New and CCT issues ?

[Skullz]

Finger tight on the threads, start the engine and listen to it with a few blips of the throttle, and in small increments adjust it while blipping the throttle a few times to listen for slack on the deceleration, once the sound is gone just tighten the lock nut and your done.

[peperino]

Originally Posted by Skullz

Finger tight on the threads, start the engine and listen to it with a few blips of the throttle, and in small increments adjust it while blipping the throttle a few times to listen for slack on the deceleration, once the sound is gone just tighten the lock nut and your done.

Thank you

[APEmike]

Actually, the full directions are this:

Put engine to top dead center on #1 cylinder

Remove old tensioner

Back adjuster bolt all the way out on APE CCT

Install in bike

Tighten by had till snug with 2 fingers

Back off 1/4 turn

Rotate engine b had to make sure valves dont hit pistons.

Test fire, occasionally you may need to adjust slightly at this point either tighter or looser, but it will be close enough that you dont skip teeth.

Lock the jamb nut down and enjoy peace of mind.

[hfd1 tuner]

Here is my 10 cents you are so close to the valve cover anyway why not pull it and check the valve lash and set tensioner with cover off and you can wiggle cam chain and see what is really up...

[peperino]

For some unknown reason I'm afraid of pulling the cover

But your advice is very reasonable! I'll try to convince myself

[hfd1 tuner]

it is just screws No dancing girls will jump out......

[peperino]

Awwww. No motivation then.

Will consult with my pillow.

[peperino]

I've read mixed details about the procedure (check valves), some say rotate cw, other cc. Which one is correct? Thanks

[hfd1 tuner]

to check valve lash all that matters is you check it on the base circle of the cam. The tensioner is different the chain slack needs to be on the tensioner side

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by hfd1 tuner

to check valve lash all that matters is you check it on the base circle of the cam. The tensioner is different the chain slack needs to be on the tensioner side

Ahhh.....THIS! How many hours have I saved by simply pointing the lobes straight up rather than lining up all the marks per the book??

[peperino]

Sorry I'm slow to understand. What you mean ?

[SLOWn60]

Originally Posted by peperino

Sorry I'm slow to understand. What you mean ?

If the cam lobes are on a valve; the chain is under tension. You want the chain slack.

[peperino]

Alright, so to change the CCT lobes pointing any way but down, right.

And for checking the valves, turn the engine CW or CC?
And align marks on stator right?

[SLOWn60]

I don't want to say as I've not checked valves on my 250 yet.
I was trying to clarify the answer to your question about the lobe position for chain slack when doing the CCT.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by peperino

Alright, so to change the CCT lobes pointing any way but down, right.

And for checking the valves, turn the engine CW or CC?
And align marks on stator right?

To check the valves the lobes need to be in the same position as the tensioner....any way but down. Preferably pointing up and out of the engine so they aren't in your way.

Turn the engine CW, the same way the crank turns with the engine running.

[hfd1 tuner]

Originally Posted by peperino

Alright, so to change the CCT lobes pointing any way but down, right.

And for checking the valves, turn the engine CW or CC?
And align marks on stator right?

Think we are talking about two different things here.
1. CCT install I prefer to install them with the valve cover OFF after a valve lash check so I can keep my eye on the cams and the alignment marks. It is ideal to have the cams in placement with the least pressure acting on the cam chain. I.E lobes UP and NOT pushing the valves down. I have tools ready to make the swap from old cct to the new one next to me. I then remove bolts and push down on the cam chain with my finger to act as a tensioner while the old tensioner is being removed. Yes the cams will roll a little. Deal with all the old gasket stuff clean is good. You should have all parts ready to install with new gasket. I have the Manual cct backed off with new gasket on it before I remove old cct. Install new cct and bolts use fingers to spin manual cct bolt and you will feel it start to push your other finger that has been holding the chain slack up as it makes contact with chain guide/ Ok now the cams should roll back into place as you continue to turn tensioner bolt in. You set the slack between the cams by wiggle the chain like you would the drive chain for the rear wheel. You want it with a little wiggle up and down . Sorry but it is a feel thing for me. I am saying 5-10 mm up and down movement roll engine over by hand a few turns and check your cam marks are good.

2. Valve lash check. On the 250 I roll the engine so the cam lobe is up then slide the feeler guage between the cam lobe and the bucket. Record measurement on paper . I draw a picture with circles indicating number of valves for cylinder 1 and 2. Do this for all valves. If adjustment is needed I get all my marks lined so I can place cams in the same spot after I pull the caps. This is where a Manual cct comes in very handy back off tensioner bolt to allow removal of cam chain. Pull cams out grab the bucket with magnet Look at shim number and in the repair manual they have a chart to help you choose the right shim to make the adjustment. here is a tip one size equals .002 thousandths i.e 150 to 155 is .002 thou tighter 150 to 152 is .001 but you only get half sizes at dealer some manufactures sell them in tenths i.e 201/202/203 ect. but that is splitting hairs. The idea on valve adjustment is NOT tight need room for valve to make full seat contact hot. You really do not need to place cam caps or the cam chain back on just hold the cam with the lobes up with one hand pushing down on cam slide feeler gauge in check that you have right shim move to next valve repeat as needed. Get your chain back on start with the camshaft away from cct side the exhaust cam get the mark in the right place loosely fit the cap wiggle it into place there is groove on cam that goes in cap. start the bolts into head install the intake cam the same. Use the MANAL cct to remove the chain slack some goal is to keep chain from slipping on gears I use finger on the chain to push down while tighten bolts in a pattern that pulls cam cap down evenly so you do not crack the cap .I.E. little on one end little on other end little in middle Take your time here it is easy to get everything in a bind do not force it down it should go smooth you will feel the chain getting tight with your finger then do other cam cap you should have slack in chain when you get caps fitted just turn CCT bolt in to remove slack. Check your marks are good use torque wrench on the cap bolts. Turn engine over by hand a few turns check marks are in the same spot install top chain guide and valve cover. clean up install all items removed on bike. Ride it.

The 'Huffdaddy" disclaimer here: If you are not able to fully understand what is going on at any point in a labor operation that YOU or others helping YOU are performing on YOUR motorcycle that YOU will be riding PLEASE seek a mechanic that does. I am not trying to scare you from working on your bike but remember it is YOUR skin and broken bones if it breaks and you go boom.

[peperino]

Ok thank you.
I pulled the cover

But I couldn't measure the right cylinder.

I rotate the engine until the camshafts were aligned in the flywheel with the 2T mark and in the camshaft gears the two lines were even, like

https://goo.gl/photos/E2qgyuFsYw5N95tK6
https://goo.gl/photos/Mpv5q5zEjqsjTM2N7

With this position, I couldn't fit almost any feeler gauge, I tried 0.15 and 0.10 but they won't go in. What I'm doing wrong here?

Then, I measured left cylinder, by aligning 1T mark with the lobes pointing away from the bucket like this

https://goo.gl/photos/royJ7vcphG6ZSbjQ6


This gave me a reading, but weird one, as folows:

Intake1: 0.21mm
Intake2: 0.22mm

Exhaust1: 0.20mm
Exhaust2: 0.20mm

Are my intakes close to the upper limit and my exhausts way off the lower limit?

Help!

Thank you!

[2fiddy-trackpair]

Just a prop for APE tensioners. I had a CBR 600 F4I that had the dreaded timing chain rattle. Installed an APE manual tensioner and never had another problem from that bike, ever.

[hfd1 tuner]

exhaust valves are the ones that get tight the most. Make sure you are checking the lash with the lobe facing up. The cam ramp angle starts way before the lobe is facing down so if lobe is on its side facing cam you could be tight on lash. Base of circle is the part that you measure unless it is a rocker arm type them are different.

[peperino]

Will double check thank you. How do you manage to measure #2 cylinder? It is very tight space.

[spooph]

Very carefully. Keep in mind, you will have to turn the engine to point the lobes out away from the buckets for every valve.

I also like to give the engine a full revolution between each valve measurement to make sure the bucket has seated as best it can and give the best, most accurate reading.

If you want to do this in a very easy way, put the engine at cylinder 2 TDC and remove the cam cap cover bolts. Lift them out and pull the chain off of them, then you can freely spin them. Make sure not to lift them off of their carriers with shims between the lobes and buckets. If you dab oil in the journals you'll see the oil disappear when you lift the cam with a feeler gauge. I use this method when I'm getting some very weird readings.

If you're not comfortable with that, that's totally OK and keep going as you are, however, one thing will definitely help you - put a little bit of oil on the feeler gauges and they will slide in easier. Also, never forget their name - feeler gauges - this is all done by feel. If it's super tight, keep going smaller and smaller until you have a nice easy feel, similar to what your skin feels like after a fresh shave.

I've seen valves as tight as .09 before, so sometimes they can wear a lot! Trust your instruments!

[peperino]

Thanks for the advice.
I'd prefer to not remove the caps until I realize there's some adjustment needed.

Do you think it's possible that the feeler gauge is hitting something else and not going fully in between the bucket and camshaft? With the tight space is hard to see.

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by peperino

Thanks for the advice.
I'd prefer to not remove the caps until I realize there's some adjustment needed.

Do you think it's possible that the feeler gauge is hitting something else and not going fully in between the bucket and camshaft? With the tight space is hard to see.

Yes. Gauge needs to be inserted parallel to the lobe. Doing it at an angle can hit things.

You can also get some stepped gauges. These help immensely for people new to adjusting valves. They are actually two different thicknesses....here's a pic for reference. The tip is thinner than the main bar...this will allow to go in so far and then stop. This will help you get an idea of what the proper feel is when adjusting valves.

[peperino]

Ok, I might be hitting things then. Gonna try again!

[hfd1 tuner]

Yes Kawasaki has made it hard to get to them.. This is going to make people thing I am wrong but it works.. I set the lash with the caps off and no cam chain on the cams. You can see the lobes and there is a spot where you can have cam in head and no pressure on the buckets. I just hold cam in with finger pressure and slide feeler gauge in with other hand. Now granted I have done thousands of valve lash adjustments in my 40 plus years turning wrenches and know the feel of the correct feeler gauge. Do both intake and exhaust at one time and then install cam chain and tensioner then beverage of choice

[peperino]

I don't know. I would like to avoid taking the caps off if it is not necessary. But I hear you

[peperino]

Question about the assembly once you replaced the shims.

As the crankcraft turns twice every camshaft turn, how do I know if the 2T mark is the correct one and I'm not a revolution off when putting everything together ?

Thank you

[spooph]

Originally Posted by peperino

Question about the assembly once you replaced the shims.

As the crankcraft turns twice every camshaft turn, how do I know if the 2T mark is the correct one and I'm not a revolution off when putting everything together ?

Thank you

The 2T mark is indexed to the marks on the cams.

So, if the engine is at 2T, and the intake cam goes back to the intake cam, and the exhaust cam goes back to the exhaust cam slot, and the marks on the back of the cam gear is lined up with the top of the head, you'll be on the correct revolution of the engine.

[peperino]

Alright but, let's put an example.

Let's suppose I measure and find that the gap needs adjustment. I take out the camshafts, replace shims, and while I do this, the 2T mark moves a bit. So I align 2T again, but instead of the same 2T as before, I mistakenly turn the engine the other way. So when putting everything back together the 2T mark will be there, camshaft markings will be there, but pistons NOT in the place the are supposed to be?

Will my engine blow up or I'm not understanding something?

Thanks!

[RacinNinja]

THe piston goes down and up every 360 degrees. There's only ONE 2T mark on the crank, right? This means, no matter if it's turned 360 or not, the piston will always be UP.

[peperino]

Got cha.

Line em marks them

Thanksss

[peperino]

I have the gauges and micrometer.

Tomorrow is the day!

I also received my APE tensioner

[peperino]

Ok, please support me guys

Is this the correct position to measure cyl #1 ?
I don't have any marks on the flywheel at that position but I'm guessing it's ok because valves are closed. Please confirm

At that position, i got this readings from #1

IN1: 0.21
IN2: 0.23

EX1: 0.18
EX2: 0.18

These sound reasonable? Would seem exhausts need adjustment while intakes are mid/up of the range.

[spooph]

This is the correct position to measure Cylinder 1 intake, to measure the exhaust side I would turn it clockwise another 1/4 turn so that the lobe faces away from the bucket on the exhaust side.

Keep in mind, you only measure 2 valves at a time. So, in this case, you're set up to measure cylinder 1, intake 1 and 2.
Then you turn the engine so that the exhaust side is properly lined up and measure cylinder 1, exhaust 1 and 2.
Then you turn the engine so that the intake on cylinder 2 is properly lined up, measure cylinder 2, intake 1 and 2.
Turn the engine so that cylinder 2's exhaust valves are properly lined up and measure Cylinder 2, exhaust 1 and 2.

Then you have accurate measurements. Put the crank at the 2T mark and remove the cam cap covers.

Measure the shims inside, do the math to figure out which shims the need to be replaced with (make sure you do it in the right direction), replace shims.

Put the cam cap covers back on and go through the same process to measure all of them and verify they are correct.

[peperino]

Ok thank you.
I messed up anyway

I tried to pull the exhaust cap with the 2T mark in place, but the lobes were pointing down so they were making force on the cap and it cracked.

So my conclusion is that is not enough for the 2T mark to be there, the lobes also has to be up so the valves are closed. I'm not sure I've read this anywhere, everywhere says just put the 2T mark in the flywheel.

Photos: 1.How my lobes were when I tried (and it won't budge) to remove the exhaust cap. 2. The cracked cap

Anyway. Live and learn I guess

[RacinNinja]

Originally Posted by spooph

This is the correct position to measure Cylinder 1 intake, to measure the exhaust side I would turn it clockwise another 1/4 turn so that the lobe faces away from the bucket on the exhaust side.

Keep in mind, you only measure 2 valves at a time. So, in this case, you're set up to measure cylinder 1, intake 1 and 2.
Then you turn the engine so that the exhaust side is properly lined up and measure cylinder 1, exhaust 1 and 2.
Then you turn the engine so that the intake on cylinder 2 is properly lined up, measure cylinder 2, intake 1 and 2.
Turn the engine so that cylinder 2's exhaust valves are properly lined up and measure Cylinder 2, exhaust 1 and 2.

Then you have accurate measurements. Put the crank at the 2T mark and remove the cam cap covers.

Measure the shims inside, do the math to figure out which shims the need to be replaced with (make sure you do it in the right direction), replace shims.

Put the cam cap covers back on and go through the same process to measure all of them and verify they are correct.

Mmmm...not quite. If the piston is approaching, at, or just past TDC on the compression stroke, all 4 valves will be closed and can be measured. Pretty much the entire compression stroke they can all 4 be measured, depending on cam lobe location (as long as the lobe isn't on the bucket or follower). You only need to measure from the base circle.

Even the manual tells you to measure all 4 at once. This is the correct position to measure all 4 valves on cylinder 1 as the lobes are all pointing away from the buckets.

[spooph]

@peperino - yes, that is how the cams are when your positioned on the T2 mark, and yes, the exhaust valves are under tension. There is no way around it other than to be really careful. I've found it's best to remove the bolt furthest from the cam chain and then remove the bolts closest to the cam chain. Also, in reality, you can still continue to use the broken cam cap cover as long as the crack isn't anywhere near the bearing surface holding the cams in place. Of course, for peace of mind, replacement would be the best bet.
@RacinNinja - you're right, however, in my experience I get much more accurate and consistent result if I make sure to turn each set of valves before measuring. This also has the added benefit of adding some oil into the mix which makes it easier for the feeler gauges to get in there and such. I have run into a situation of inconsistent reading when I pull the feeler gauge back out if the cam lobe is on it's side, like cylinder 1, exhaust 1 &2 would be in peperino's photo above.

I guess to me it's neither here nor there. Do it either way, I personally just like to have 100% trust in my readings and or somebody without a lot of experience, it might prove to add that 1-2% certainty in the end?