Rotella T Change

[headshrink]

I went to pick up some Shell Rottela T Syth oil today from my local Wally World (only place I have found it at), and was confused by some differences in the labels. At first it looked like they may have just redesigned the label, as one looks more modern (from a design perspective) and the name is exactly the same. But then I noticed some slight differences in the descriptions, but it is all Greek to me.... and yes, I have read lots of those technical articles on oil, which were helpful, but much of it is still a little over my head.

Has there been changes to the product, or is this merely a label/marketing change?

Here are some pics. to compare


The old rear label


The new rear label (doesn't mention gasoline engines, and the certs look a little different. Sorry it is a little blurry.

[Alex]

The newer label still says it meets "gasoline engine applications", it's just down lower in the text. Looks to me like one of them was produced in 2004, and the other in 2008. Odds are it's some pretty similar stuff inside, but it's certainly conceivable that the formula was modified in minor ways over that time period.

[headshrink]

You're right.... I read it over several times but still didn't see it until you pointed it out. Thanks Alex.

[g21-30]

Bob,

I'm glad you posted this, because I bought a gallon of the New oil a couple of months ago, in order to change my bike's oil at 2000 miles.



The right label is from the NEW oil, while the left is from the OLD. If the lower half of the label contained "energy conserving", you shouldn't use the oil in a wet clutch environment. The general consensus was to only use the oil, if the lower half of the label was "blank!"

See this for more info:

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10346

[kkim]

http://www.aa1car.com/library/API_ratings.pdf

[g21-30]

The following FAQ and response came from this Shell link:

http://www.shell.com/home/PlainPageS...xpert_faq.html


Can heavy-duty diesel oil be used in motorcycles?


Motorcycle gasoline engines may not seem in the same league as the big displacement diesel engine under your hood, but they share some of the same lubrication requirements. So yes, in many cases, a premium heavy-duty universal oil capable of serving both diesel and gasoline engines is the best choice for your bike.

The high power-to-displacement ratio of a motorcycle engine means rod and main bearings are subjected to loads that are not normally found in passenger car engines. The valve train is also highly loaded, and requires extreme pressure boundary lubrication. The same can be said about gears in the transmission, which are normally lubricated by engine oil. Oil additives containing phosphorus protect these highly loaded extreme pressure areas (in both gasoline and diesel engines). Because diesel engines have higher loading of components, more of the phosphorus-containing additive is present than in typical passenger car oils. And with advanced catalyst systems for gasoline engines, the phosphorus content has been declining in passenger car oils.

Since many bike engines are air-cooled, and tend to be operated at high power outputs and speeds, their lubricating oil needs to be more resistant to high temperature oxidation. That?s another advantage of a premium universal oil. Another thing you want in your motorcycle is oil that has excellent viscosity control, so that with use it retains high temperature viscosity. Some multiviscosity grade passenger car oils, subjected to extreme loads, can quickly thin out. Their viscosity can drop to the next lower grade.

One last thing to consider is whether oil contains friction modifier additives. For improved fuel economy, most passenger car oils have such an additive. But the wet clutch in your bike doesn?t perform right with friction modifiers. Universal engine oils don?t have friction modifiers.

Be careful choosing diesel oils. Not all of them are universal. In addition to the API Service Category CI-4 PLUS for diesels, look for API Service Category SL.

Premium universal oils like Shell ROTELLA? T Multigrade are formulated for heavy-duty performance, and your bike engine has some heavy-duty challenges for oil. For optimum performance, be sure your oil is up to the challenge.

[kkim]

One last thing to consider is whether oil contains friction modifier additives. For improved fuel economy, most passenger car oils have such an additive. But the wet clutch in your bike doesn?t perform right with friction modifiers. Universal engine oils don?t have friction modifiers.

Be careful choosing diesel oils. Not all of them are universal. In addition to the API Service Category CI-4 PLUS for diesels, look for API Service Category SL.

Nowhere in there does it say that CI-4 Plus has modifiers in there or am I missing something?

[headshrink]

Based on every thing I have read online, from multiple sources, they all unanimously agree that Rotella T is good stuff in most motorcycles.... at least that is the layman's version. I haven't seen any threads or articles, however, on any change made to the oil or simply a change in the label. I doubt I am the first, I just haven't found one. I'll continue to assume it is good stuff, based on others feedback, and thus far my own experience. Although it didn't seem sig. better in shifting during my first 500-800mi., the next 1500 miles have been much nicer than dino that I have used until now (Motul, and Valvoline). I wish I made the switch 10k miles ago!

Has anyone seen anything negative about the Rotella (not counting the synthetic myth perpetrated by my stealership)?

[MtnCruiser]

I've used nothing but Rotella T in my last 6 bikes and I have no problems whatsoever. That probably on the neighborhood of 90 - 100k all total.

[Sailariel]

I use Rotella-T Synthetic in the Ninja, my 07 Vibe, my 95 Suburban 6.5L Turbo Diesel, and my Yanmar diesel auxiliary in my sailboat. I have never had any problems.

[baatfam]

Originally Posted by headshrink

...(not counting the synthetic myth perpetrated by my stealership)?

Pray tell, what is the "synthetic myth"???

Just curious...

Bob t.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by baatfam

Pray tell, what is the "synthetic myth"???

Just curious...

Bob t.

My ex-stealer (they closed last week), was afraid of synth... they believe it burns clutches. Their point of reference was a factory race dirt bike that would go through a clutch a race..... according to them.

I figure they may know basic motorcycle mech, but when it comes to specific models, I think hobbyist who spend their days/nights on these forums researching the minutia of their specific model have the leg-up on a stealer/mechanic.

[Sailariel]

The service manager at the biggest MC dealership in Maine has no problem with Rotella-T Synthetic. He also races a `Busa.

[ScorpionNinja]

Heh, the stealership i bought my Nate from (K&W cycle)...

The parts manager told me "Nah, just use regular Kawi 4T Oil and youll be Fine, ive heard guys coming in here complaining their Clutches are slipping due to using those Synthetics".
ROFL pffft right there that dude shouldve said

"Well if you use a Oil and on the API rating is states 'Energy-Conserving" Dont use it in your motorcycle..." Then id be happier and more trustful of the Mechs and Parts Staff there when it comes to later Work done to my Nate, cuz its beyond my Mech IQ & i dont have those special Tools,etc to fix Nate the right way!

days after i had them do the 600 mile oil change & chain adjustment/Lube ($97 OTD) i know.. lol... but i took it in for that 'Front wheel noise/SQUEEEEK', they had NO IDEA about it. They tried cleaning the front rotors/brake pads,speedo cable.. etc! It wasnt till I FOUND this site and did the Research to find out the Front Axle Bearing is OVERTIGHTENED from factory sometimes.... so since then ive been weary of UN-trustful of having any K&W mech/tech Even Look at my NATE!

PS. Im looking to go to a Trade school, learn to be a motorcycle mechanic. So im hoping once im done with school, the Economy will still need motorcycle mechs in demand... with motorcycle sales good, as ppl are looking for better means of MPG and communning to work and such!

That and i just really like working on my Nate.... i think i finally found a 'career' to go to school for.

[headshrink]

If motorcycle sales were good, the local shop here would still be open. There were those high MPG new riders, but for the most part, sales are way down.

[ScorpionNinja]

Originally Posted by headshrink

If motorcycle sales were good, the local shop here would still be open. There were those high MPG new riders, but for the most part, sales are way down.

i guess i meant to say that... to me it seems motorcycles should sell better in the future. So i think getting a motorcycle Mech. job would be great, ya know what i mean? Yes better MPG cars and stuff will get more popular in the future,but id like to think Pound for Pound, a motorcycles MPG, MSRP is cheaper then some new $25,000-$30,000 Hybrid.. ya know? heh

Anyways, ill know how to fix my own **** professionally, and you cant put a Price on that!

Also to tie into my Artistic side, fuse with my new Passion for motorcycles... ill take some classes to learn the Lost Art of Freehand Pinstripping, also to make those Vinyl graphics we all Love to put on our bikes! I could do this on the side for alil extra paper, aside from making custom bad-ass Graphix on my Ninja later on!

[headshrink]

I just got back from my first ride since I changed my oil (2nd time using Rottela, 1st since using the NEW bottle). Now I don't want to perpetuate any synth/clutch myths, nor do I want to be prematurely paranoid (which some that know me may think I can lean in that direction...no pun), BUT about 20-30 miles in I noticed my RPMS and speed did not match up. In 6th, 8k RPM is usually ~70 iMPH, 9K is ~80 iMPH. I looked down, saw 8K at 60 iMPH and figured I must be in 5th..... I wasn't, I was in 6th. I tried to wrap it up to 9K RPM/80 iMPH, but the speed didn't seem to increase at the rate I am used to, and it looked like the tach was going to hit 9K before being close to 80 iMPG. I wasn't on the freeway, so I had to back off.... I'll go out on the freeway later tonight, but I'm not to happy about th possibilities here.

I am guessing one of the first responses will be in relation to the 250r CDI issues, but I thought of that, and this is not consistent with the behavior I have seen from MY CDI. I had a minor "bounce" from last fall to this spring, but it virtually stopped this summer. And no bouncing today. Today's behavior is totally new for my bike (at 11,000 miles and change BTW). The reason I put this in this thread is because changing from the OLD bottle of Rotella to the NEW bottle is the last thing I did to my bike (actually it was one bottle of OLD label, and 6-7/10ths of NEW label).

[Alex]

There's nothing oil can do to change your tach readings.

[kkim]

I think he's worried his clutch is slipping.

[Alex]

Clutches don't slip that way. If it were clutch slip, as soon as you let off the gas in the slightest the rpms would come back to match, as the clutch stopped slipping. The ninjette doesn't have enough torque to slip a clutch no matter what oil we put in them; it's only a problem on some very torquey bikes with some very low-tech clutches (Bandit 1200 comes to mind).

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by kkim

I think he's worried his clutch is slipping.

If there was an emoticon that was touching it's nose with one hand, and pointing at you with the other, that is what I would use here. Yes, that's it, you got it!

And Alex, thanks - that does kinda make sense too..... actually that makes a lot of sense. Although it would be strange if my CDI/tach started doing this TODAY all of a sudden.

[kkim]

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/sho....php?t=676694&

EDIT- is your clutch cable adjusted properly?

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by kkim

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/sho....php?t=676694&

EDIT- is your clutch cable adjusted properly?

As far as I know it is fine. I'll check it before my test ride.... that is as soon as my kidneys are done.

[kkim]

next ride record the rpms at 50,60,70 mph in 6th gear.

[headshrink]

Kelly, you saved the day - thank you. It was the clutch cable. I probably wouldn't have thought of that, since I haven't ever had it contract on me before. It stretched a lot when new, but I haven't had to touch it in a while. I gave it some slack, but it doesn't quite have the "slack" it is supposed to have, since the tension from the spring in the tranny isn't supper strong. All the speed/RPMS have gone back to normal though, but I'll keep an eye on it for a while.

[Alex]

I'm glad the issue seems to be licked, but I don't get it. What could possibly have been wrong with the clutch cable that would have caused RPMs to be different a consistent amount? The two corner cases would be if it was too loose, the clutch wouldn't fully release and shifting would be clunky; the other case would be it's too tight, and it would be prone to slipping under torque if the plates weren't fully engaged. If it were the first option, it wouldn't affect the RPM's, and if it were the second option, it would behave like a slipping clutch. I.E. the rider gives it more throttle and the revs go up while the bike doesn't accelerate; feels like a motorboat. A slipping clutch doesn't change 8k at 60 mph to 9k at 60 mph. Doesn't work that way. If the rider gives it enough throttle to start the clutch slipping, in just about all cases it will continue to slip at a faster rate all the way up the rev range until the rider lets off the throttle. It's not a subtle thing, it's instanty noticeable.

[headshrink]

I don't know what it is, but it started again today after ~15-20min in 100 degree weather (Bike was at about 210ish degrees). The clutch was definitely tight the first time (I think), but didn't seem too tight when I got home.

[randomwalk101]

Originally Posted by headshrink

I don't know what it is, but it started again today after ~15-20min in 100 degree weather (Bike was at about 210ish degrees). The clutch was definitely tight the first time (I think), but didn't seem too tight when I got home.

Here is a solution to all of your problems:

Seroquel 50mg BID

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by randomwalk101

Here is a solution to all of your problems:

Seroquel 50mg BID

It feels like I lose power.... like the RPM reading is correct at these lower speeds and I have less "headroom". If I don't figure it out, I won't get to enjoy my joyrides PRN.

[kevins_garage]

Originally Posted by headshrink

I don't know what it is, but it started again today after ~15-20min in 100 degree weather (Bike was at about 210ish degrees). The clutch was definitely tight the first time (I think), but didn't seem too tight when I got home.

There was likely nothing wrong with your clutch or cable the first time. The CDI/tach issue is primarily a temperature based issue. When the CDI gets warm enough (either from riding or just hot enough ambient temp) the tach will not read accurately.

My bike seems to be fine when the temps are below 80 deg F and I only take short rides here and there. If I ride for more than a half hour or so, or the temp is above 80 and into the 90's or higher, the CDI heats up and the tach acts up. Some have reported loss of power and rough running as well.

File a complaint with NHTSA - the more the better - hopefully we can force Kawi to recall the POS CDI.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by kevins_garage

There was likely nothing wrong with your clutch or cable the first time. The CDI/tach issue is primarily a temperature based issue. When the CDI gets warm enough (either from riding or just hot enough ambient temp) the tach will not read accurately.

My bike seems to be fine when the temps are below 80 deg F and I only take short rides here and there. If I ride for more than a half hour or so, or the temp is above 80 and into the 90's or higher, the CDI heats up and the tach acts up.

Since you have PMs disabled, have you checked this out?

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26765

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by kevins_garage

There was likely nothing wrong with your clutch or cable the first time. The CDI/tach issue is primarily a temperature based issue. When the CDI gets warm enough (either from riding or just hot enough ambient temp) the tach will not read accurately.

My bike seems to be fine when the temps are below 80 deg F and I only take short rides here and there. If I ride for more than a half hour or so, or the temp is above 80 and into the 90's or higher, the CDI/tach act up.

Yes.... this is exactly that I would think if it where anyone else's bike. What puzzles me is that this is a change in my bike's M.O.
But, it does make sense.

I'll wait for it again, but like I mentioned, it "feels" like the RPM is literally as high as it says, although if that where true, it SHOULDN'T go that slow.... for mechanical reasons.... so I guess it can't be true. But it does seem to loose the power to increase. If it were reading artificially low, I wonder if it would hit the REV limiter early.

[kevins_garage]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Since you have PMs disabled, have you checked this out?

http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26765

I have a blackberry - it is easier for me to receive/respond to e-mails than PM's.

That's an interesting option to use a pre-gen CDI, but not everyone is going to feel comfortable modding their wire harness. Further, not everyone is going to welcome paying out of pocket to fix Kawi's screw ups.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by headshrink

But it does seem to loose the power to increase. If it were reading artificially low, I wonder if it would hit the REV limiter early.

The CDI controls what the tach is seeing; therefore, it holds that the REV limiter would take effect at whatever it's factory setting is. In other words, the REV limiter doesn't know the engine is possibly turning slower than the REV limiter is being told.

As I stated in my DIY replacement of the CDI, the CDI REALLY GETS HOT where it is mounted, plus it is partially enclosed in a rubber housing.

I'm willing to bet you're experiencing what many others have aready been thru.

[g21-30]

Originally Posted by kevins_garage

Further, not everyone is going to welcome paying out of pocket to fix Kawi's screw ups.

Even if they take the bike in under warranty, it's still going to cost them in terms of time, etc. That's why I bit the bullet and did the mod. I was actually tempted to start producing a "plug 'n play" conversion harness, kind of like the "no cut brake modulator". It is just that simple.

[headshrink]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Even if they take the bike in under warranty, it's still going to cost them in terms of time, etc. That's why I bit the bullet and did the mod. I was actually tempted to start producing a "plug 'n play" conversion harness, kind of like the "no cut brake modulator". It is just that simple.

That is not a bad idea.... especially for those not under warranty anymore, as well as those who want to "protect" their warranty by not hacking into the harness.

[g21-30]

Bob,

There is another option I was going to try. Make a wiring harness "extension" and move the CDI to the front of the radiator. The CDI is a sealed unit and the wiring connector is very weather resistant. One of my "goofy" ideas was to use a ziplock bag full of ice and place on the CDI and go for a ride. Of course, I was going to time how long before the RPMs started going up with ice versus no ice. Didn't do it.

If you decide to do the mod, let me know and I will help you as much as I can.

[kevins_garage]

Originally Posted by g21-30

Even if they take the bike in under warranty, it's still going to cost them in terms of time, etc. That's why I bit the bullet and did the mod. I was actually tempted to start producing a "plug 'n play" conversion harness, kind of like the "no cut brake modulator". It is just that simple.

I wasn't suggesting anyone has to take their bike in for warranty if they don't want to.

I think it's great to find fixes for common problems/issues that can crop up over time and be able to address them in reasonably cost effective ways.

This issue is a design/manufacturing problem however and really should be corrected by Kawi. It's a shame that they are essentially ignoring it, but I guess it's only a minor inconvenience for most people and it really hasn't led to any injuries/deaths or made the radar of the environmental wackos, so there's really no incentive yet for Kawi to address it.

Watch your six as far as potential liability issues if you decide to produce/sell a "plug and play kit". There's already a certain amount of liability assumed when you post up instructions online about how to do stuff, but you take it to a whole new level when you actually sell the product directly to people.

[g21-30]

That's funny. I'm always watching my six, along with my 12, 3, 9, and all points in between!