would make sense that pushing down on either peg would indeed more readily cause your body to shift to the opposite direction. This would in turn affect the lean of the bike for a given speed and turn radius.

*edit*

And if this is the case, it is something that will have to weight til later. I am not yet comfortable enough to be lifting my butt off the seat mid-turn :P .

[Havok]

Ok so that answers that, I'll try shifting some around the neighborhood and on my commute to get a feel for it.

[manos33rd]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Thanks. Yeah I get that pushing the pegs on way or the other cause the bike to lean more to that respective side. My question is it doesn't seem like this would be possible unless the act of pushing one of the pegs is actually moving the bike independently of your body. Like, if you push the outside peg, it doesn't seem like the bike would do anything unless:
-your center of mass was either pushed toward the inside of the bike by some fraction (allowing the bike to lean outward by the same proportion without changing the overall CoG), OR
-by pressing down on the outside peg, you are lifting yourself higher off the bike which gives your weight more leverage against the bike for the same lateral shift, allowing it to lean outward.

Is that what is happening?

*edit*

Actually, if you are sort of hovering over the seat in such a way that your butt can easily move independently of the bike, it would make sense that pushing down on either peg would indeed more readily cause your body to shift to the opposite direction. This would in turn affect the lean of the bike for a given speed and turn radius.

*edit*

And if this is the case, it is something that will have to weight til later. I am not yet comfortable enough to be lifting my butt off the seat mid-turn :P .

Well, if you're hanging off the bike or hovering over the seat, the effect of pushing on the pegs is more pronounced, BUT, you can be going in a straight line and take one of your feet off of one peg, and push down on the other peg while firmly seated and notice the bike DOES indeed react. Its because even though your weight is theoretically centered over the bike, the place where you connect with the bike(peg) becomes biased to the peg you are pressing on. But peg weighting is way more natural than people realize and more people do it than do not. just the natural act of leaning causes a person to naturally weight one of the pegs. And this particular thread has been quite interesting. And, also to comment on the bike being less effected by bumps while hanging off(or a hard lean) YES! I'm so glad someone mentioned that! If the bike is more upright, the suspension quite simply works more efficiently... so a good lean helps in SO many ways. And a good solid lean in a relaxed stance, especially when combined with some outside peg weighting not only cures knee point, but will actually help make tire wear a little more even, and you can squeeze out a FEW extra thousand miles out of your rubber. In areas where its alot of straight roads, effective turns helps keep the tire from flattening in the center over time as well.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

And if this is the case, it is something that will have to weight til later. I am not yet comfortable enough to be lifting my butt off the seat mid-turn :P .

You don't lift off mid-turn. You're already in position prior to starting you lean into the curve. And in an "s", as you upright the bike, you are smoothly shifting your body along with it. The bike is its most stable as you are rounding the apex and coming out of the corner, and your body is just changing directions along with the bike. You, again, are in position for that 2nd corner seconds before you start your lean in.

[JMcDonald]

Yeah I know there wouldn't be any visible "space" between you and the seat. I am just trying to understand the physics behind this peg-weighting, which is not making sense even to someone about to graduate and start teaching Physics :P .

But, unless your body moves independently and to the opposite direction of the bike, applying pressures to different parts of the bike without changing the total CG could not possibly cause the bike to change angles WITHOUT changing either speed or the turn's radius.

This is not that I don't believe you, it is just that I would have a much easier time learning to do this if I fully understood the process.

[manos33rd]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Yeah I know there wouldn't be any visible "space" between you and the seat. I am just trying to understand the physics behind this peg-weighting, which is not making sense even to someone about to graduate and start teaching Physics :P .

But, unless your body moves independently and to the opposite direction of the bike, applying pressures to different parts of the bike without changing the total CG could not possibly cause the bike to change angles WITHOUT changing either speed or the turn's radius.

This is not that I don't believe you, it is just that I would have a much easier time learning to do this if I fully understood the process.

Imagine a scale with both sides weighing exactly the same and perfectly balanced. Then, imagine a man standing with one foot on each side of the scale, and balancing perfectly. If he lifts one foot or adds pressure to another side, even though his weight is still basically balanced over the scale, it will tip to the side he is pressing on, regardless of where his balance point is, because the CONTACT point, the gravity/downward force effecting the scale, is on one side. Its basic physics. It does not matter if you're balanced on the bike or not. all the bike knows is that one peg is recieving more weight than the other, which causes it to lean. you can be perfectly balanced over a skateboard, but press your toes and you turn, press your heels and you turn the other way. You're still balanced, but your weight is effecting one side more than the other. I don't know how to make this any simpler... its like when you're standing the bike up waiting for a rider to hop on back. When they put their foot on the first peg, the bike leans in that direction, and does not stabilize, no matter where they are on the bike, balanced over it, or to one side, until they rest their other foot on the opposite peg and balance their weight evenly on both pegs. So, having said that, you can be on the right side of the bike(leaning for a right turn) but if your primary pressure point(where your weight translates to the bike) is on the LEFT side, I.E. the left peg, then gravity pushes the LEFT PEG, even though you're on the right side. wherever you are on the bike is irrelevent, because your primary contact point becomes the peg you push on. I hope this helps.

[manos33rd]

to further test this, take a spoon and balance it over a small ball or grape or something, and push down with your fingers on either side balancing it. then lift one finger. That side comes up. push it down, it goes down. press evenly, it balances. push with one finger, that side goes down. the other side goes up. regardless of where your hand is. The spoon can't "see" your hand, it can only feel the two contact points that the weight effects. I mean, I think the reason why this is eluding you is because its such basic and elementary physics that you're trying to make it harder in your brain. lol. And when you LEAN your hand from one side or the other, the spoon reacts because in leaning your hand, it naturally pushes one finger harder on the spoon than the other. But, then lean your hand to the right, while pushing down with the finger on the LEFT side, the spoon will balance again. basic basic basic physics.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Yeah I know there wouldn't be any visible "space" between you and the seat. I am just trying to understand the physics behind this peg-weighting, which is not making sense even to someone about to graduate and start teaching Physics :P .

But, unless your body moves independently and to the opposite direction of the bike, applying pressures to different parts of the bike without changing the total CG could not possibly cause the bike to change angles WITHOUT changing either speed or the turn's radius.

This is not that I don't believe you, it is just that I would have a much easier time learning to do this if I fully understood the process.

I hear ya. Honestly, I'm no physics major...far from it. All I know is that I lean about half a cheek off my seat in the direction of the turn, relax my upper body, and everything "feels" smooth and 100% right. I may not be able to explain the physics of why, but being someone who used to keep my knees pressed to the tank and be more upright on the bike through mountain corners, I learned from many, many trips up there what feels right to me. Now hubby has never lost it on a corner (I can't say that ), and he stays right in line w/ the bike and doesn't stick a knee out at all. So I think the most important factor not to lose sight of is to find your individual comfort level. When you're riding in your comfort zone, you'll be looser and more relaxed, and that's truly the most important thing of all.
I have a question about weighting the outer peg as you guys are talking about. Is this what Keith Code (or was it Lee Parks?) refers to as "Pivot Steering"? In tight twisties, I tend to relax into my position, and I'm weighting the inside peg more. Just curious. I weight the outside peg in slow speed maneuvers such as U-turns, but on fast, tight corners, I give very little thought to the outside peg. My avatar pic and my profile pic show what I'm talking about.

[JeffM]

Gaaaaa, just scoot over a wee bit off the seat, look through the turn, point your chin, and steer the bike with the bars. It's easier.

[ally99]

LOL! Jeff, your way is too easy. hehe! Seriously, you are right, but it's a fun discussion to learn the intricacies of cornering form since that is my favorite type of riding! I love when people make me think about my own riding habits too. So hide behind your couch all you want.

[JeffM]

Allyson - Marshmallows at 10', you throw first!

Weighing the outside peg has me miffed. If you are hanging off, how can you weight the outside peg while pushing on the tank with your outside knee? I can see weighing the outside peg when coming out of a turn to stand the bike up a little bit quicker.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Allyson - Marshmallows at 10', you throw first!

Weighing the outside peg has me miffed. If you are hanging off, how can you weight the outside peg while pushing on the tank with your outside knee? I can see weighing the outside peg when coming out of a turn to stand the bike up a little bit quicker.

Miffed. lol! Like that word! I agree though, I don't weight the outside peg in anything other than u-turns and low-speed, parking-lot tighties. I don't understand how that's possible either. In a corner, I give very little thought to that outer peg.

Edit: Cool! This post gave me postwhore status! Gotta change my signature quotes now. lol!

[Havok]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Gaaaaa, just scoot over a wee bit off the seat, look through the turn, point your chin, and steer the bike with the bars. It's easier.

Damn you for taking 2 pages worth of posts and summing it up in 3 sentences!

[backinthesaddleagain]

Originally Posted by ally99

Miffed. lol! Like that word! I agree though, I don't weight the outside peg in anything other than u-turns and low-speed, parking-lot tighties. I don't understand how that's possible either. In a corner, I give very little thought to that outer peg.

Edit: Cool! This post gave me postwhore status! Gotta change my signature quotes now. lol!

If someones gonna be a whore I guess post whore is the way to go! Congrats!

[Alex]

Originally Posted by manos33rd

Imagine a scale with both sides weighing exactly the same and perfectly balanced. Then, imagine a man standing with one foot on each side of the scale, and balancing perfectly. If he lifts one foot or adds pressure to another side, even though his weight is still basically balanced over the scale, it will tip to the side he is pressing on, regardless of where his balance point is, because the CONTACT point, the gravity/downward force effecting the scale, is on one side. Its basic physics.

I don't think this is necessarily a great example. The scales in your example are separate bodies, the bike that we are applying the concept to is a single body. While in your example it would be quite possible for one scale to read almost 100% of the weight depending on how the weight is shifted, there is nothing of the sort possible on a moving motorcycle. Even with the rider putting 100% of their weight on the outside peg, and somehow fully unweighting the bars, any seat contact, and the inside peg; the weight of the rider is still being transmitted to the bike barely 6" off of the centerline of the bike. Which in the scheme of things, isn't a particularly large force.

Originally Posted by manos33rd

to further test this, take a spoon and balance it over a small ball or grape or something, and push down with your fingers on either side balancing it. then lift one finger. That side comes up. push it down, it goes down. press evenly, it balances. push with one finger, that side goes down. the other side goes up. regardless of where your hand is. The spoon can't "see" your hand, it can only feel the two contact points that the weight effects. I mean, I think the reason why this is eluding you is because its such basic and elementary physics that you're trying to make it harder in your brain. lol. And when you LEAN your hand from one side or the other, the spoon reacts because in leaning your hand, it naturally pushes one finger harder on the spoon than the other. But, then lean your hand to the right, while pushing down with the finger on the LEFT side, the spoon will balance again. basic basic basic physics.

Sure, but that basic basic basic physics barely applies in this case. The spoon has zero resistance to the movement as described. Not to mention that the force being applied in the example is an external force coming from a body that isn't attached to the spoon in the first place. A moving motorcycle has inertia, it has gyroscopic stability, and is much more inherently stable. To get the bike to change lean angle in any significant way on a bike at speed, the primary control is bar input. To determine a certain lean angle at a certain speed and radius, the main variable the rider can control is BP. Proper BP will imply a certain amount of peg weighting. At the end of all that, concentration on proper peg weighting will reinforce proper BP, and the weighting in and of itself can have a small affect on the bike's traction under power.

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by JeffM

Weighing the outside peg has me miffed. If you are hanging off, how can you weight the outside peg while pushing on the tank with your outside knee? I can see weighing the outside peg when coming out of a turn to stand the bike up a little bit quicker.

I think you guys are thinking too much

In my brief experimentations with this on the street, putting weight on the inside peg helped initiate turns a little more aggressively, and putting weight on the outside peg helped right the bike. The results are nothing mind shattering mind you, but putting weight on the inside peg probably happens when you slide your butt off the seat anyway...and putting weight on the outside peg probably happens when you shift your butt back onto the seat. It's a matter of how much you want to exaggerate it...and timing...and all that. As mentioned, this is more of a fine tuning thing than anything else. It's fun to mess around with this stuff on a commute, though.

[manos33rd]

Originally Posted by Alex

I don't think this is necessarily a great example. The scales in your example are separate bodies, the bike that we are applying the concept to is a single body. While in your example it would be quite possible for one scale to read almost 100% of the weight depending on how the weight is shifted, there is nothing of the sort possible on a moving motorcycle. Even with the rider putting 100% of their weight on the outside peg, and somehow fully unweighting the bars, any seat contact, and the inside peg; the weight of the rider is still being transmitted to the bike barely 6" off of the centerline of the bike. Which in the scheme of things, isn't a particularly large force.



Sure, but that basic basic basic physics barely applies in this case. The spoon has zero resistance to the movement as described. Not to mention that the force being applied in the example is an external force coming from a body that isn't attached to the spoon in the first place. A moving motorcycle has inertia, it has gyroscopic stability, and is much more inherently stable. To get the bike to change lean angle in any significant way on a bike at speed, the primary control is bar input. To determine a certain lean angle at a certain speed and radius, the main variable the rider can control is BP. Proper BP will imply a certain amount of peg weighting. At the end of all that, concentration on proper peg weighting will reinforce proper BP, and the weighting in and of itself can have a small affect on the bike's traction under power.

Well, the scales do not represent two bodies. I'm talking about the type of scale the statue of liberty holds... Its two bowls hanging off of one single bar at a balance point. If you effect one bowl, the other bowl comes up. The bar would represent the motorcycle, each bowl represents the pegs. And yes, you are correct, the spoon is not being acted on by any other forces like inertia or centrifical force, which makes it an even better example to show the point. Steering input DOES effect the bike and initial lean angle, but body position and peg weighting effects the bike just as much even though there is momentum and centrifical force acting on the bike. You have to actually get on a bike and do it yourself and do it properly to see exactly how much of a difference peg weighting makes concerning lean angle. Its just like leaning or hanging. you have to actually do it to feel the difference.
To express this with basic math, if you enter a turn and you are neutral on the seat, and the bike leans 10 degrees, and you then lean into the turn with your body an additional 6 degrees, the bike will straighten up about 3 degrees. Inertia, centrifugal, centrifical, and any other forces will not change that math. The same with the peg weighting. if you weigh 200 lbs, and each foot puts 75pounds of force on each peg and you transfer your weight to one peg, say an extra 5 lbs, it would be 80 lbs of weight on that peg and 70 on the other, which will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the heavy side. It basically tricks the bike into thinking it weighs an extra ten pounds on that side... Again, this is simple physics, and although the momentum and stability of the bike may make this more smooth on a bike and a bit more fluid, it still happens.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by manos33rd

To express this with basic math, if you enter a turn and you are neutral on the seat, and the bike leans 10 degrees, and you then lean into the turn with your body an additional 6 degrees, the bike will straighten up about 3 degrees. Inertia, centrifugal, centrifical, and any other forces will not change that math. The same with the peg weighting. if you weigh 200 lbs, and each foot puts 75pounds of force on each peg and you transfer your weight to one peg, say an extra 5 lbs, it would be 80 lbs of weight on that peg and 70 on the other, which will cause the bike to lean in the direction of the heavy side. It basically tricks the bike into thinking it weighs an extra ten pounds on that side... Again, this is simple physics, and although the momentum and stability of the bike may make this more smooth on a bike and a bit more fluid, it still happens.

I'm sorry Manos, but this isn't basic math, it's wrong math. In your first example, if the bike leans 10 degrees, and you lean in with your body an additional 6 degrees, the bike will straighten up about 1.5 degrees. The only way it happens as you say is if it is a 200 pound rider on a 200 pound bike. Take that 200 pound rider on the typical 400 pound bike, or take a 150 pound rider on a 500 pound bike, and the differences become even less.

What you're not expressing in these examples on the peg weighting side is that the difference from the centerline of the bike to the pegs is not a huge amount. A difference of weight of 10 pounds (80 on one and 70 on another, as you listed) will not make a whit of difference in the attitude of the bike, the lean angle of the bike, or how the bike behaves. It has to be a very significant difference to be felt at all when the bike is at speed. In physics terms, if you took that 10 pound difference and hung it off the end of a 10 foot pole on the side of the bike, now there is some force there.

[ally99]

Originally Posted by Flashmonkey

I think you guys are thinking too much

LOL! James, now you sound like my hubby. He tells me that a lot. hehe

[Flashmonkey]

Originally Posted by ally99

LOL! James, now you sound like my hubby. He tells me that a lot. hehe

Thinking is a dangerous epidemic and I aim to stop it!

[rockNroll]

IMO most people aren't riding at a level high enough to be worrying about weight distribution between the foot pegs.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by Havok

Damn you for taking 2 pages worth of posts and summing it up in 3 sentences!

That would be two sentences.

[JeffM]

Originally Posted by rockNroll

IMO most people aren't riding at a level high enough to be worrying about weight distribution between the foot pegs.

Agreed.

[JMcDonald]

I was going to point out that the only reason that explanation is simple is because it is not relevant.

The bike cannot change lean angles for a given turning radius at a given speed without the rider changing his center of gravity in the opposite direction to compensate. If weighting the pegs really just causes the rider to move his weight around relative to the bike (even if he doesnt know this), then yes the end result of "weighting the pegs" is that the bikes lean angle will change. But, if you are proposing that even if the rider's position relative to the bike does not change, while the bike (and thus the rider) itself can be leaned up or down depending solely on peg weighting, then you are proposing a physical impossibility.
Posted via Mobile Device

*edit*

That is to say, it is again all about moving your weight around on the bike.

[manos33rd]

Originally Posted by Alex

I'm sorry Manos, but this isn't basic math, it's wrong math. In your first example, if the bike leans 10 degrees, and you lean in with your body an additional 6 degrees, the bike will straighten up about 1.5 degrees. The only way it happens as you say is if it is a 200 pound rider on a 200 pound bike. Take that 200 pound rider on the typical 400 pound bike, or take a 150 pound rider on a 500 pound bike, and the differences become even less.

What you're not expressing in these examples on the peg weighting side is that the difference from the centerline of the bike to the pegs is not a huge amount. A difference of weight of 10 pounds (80 on one and 70 on another, as you listed) will not make a whit of difference in the attitude of the bike, the lean angle of the bike, or how the bike behaves. It has to be a very significant difference to be felt at all when the bike is at speed. In physics terms, if you took that 10 pound difference and hung it off the end of a 10 foot pole on the side of the bike, now there is some force there.

lol. No, I gotta say its still basic math. And you are right, assuming a 400lb bike and a 200 lb rider, the bike's lean angle would be only around 1.5 degrees. I'm trying to simplify as much as I can to make a point. And, you're also right, the distance from the pegs and the bike's C.O.G. is not very much. But ten pounds difference even at 6 inches off of the C.O.G. is a HUGE amount. If the bike is sitting still, and perfectly balanced, it would cause it to tip over pretty quickly. At speed, that force STILL ACTS ON THE BIKE, but due to the momentum of the bike, the physics behind the spinning wheels, etc, the lean in degrees becomes much less immediate, more fluid, and more controllable. But the force still acts on it. If you think 10 unexpected pounds of weight added to one peg of your bike without you knowing about it won't put you into a ditch or a tree, have one of your friends ride beside you and throw a ten pound bag of sugar on one of your feet while you ride lol and tell me how much it costs to repaint your bike and set your broken leg. And to JM, I agree, weighting the peg DOES cause the rider to naturally shift his weight, but even if he didn't shift his weight, it would still cause the bike to change degrees. Why? for two reasons. One, when you change the weight of the bike(by weighting the pegs) you change the lean angle, which also changes the angle the front wheel is turned, also by simple physics. I can't help that this is over people's heads, so I say just to go to a track and talk to some experienced riders and they will tell you how many degrees of a difference weighting makes, how much hanging effects the lean angle of the bike, and how once in a turn weighting and hanging can effectively change the lean angle of the bike enough to make the difference between low-siding and staying on the track when needed. Its just how it is. and one of my original points, JM, is that by weighting the pegs, you ARE changing your position, at least from a mass standpoint, as far as the bike is concerned whether or not you move at all. That is, assuming your butt is not on the seat. If you guys are planted in the seat and trying this it won't work because the "weight" is on the seat the whole time and you're just flexing your muscles and flexing your leg into the peg, but no weight transfer is taking place. To try this at home without resulting road rash, but a HARD lesson on why this can't be argued, grab a BMX bike with the trick pegs on the back wheel. Get up to about 10 or so mph, stand up off the seat, put your feet on the back pegs, and just lift one of your feet off the back peg. You will IMMEDIATELY have to compensate with the bars to stay on course. It makes that much of a difference, even on a bmx. Now this is an optional technique, its not necessary for riding, but a firm grasp of this concept, why it works and how effective it is, is a good technique to know, especially if you live in an area with alot of twisties or you find yourself coming up on curves unexpectedly alot. I'm not going to give any more input on it, mainly because there's a billion websites to support what I'm saying and virtually any seasoned rider will agree with, assuming they are familiar with this technique. I just don't know what else to say. I was in a 20mph turn not an hour ago with my butt off the seat, maybe 12degree lean on the bike and i was off about 5 maybe 10 degrees(probably closer to 5) and I weighted the outside peg and the bike jumped up at least 4 degrees. I just chuckled. Of course, I'm relaxed, not fighting the bike, not arguing with the steering, not keeping my legs any more tense than they have to be to keep my butt up, but yeah. Bike does what its told. Peg weighting works, works well, easy to document, and the force effect IS enough to change the lean angle effectively. If it wasn't, motoGP riders wouldn't do it, and neither would anyone else. Its a waste of energy to do it on the track if it does not yield a result. But for you guys to say this stuff doesn't work just because the physics behind it elude you and you do not or have not done it enough to do it properly, then there's nothing to say to you to the contrary. Its like those guys that argue body steering, and how body steering "works" until Mr. Code in California welded bars to the front of the bike so you could hold them and not the handle bars and lean and do whatever you want but the only thing it changed was LEAN ANGLE lol while the bike stayed pretty much straight.(you can watch vids of this on youtube all day long just type in "keith code body steering bike") So, I file both of your arguments under "body steering" and move on. lol. and by the way, I can't believe that Alex thinks that ten pounds difference on a balanced object to one side at such a low point on the bike(like a peg) won't effect the lean angle just because its not far from the centerline. I do appreciate the input, incorrect or not. Oh and by the way, the 10lbs was an example, like the degree of lean difference was an example. Alex took both examples and ran with them. When weighting a peg with your butt off the seat, you transfer much more than 10 pounds difference on the peg you're weighting, depending on how much you're wanting to weight it. Again, like the 3 degree example, its just an example. lol. I'm going to go hop on my bike now and go do some peg weighted twisties.

[backinthesaddleagain]

Re the bmx example is that because the rider's weight far exceeds the bike's? Code says you can't steer a road bike with your feet, though he does say you can with a dirtbike (wicked paraphrased). Not that he is the only answer in town.
Misti - your thoughts?

[manos33rd]

Originally Posted by backinthesaddleagain

Re the bmx example is that because the rider's weight far exceeds the bike's? Code says you can't steer a road bike with your feet, though he does say you can with a dirtbike (wicked paraphrased). Not that he is the only answer in town.
Misti - your thoughts?

This isn't about steer, its about lean angle, and how lean angle affects knee point, and pointers on how to remove it. You can't steer a bike with the pegs, and I never said that. As far as the example of the bmx, the weight of the vehicle is not as important as how the balance point is affected by a bias to the right or left in weight. And Code is not the only answer, but undisputable due to his ridiculous amount of years in the game, road and track experience, and other riders that have put his theories to the test and saw immediate riding improvements. Again. Just to be clear. Never said anything about steering with the pegs. Jesus. -shakes head-