ninja timing/no start help

beenselock · September 21st, 2012, 04:27 PM

ok so i recently bought an 09 ninja that had been previously "worked on" by some kid who wanted a weekend project but he gave up when he couldnt get the bike to start so he was selling it really cheap, enter me. ive cleaned the carbs twice and i know theyre delievering fuel and even if they werent ive tried starting fluid to boot and have no results, ive also pulled the plugs and held them against the block and deffinetly have spark , also i dont have a compression tester but ive rather barbarically stuck my finger in the spark plug hole and turned the engine over with it in there, with mine and a buddys almost brand new 250 to compare so im confident in compression though a little doubtful because i cant find a gauge that will fit this thing (i mostly work with cars). now, ive pulled the valve cover and downloaded the service manual and by their manual the cam timing is correct however this thing still refuses. this kid was obviously inside of this engine and my question is if he was and if he removed the flywheel on the left side near the stator could he of reinstalled it backwards so when its telling me this engine is at 2TDC its really at one? also which cylinder is number 1? any help would be greatly appreciated.

alex.s · September 21st, 2012, 04:37 PM

i would look at more common issues like the valve/cam clearance. what kind of intake and exhaust does it have? i believe its wasted spark so electrical timing shouldnt be an issue if its a clean 180 flip? and if its not slamming valves into the piston or exploding things...

edit: i think my mind is trapped in 2-stroke mode with the 180 flip not effecting it. i believe there are marks on the crank and wheel as well as the cams and cam sprockets. you should be able to tell by looking at them.

if i remember right cylinder one is closest to the cam sprockets

beenselock · September 21st, 2012, 04:42 PM

ive checked the cam sprockets and theyre fine, they were off and i redid them myself however when it still wouldnt start is when i started wondering about this flywheel and maybe having it and therefore the timing mark 180d. i havent checked valve clearance, i will definitely do that. thank you for your help

alex.s · September 21st, 2012, 04:53 PM

i would try to track down a motorcycle compression tester, check cyclegear or motorcycle superstore or something. that will cut your search in half at least.

removing the fly wheel is a big job that you wouldn't often do. i would try to eliminate as many possibilities before hand

beenselock · September 21st, 2012, 04:55 PM

believe me in trying to, i just wouldnt put it past the previous owner and i know he was in the engine. ill start looking for a compression tester or an adapter for one of mine

beenselock · September 21st, 2012, 04:57 PM

and if cylinder one is the side with the cam sprockets, the timing marks on this flywheel are definitely backwards. this was sup post to be a clean carbs and go have fun project, ugh.

Motofool · September 21st, 2012, 05:58 PM

Each cylinder sees an additional spark during the exhaust stroke.

The alternator rotor can't be misplaced since there is a key that fixes its position respect to the conical end of the crankshaft.

I agree, the valve clearance is a more common problem, as well as carburetor problems.

If your finger can't hold the compression of each cylinder, it is good enough to start.

If the gaps of the spark plugs and the sensor coil are at 0.7 mm and the spark can jump more than 7 mm between naked wire and ground, the ignition is healthy.

The pistons are numbered beginning with the engine left side, looking from the rider's seat.

The 2T mark is not for spark timing but for cam position.

beenselock · September 21st, 2012, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motofool

Each cylinder sees an additional spark during the exhaust stroke.

The alternator rotor can't be misplaced since there is a key that fixes its position respect to the conical end of the crankshaft.

I agree, the valve clearance is a more common problem, as well as carburetor problems.

If your finger can't hold the compression of each cylinder, it is good enough to start.

If the gaps of the spark plugs and the sensor coil are at 0.7 mm and the spark can jump more than 7 mm between naked wire and ground, the ignition is healthy.

The pistons are numbered beginning with the engine left side, looking from the rider's seat.

The 2T mark is not for spark timing but for cam position.

sweet, thank you

02337 · September 21st, 2012, 06:49 PM

If you still want a compression tester I know advance auto sells one with adapters for like $40. Comes with a pouch and adapters and replacement I rings. If you order online and do I store pick you can use a coupon(I try to be thrifty). I've used on my vws and a few bikes(with included adapter).
Just FYI

Edit: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00020BM28
That's the one I picked up from advance(they're sites down atm)

flynjay · September 21st, 2012, 07:48 PM

If it has spark and compression, the last thing to check is fuel.

You said you have already cleaned the carbs, have you checked that the petcock is open and working. You could turn it to PRI and fuel should flow. Verify fuel is getting to the carbs by draining the float bowls trying to start it and then draining them again.

If all that doesn't work then hunt down a compression tester that works because that is all that is left.

beenselock · September 21st, 2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flynjay

If it has spark and compression, the last thing to check is fuel.

You said you have already cleaned the carbs, have you checked that the petcock is open and working. You could turn it to PRI and fuel should flow. Verify fuel is getting to the carbs by draining the float bowls trying to start it and then draining them again.

If all that doesn't work then hunt down a compression tester that works because that is all that is left.

unfortunately fuel is absolutely getting there. im gonna dig out my feelers and find a gauge and check valves and compression tomorrow

beenselock · September 22nd, 2012, 04:44 PM

ok so i have compression and today i pulled the airbox completely out and held my hand over the carbs to try and manually choke it and noticed that im feeling air blowing instead of sucking. however according to the service manual, this engine is proerply timed. at the 2TDC mark looking from the left side ( side with the shifter) on what i would call the back side of the came sprockets, there are 2 timing marks and they all line up straight across the top of the head....any ideas? and it kinda popped backwards out of the carb when i poured gas straight down the carbs

is there a way to have the crank sensor backwards? from what it seems, the timing components look like they only go in one way so im not sure if it could electronically be 180 out?

flynjay · September 22nd, 2012, 05:09 PM

Verify that the cams are installed properly. You could have the exhaust and intake mixed up.

Basically the cams are the same except the sprocket on the end can be attached in two different positions. Looking from the right side of the motor, there are two marks on the sprocket where it is bolted to the cam shaft. One has the bolt next to the IN the other has the bolt next to the EX. You can guess which one is which.

if they are mixed up the valves are basically trying to work opposite of what they are supposed to.

beenselock · September 22nd, 2012, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flynjay

Verify that the cams are installed properly. You could have the exhaust and intake mixed up.

Basically the cams are the same except the sprocket on the end can be attached in two different positions. Looking from the right side of the motor, there are two marks on the sprocket where it is bolted to the cam shaft. One has the bolt next to the IN the other has the bolt next to the EX. You can guess which one is which.

if they are mixed up the valves are basically trying to work opposite of what they are supposed to.

according to the service manual, the exhaust side has a groove at one end, and i checked that and it does, i wonder if he unbolted the sprockets and reinstalled them on the cam wrong? hmmm, ill have to check that

September 21st, 2012, 04:27 PM	#1
beenselock ninjette.org member Name: ben Location: florida Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): ninja 250 Posts: 12	ninja timing/no start help ok so i recently bought an 09 ninja that had been previously "worked on" by some kid who wanted a weekend project but he gave up when he couldnt get the bike to start so he was selling it really cheap, enter me. ive cleaned the carbs twice and i know theyre delievering fuel and even if they werent ive tried starting fluid to boot and have no results, ive also pulled the plugs and held them against the block and deffinetly have spark , also i dont have a compression tester but ive rather barbarically stuck my finger in the spark plug hole and turned the engine over with it in there, with mine and a buddys almost brand new 250 to compare so im confident in compression though a little doubtful because i cant find a gauge that will fit this thing (i mostly work with cars). now, ive pulled the valve cover and downloaded the service manual and by their manual the cam timing is correct however this thing still refuses. this kid was obviously inside of this engine and my question is if he was and if he removed the flywheel on the left side near the stator could he of reinstalled it backwards so when its telling me this engine is at 2TDC its really at one? also which cylinder is number 1? any help would be greatly appreciated.

September 21st, 2012, 04:37 PM	#2
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	i would look at more common issues like the valve/cam clearance. what kind of intake and exhaust does it have? i believe its wasted spark so electrical timing shouldnt be an issue if its a clean 180 flip? and if its not slamming valves into the piston or exploding things... edit: i think my mind is trapped in 2-stroke mode with the 180 flip not effecting it. i believe there are marks on the crank and wheel as well as the cams and cam sprockets. you should be able to tell by looking at them. if i remember right cylinder one is closest to the cam sprockets __________________________________________________

September 21st, 2012, 04:53 PM	#4
alex.s wat Name: wat Location: tustin/long beach Join Date: Sep 2009 Motorcycle(s): wat Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 5 MOTM - Oct '12, Feb '14	i would try to track down a motorcycle compression tester, check cyclegear or motorcycle superstore or something. that will cut your search in half at least. removing the fly wheel is a big job that you wouldn't often do. i would try to eliminate as many possibilities before hand __________________________________________________

September 21st, 2012, 05:58 PM	#7
Motofool Daily Ninjette rider Name: Hernan Location: Florida Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot. MOTY - 2016, MOTM - Dec '12, Jan '14, Jan '15, May '16	Each cylinder sees an additional spark during the exhaust stroke. The alternator rotor can't be misplaced since there is a key that fixes its position respect to the conical end of the crankshaft. I agree, the valve clearance is a more common problem, as well as carburetor problems. If your finger can't hold the compression of each cylinder, it is good enough to start. If the gaps of the spark plugs and the sensor coil are at 0.7 mm and the spark can jump more than 7 mm between naked wire and ground, the ignition is healthy. The pistons are numbered beginning with the engine left side, looking from the rider's seat. The 2T mark is not for spark timing but for cam position. __________________________________________________ *Motofool* *.................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly* "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí

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September 21st, 2012, 04:42 PM	#3
beenselock ninjette.org member Name: ben Location: florida Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): ninja 250 Posts: 12	ive checked the cam sprockets and theyre fine, they were off and i redid them myself however when it still wouldnt start is when i started wondering about this flywheel and maybe having it and therefore the timing mark 180d. i havent checked valve clearance, i will definitely do that. thank you for your help

September 21st, 2012, 04:55 PM	#5
beenselock ninjette.org member Name: ben Location: florida Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): ninja 250 Posts: 12	believe me in trying to, i just wouldnt put it past the previous owner and i know he was in the engine. ill start looking for a compression tester or an adapter for one of mine

September 21st, 2012, 04:57 PM	#6
beenselock ninjette.org member Name: ben Location: florida Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): ninja 250 Posts: 12	and if cylinder one is the side with the cam sprockets, the timing marks on this flywheel are definitely backwards. this was sup post to be a clean carbs and go have fun project, ugh.

September 21st, 2012, 06:49 PM	#9
02337 ninjette.org member Name: George Location: Delaware Join Date: Aug 2012 Motorcycle(s): 03 ninja 250 Posts: 201	If you still want a compression tester I know advance auto sells one with adapters for like $40. Comes with a pouch and adapters and replacement I rings. If you order online and do I store pick you can use a coupon(I try to be thrifty). I've used on my vws and a few bikes(with included adapter). Just FYI Edit: http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00020BM28 That's the one I picked up from advance(they're sites down atm)

September 21st, 2012, 07:48 PM	#10
flynjay ninjette.org guru Name: Jason Location: Houston, TX Join Date: Nov 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 (sold), '06 Ninja 650R Posts: 455	If it has spark and compression, the last thing to check is fuel. You said you have already cleaned the carbs, have you checked that the petcock is open and working. You could turn it to PRI and fuel should flow. Verify fuel is getting to the carbs by draining the float bowls trying to start it and then draining them again. If all that doesn't work then hunt down a compression tester that works because that is all that is left.

September 22nd, 2012, 04:44 PM	#12
beenselock ninjette.org member Name: ben Location: florida Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): ninja 250 Posts: 12	ok so i have compression and today i pulled the airbox completely out and held my hand over the carbs to try and manually choke it and noticed that im feeling air blowing instead of sucking. however according to the service manual, this engine is proerply timed. at the 2TDC mark looking from the left side ( side with the shifter) on what i would call the back side of the came sprockets, there are 2 timing marks and they all line up straight across the top of the head....any ideas? and it kinda popped backwards out of the carb when i poured gas straight down the carbs is there a way to have the crank sensor backwards? from what it seems, the timing components look like they only go in one way so im not sure if it could electronically be 180 out?

September 22nd, 2012, 05:09 PM	#13
flynjay ninjette.org guru Name: Jason Location: Houston, TX Join Date: Nov 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 (sold), '06 Ninja 650R Posts: 455	Verify that the cams are installed properly. You could have the exhaust and intake mixed up. Basically the cams are the same except the sprocket on the end can be attached in two different positions. Looking from the right side of the motor, there are two marks on the sprocket where it is bolted to the cam shaft. One has the bolt next to the IN the other has the bolt next to the EX. You can guess which one is which. if they are mixed up the valves are basically trying to work opposite of what they are supposed to.