New and CCT issues ?

[peperino]

Hey everyone, I'm new here, I have bought a '12 250R one week ago.

I made some maintenance work on it, coolant and oil changed.
Today suddenly the bike started doing a big noise from the engine, I believe it is the cam chain because it only happens between 2 and 3k.

It is common for the CCT to die suddenly?
What are my options now? I guess I should stop the bike immediately to avoid damage.

Thank you!

[VaFish]

Well I have more questions than suggestions.

How many miles (KM's) on the bike?

How soon after your maintenance did the noises start? If they were immediately after then it was probably something you did during the maintenance.

Oh and welcome.

[peperino]

Hi

Bikes has 20k miles.
I changed the oil yesterday and the noise started today.

I haven't done anything different as I always do, I had a zzr250 a few years ago (similar engine) and I'm used on how to service the bike.

Noise is only appearing between 2 and 3k. I'll try to record a video later

[Skullz]

I got this a few years ago, and well worth it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/APE-KT250-CA...xU7ezt&vxp=mtr

I set it finger tight at first, and then started the engine and tightened until the noise stopped.

[peperino]

Originally Posted by Skullz

I got this a few years ago, and well worth it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/APE-KT250-CA...xU7ezt&vxp=mtr

I set it finger tight at first, and then started the engine and tightened until the noise stopped.

Alright but, it is common for this sound to appear suddenly, and only at 2-3k rpm ? Is that the common symptom of a broken CCT?

I've read some reset them. It is worth to try on mine?

[Skullz]

Where does the noise come from?
Yes a noise can just pop up out of no where.

[peperino]

Originally Posted by Skullz

Where does the noise come from?
Yes a noise can just pop up out of no where.

I'm not quite sure, sounds like the cam chain.
Give me a few hours and I'll post a vid

Thanks

[APEmike]

Originally Posted by Skullz

I got this a few years ago, and well worth it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/APE-KT250-CA...xU7ezt&vxp=mtr

I set it finger tight at first, and then started the engine and tightened until the noise stopped.

HEY! My cam chain tensioner! Im not the seller, he just happens to be a dealer of my company's parts...

The KT250 will take care of your problem. It fits 08-12 250 and 13-up 300.

The actual procedure to get correct tension is to put cylinder #1 to top dead center on the power stroke, remove the old tensioner carefully, install the manual CCT and tighten with your fingers till it makes contact with the chain. Back it off 1/4 turn and lock in place with the jam nut. Start the bike and if there is a little noise tighten VERY slowly till the noise goes away. You DONT want any actual tension as that will stretch the chain and wear out the guides in a hurry. The tensioner is just there to remove slack.

Be careful while you are removing the old one that it does not skip any teeth. Best to do it with the valve cover off if you can.

[peperino]

I'm trying to confirm if thats the issue. It is a common symptom to have the noise between 2-3k ONLY ?

And do they fail this quick ? (20k miles on bike)

Thank you

[Skullz]

Originally Posted by APEmike

HEY! My cam chain tensioner! Im not the seller, he just happens to be a dealer of my company's parts...

The KT250 will take care of your problem. It fits 08-12 250 and 13-up 300.

The actual procedure to get correct tension is to put cylinder #1 to top dead center on the power stroke, remove the old tensioner carefully, install the manual CCT and tighten with your fingers till it makes contact with the chain. Back it off 1/4 turn and lock in place with the jam nut. Start the bike and if there is a little noise tighten VERY slowly till the noise goes away. You DONT want any actual tension as that will stretch the chain and wear out the guides in a hurry. The tensioner is just there to remove slack.

Be careful while you are removing the old one that it does not skip any teeth. Best to do it with the valve cover off if you can.

Thanks for posting that as i just went off a youtube video and as you said take it very slow to keep from over tightening and possibly snapping the chain.

[spooph]

OP, CCT's don't usually catastrophically fail. The clicking usually starts one or two clicks at a time and then gets worse with time. If indeed it did fail, it could be a culprit. We'll have to listen to the video to get a better idea, but either rebuilding your automatic CCT or getting APE's manual CCT will be good ideas regardless. I rebuild my CCT every 20K or so.

IF you're CCT failed I would really like to see it apart as I have no idea where it could possibly fail. Even if a spring broke, it is nearly impossibly to compress it causing slack in the system.

[peperino]

My cellphone mic is pretty bad so I recorded audio only with a high quality mic instead.

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0MsLCXfN3SV

If you hear, the noise is more noticeable when RPMs fall, between 2-3k, there's no noise at idle or past 3k.

Thank you

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by peperino

Hey everyone, I'm new here, I have bought a '12 250R one week ago.

I made some maintenance work on it, coolant and oil changed.......

Welcome, Javi !!!

Don't make the common mistake of assuming the cause of the problems.
Test and verify, step by step.

If the engine was OK during the first week (how much did you ride?) and the noise started just after you replaced the oil, then the problem is the oil (what grade?), or the way in which you installed the filter.

It could also be that the noise was there before you bought the bike and that thicker oil was masking it.
The origin of engine's noises can be very diverse and hard to determine: bearings of connecting rods, valves, cam chain, clutch bearings of crankshaft, etc.
They show up at rpm's that create the maximum deviation from normal conditions.

Lubricating the CCT can never hurt, but I believe that noise due to the lack of tension on the chain does not show up suddenly, as explained above by others.

[peperino]

Yes, there was a little ticking noise before, but not as big as current one. This one is scary (did you listen my audio?)

I agree with you that maybe previous oil masked it.

Previous oil was Castrol Actevo 20w50 (semi syntetic)
Current oil is Shell AX7 15w50 (semi as well)

Previous filter was Mann 814, now Fram CH6012.

Should I change back to Castrol? Do you really think that the oil could be the culprit?

[Skullz]

Spring loaded CCT's are known to go bad over time and have even caused belts to break, and i would just replace the current one you have with the APE manual and never worry about it again. It does have the sound of the chain slapping around in there and letting you know it is wearing out.

[peperino]

Skullz do you think the chain could be bad too with 20k miles ?
Or only the CCT ?

Thank you

[Skullz]

Naw, the chain will be fine.
The CCT's our bikes have only allow for the tensioner to come out so far unlike the ones used in autos.

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by peperino

Skullz do you think the chain could be bad too with 20k miles ?
Or only the CCT ?

Thank you

Not Likely that the chain is worn out.

[peperino]

Alright. So APE CCT it is I guess.
As per the sound I sent, do you recognize that as the CCT being bad?

Thank you

[Skullz]

Trying to think how many miles i had on the bike when i replaced mine, but i do believe it was around the 20k mark give or take a few miles. I just think of it as an ounce of prevention.

[peperino]

Originally Posted by Skullz

Trying to think how many miles i had on the bike when i replaced mine, but i do believe it was around the 20k mark give or take a few miles. I just think of it as an ounce of prevention.

And your bike sounded like mine?

[Skullz]

Yeah

[peperino]

Originally Posted by Skullz

Yeah

Awesome thanks! I'm gonna buy the manual CCT. I wonder if it comes with the gasket

[Skullz]

Think they use an o-ring instead of a gasket.
Very well made pieces, and really easy to switch out.

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by APEmike

HEY! My cam chain tensioner! Im not the seller, he just happens to be a dealer of my company's parts...

The KT250 will take care of your problem. It fits 08-12 250 and 13-up 300.

The actual procedure to get correct tension is to put cylinder #1 to top dead center on the power stroke, remove the old tensioner carefully, install the manual CCT and tighten with your fingers till it makes contact with the chain. Back it off 1/4 turn and lock in place with the jam nut. Start the bike and if there is a little noise tighten VERY slowly till the noise goes away. You DONT want any actual tension as that will stretch the chain and wear out the guides in a hurry. The tensioner is just there to remove slack.

Be careful while you are removing the old one that it does not skip any teeth. Best to do it with the valve cover off if you can.

Would it retrofit on a older I ninja 250, or is it to different?

[APEmike]

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

Would it retrofit on a older I ninja 250, or is it to different?

WAY different.

As far as how long CCTs can last, some will never fail in the life of the bike, even past 300k miles. Some, like when the Yamaha FZ09 came out, failed on the showroom floor...

[HoneyBadgerRy]

Originally Posted by APEmike

WAY different.

As far as how long CCTs can last, some will never fail in the life of the bike, even past 300k miles. Some, like when the Yamaha FZ09 came out, failed on the showroom floor...

Well that's good to know before I wasted $50. I kinda wish it would fit though :/

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by peperino

Yes, there was a little ticking noise before, but not as big as current one. This one is scary (did you listen my audio?)

I agree with you that maybe previous oil masked it.

Previous oil was Castrol Actevo 20w50 (semi syntetic)
Current oil is Shell AX7 15w50 (semi as well)

Previous filter was Mann 814, now Fram CH6012.

Should I change back to Castrol? Do you really think that the oil could be the culprit?

I did listen to the audio.
Nothing to worry about: it happens during deceleration, when the valve train is resisting the slowing down of the crankshaft.

It is pretty warm in Buenos Aires now, so the 15w of the new oil makes no difference versus the 20w.
The SAE designation for multi-grade oils includes two viscosity grades: the first number (followed by w) is the viscosity of the oil at cold temperatures and the second number is the viscosity at water boiling point.

Are you sure that the oil filter was properly installed and the oil level properly set?
Please, read this:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Engine_Oil

[peperino]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Are you sure that the oil filter was properly installed and the oil level properly set?
Please, read this:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Engine_Oil

I would like to think so, I few years ago I had a zzr250 that has the same filter mechanism. The only thing that was missing was the washer between the spring and the filter. But if it wasn't before, it shouldn't have made a difference.

How could one not install it properly? It is pretty much straight how to install it.

Thank you

[jkv45]

Originally Posted by peperino

I would like to think so, I few years ago I had a zzr250 that has the same filter mechanism. The only thing that was missing was the washer between the spring and the filter. But if it wasn't before, it shouldn't have made a difference.

How could one not install it properly? It is pretty much straight how to install it.

Thank you

That stops the spring from digging into the rubber gasket on the filter - I would get one.

What could happen is pieces of rubber gasket could come off and get lodged in the oil screen, causing a reduced flow of oil. Have you checked the screen? It should be checked at least occasionally.

I would personally not run a 50 weight oil - no matter the ambient temp. There is no advantage to a heavier oil. 40 moves faster and carries heat away better - if that's your concern. In the old days, with air-cooled engines and poor conventional oil, running a heavy oil helped keep oil pressure when the oil broke-down from overheating. With a water-cooled engine and synthetic oil that's no longer a concern.

Info on cleaning the oil screen - http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Checking_the_oil_screen

Info on removing the CCT - http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Cam_cha...sioner_removal

[peperino]

Hi

The oil screen seems to be fine, but I will change the oil again to see what happens.

Thanks!

[peperino]

Alright, so I ordered the manual CCT from APE.

APEMike, it is strictly necessary to put the cylinder #1 in TDC to install it?
I guess I'll have to take the inspection window bolt out and look for a T1 mark?

Help is appreciated.

[spooph]

Shoot, wish I checked back earlier. Here's a DIY to rebuild your auto CCT:

https://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=247753

Your issue is definitely a loose cam chain. No, it's not dangerously loose, just starting to let you know to pay attention to it, as you are doing.

Something else to keep in mind is that the cam chain guides will have started wearing at this point. They should also be replaced if you want to do this "by the book", but many of us run with the worn ones for thousands of miles after this. Kawi was being very conservative when they designed the clearances for this. You'll have more than enough adjustment with the APE tensioner, just don't overtighten it or you'll cause more problems than leaving it loose and rattling.

[peperino]

My plan is to install the APE tensioner and in about 6k more miles adjust valves , replace chain and guide if necessary.

Thanks!

[spooph]

You can replace the guides when you do the valves, but you have to split the cases and lift the crank shaft out to replace the cam chain, so it's a good thing you caught it now. The cam chain should last indefinitely with proper maintenance and care.

[peperino]

Really? I thought it was meant to be replaced every X thousand of miles. I'll work on the valves and guides then and see if the chain holds up.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by peperino

........ and see if the chain holds up.

With proper lubrication, after mere 20K miles that chain should be almost new.
Cam chains serving over 100K miles are not uncommon for the old generation of Ninja 250.

The automatic tensioner should be able to keep its position without backing up (and producing slack); that is the function of a properly lubricated ratcheting mechanism.

Measuring the actual path of the chain (rather than any slack) is the way to diagnostic its condition.
Under some tension, 20-link length cannot measure more than 128.9 mm, according to the service manual.
The chain is a size 25 ANSI, which has 1/4" (6.35 mm) pitch and 0.130 in (3.30 mm) roller diameter.
Ten links in new condition should measure exactly 2-1/2".

The advantage of the manual tensioner is that the pressure of the OM spring-plunge is eliminated, and non-back up is a sure thing.
The only danger is over-tensing the chain or neglected periodic adjustment (every 5K miles or so).

You cannot stop the pistons at top while fighting compression; hence, the spark plugs should be removed and replaced at that time (at least cleaned and calibrated), while the tank is removed and they are so accessible.

[peperino]

Thanks Motofool, a lot of useful info there.

My APE is on its way, and I need to replace the spark plugs anyway so this is how my bike looks now xD

So you say that when installing the new tensioner I have to put the #1 cylinder (left?) in TDC or it is not necessary ?

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by peperino

Thanks Motofool, a lot of useful info there.

My APE is on its way, and I need to replace the spark plugs anyway so this is how my bike looks now xD

So you say that when installing the new tensioner I have to put the #1 cylinder (left?) in TDC or it is not necessary ?

You are welcome

As long as you don't rotate the cam shafts or the crankshaft during the replacement, everything will be good, regardless of position of the pistons.
Never turn anything backwards, not even once (normal rotation of shafts is clockwise when looking from left side of the engine).

It is useful to consider that during normal operation, the crankshaft forces the camshafts to rotate via pulling the cam chain, overcoming the resistance of the springs of the valves.

That way, there is a leg of the chain that is under tension (rear of the engine) while the other leg slacks (front of the engine, where the tensioner is located).

Nevertheless, the cams tend to reverse that situation momentarily.
That happens when each cam has passed its peak (has pressed the valve all the way down) and the force of the valve's spring makes the camshaft rotate faster than the crankshaft, putting tension on the tensioner's leg of the cam chain.

I recommend removing the valve's cover, so you can see what is happening with the chain.
This is useful reading about installation of manual tensioners:

http://www.kriegercamchaintensioners.com/

.... go to "About Tensioners"

.... go to "Common Directions"

[peperino]

I don't understand. APE says to rotate the engine while you screw the tensioner adjuster bolt.

I will probably go hand tight first and see if the noise is gone and go from there if necessary.

edit: forgot link

http://www.aperaceparts.com/tech/tensioners.html