Car Battery Question...

capt_bugaloo · June 28th, 2009, 11:32 AM

Good day:

I take my car into a local "minute lube" type place every four months or so, for oil changes and other routine maintenance. I find that as long as I am strict with them and say "We're just doing task 'A' today", they're fine, but of course they are always trying to peddle extra services that I think are not really needed. My car is a 1993 Pontiac Grand Prix with a 3.1 liter V6.

Today I went for an oil change and to change the fuel filter. While there, they hooked up some kind of electronic gizmo to my car battery, which I've never noticed them doing before. (Maybe they have and I just haven't noticed...) This device was about the size of a shoebox and in a neon green plastic shell.

The service tech then walked back and told me I had a bad battery and that my alternator was going to get fried! What?

She gave me a slip of computer print-out paper that stated the battery rating should be "550 CCA", and that the result of the test was "12.95 Volts, 227 CCA". She recommended that I replace the battery, and of course they recommend a premium Interstate battery at a cost of $125 US. (Seems pretty pricey for a car battery to me.)

Hmm. I smell something fishey. She tried to tell me that my battery is not holding a proper capacity charge, and that this is forcing the alternator to work harder than it should to charge the car battery.

What do you think? The car's electrical system seems just fine to me, and the battery seems to have plenty of juice to turn the engine over and start immediately. Am I getting snowed over here?

Alex · June 28th, 2009, 11:36 AM

The battery may very well be getting on in years and not working nearly as well as it did when new, but the crap about the alternator is just that, likely crap. If the battery goes completely dead the most likely fix is a new battery, with no damage to the rest of the car's electrical system, including the alternator. In fact, once the car's engine is started, it is running almost exclusively on the electrical power created by the alternator already, not the battery. Whether the battery is perfect or on its last legs. How old is the battery?

Obsidian · June 28th, 2009, 12:01 PM

It's kind of a tricky situation here but I'll put it very simply.

Run your battery dead, then get a new one. You more than likely not going to do any major damage if you run it down fully.

Now, for the other parts.

Over a batteries life span, it will use it's power cells up and thus, you get a dead battery.
It happens, oh well. Get a new battery.

The alternator's job is to charge the battery. Most all of your electronics use your battery and the battery is constantly charged by the alternator. Your alternator can power the car and it does, by constantly charging the battery. When you kill your battery, then your alternator is working EXTRA hard to keep the things going. The best thing to do when you have a dead battery and I mean dead as in won't start, is to just pull it out, get a ride to a battery place (auto parts store or whatever) and just get the new one. Put the new one in a you're good to go.

So, again in short, run the battery dead, then replace it.

-Brandon

Alex · June 28th, 2009, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obsidian

The alternator's job is to charge the battery. Most all of your electronics use your battery and the battery is constantly charged by the alternator. Your alternator can power the car and it does, by constantly charging the battery.

Is that really the case? One of the jobs of the alternator is to keep the battery topped off, but once it's fully charged it's not like the battery is drained a little to power the electric needs of the car, then recharged, then drained a little, then charged. All of the ongoing electrical needs are handled by the alternator.

If the battery goes dead, the alternator may be working a little harder only because much of its energy is now being used to constantly charge a dead battery that is never getting back up to full charge. But it's highly unlikely to kill the alternator as well.

Some supporting links here and here.

capt_bugaloo · June 28th, 2009, 12:18 PM

I just took a peek: the battery is dated Feb 2006.

What does the CCA rating mean? Is "227 CCA" good, bad, or ugly?

JCCJMM_ · June 28th, 2009, 12:42 PM

CCA is cold cranking amps.
227 is a little low.....keeping in mind that a 500 CCA battery will likely never do a true 500.

Is your battery getting your vehicle fired up ok? If it is, don't worry. As soon as you start to have trouble getting the car to turn over, head to Wal Mart. Get a battery there for about half of what you were quoted for the Interstate.

In general, batteries will need replacement every few years. There are several variables to battery life, like climate and how often/how long the vehicle is driven.

Obsidian · June 28th, 2009, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex

Is that really the case? One of the jobs of the alternator is to keep the battery topped off, but once it's fully charged it's not like the battery is drained a little to power the electric needs of the car, then recharged, then drained a little, then charged. All of the ongoing electrical needs are handled by the alternator.

If the battery goes dead, the alternator may be working a little harder only because much of its energy is now being used to constantly charge a dead battery that is never getting back up to full charge. But it's highly unlikely to kill the alternator as well.

Some supporting links here and here.

I've went through those links really quick and I couldn't find anything to say either of us are right.

One of the main things here also is it's not going to do the drain a little and charge a little. It's going to top the battery off, and keep it topped off. It actually gives the battery more than it needs. Most car batteries are 12 volts while most alternators at speed produce 13.5-15 volts. Just keeps it topped off fully and the battery really doesn't mind it.

capt_bugaloo · June 28th, 2009, 01:45 PM

Been looking on the Internet. It seems that most good batteries put out 550 to 600 CCA when new. In warm weather you don't need that much, but of course as the weather gets cold you want a higher CCA rating to have more cranking power for cold weather.

As far as the lights and turning the engine over, my Pontiac seems completely fine - but of course the weather is sunny and warm now. I suspect that in the autumn I may need to replace the battery but for now it seems fine.

I was much more worried about the comments that I will burn out the alternator if I'm running with a worn-down battery, and the message I'm getting is that that is a bunch of nonsense.

Obsidian · June 28th, 2009, 01:46 PM

It's not that it is nonsense, as it is true, but that exaggerated on it.

If everyone was rich and had the money then we would just replace parts BEFORE they died. Most of us don't and get all we can out of our parts.

rockNroll · June 28th, 2009, 04:38 PM

Have your battery checked someplace else and see if they confirm the weak battery. Running on a semi-crapped out battery will overwork your alternator and yes, shorten it's life. Have you ever jump-started a car with a dead battery? That whining sound you were hearing after the engine started was the alternator screaming for mercy because it wasn't designed to charge your battery... it was designed to keep the battery charged as it's used. There's a big difference.

HKr1 · June 28th, 2009, 05:02 PM

Car doesnt turn over.... time for new batt

g21-30 · June 28th, 2009, 05:16 PM

As others have stated, the battery does eventually wear out from being discharged (while cranking the engine) and recharged (by the alternator). These cycles (discharge/recharge) are normal, but do take a toll on the battery.

Contrary to what many people will tell you, the sole purpose of the battery is to crank the engine; however, if you install additional electrical components and exceed the amp rating of the alternator, the battery will be supporting those components. Anytime the amp capacity of the alternator is exceeded, the battery will gradually discharge.

In order to verify that your alternator is charging the battery, simply disconnect the NEGATIVE battery cable, while the engine is running. If the engine dies with the cable disconnected, the alternator is not charging the battery.

ninjabrewer · June 28th, 2009, 07:22 PM

While in college a day or so ago, my professor told us the best way to check a battery, esp in the fall, was to check the voltage while the car is turning over. Put a voltmeter on the battery and check the voltage. Should be around 12.5 or so, then have someone start the car. When the start kicks over, the batt voltage will drop, if drops to 8 or 9, replace ur battery before it gets cold or u might get stranded. When the car starts and the alternator takes over, the voltage should jump up to around 13-13.5.

nb

darthnip · July 1st, 2009, 07:34 PM

that is a very good way to test your battery. a battery is only as good as the load it can handle. if you test one with a volt meter and it reads 12.7 or so with nothing causing a load on it, the results dont mean anything. its when the bater is actually doing its job that counts. i've seen many bateries seem perfectly fine until they were under load. i work for delco remy, in the engineering lab. all i do all day is test starters and alternators. i do some very extreme tests that aren't "real world" but its a living. think of your battery as a pen and the alternator is a giant barrel of ink. all your electric components do get power thru the battery, but the battery gets fed constantly by the alternator. just like you'd use the pen to write, it does the work but you have a massive supply of ink from the barrel/alternator. sooner or later the parts will wear out and need replaced, but if your pen quits writing its highly unlikely it will damage your barrel of ink.

headshrink · July 1st, 2009, 09:05 PM

I can't address your specific car, but I can tell you this (gross generalizations to follow)......

I knew a manager at one of these places that told me all sorts of crazy stuff. They are basically about sales, and sales has nothing to do with actual maintenance. I also know a service writer/mechanic at an auto dealer, and they are too.... but I mean these "quickie" places are REALLY about selling ice to Eskimos. They are under a lot of pressure to sell this ice too. There may be one cert. mech on staff, but most of the rest are regular idiots off the street who don't know what they are doing, getting paid peanuts. I have heard so many stories about botched oil changes, it is SCARY! And stay away from their transmission flushes..... their "special" machine basically back-washes all the crap in the filter back into the tranny - but hey, you get new fluid!

Moral = if you are here, you probably know how to change your own oil. If it is worth it to you to pay someone else to do it for convenience, go to an actually dealer or mechanic.

EDIT: Funny, I just found this sorta on topic artical.... http://consumerist.com/5303211/eecb-...r-damaging-car

June 28th, 2009, 11:32 AM	#1
capt_bugaloo motorcycle rider Name: Bruce Location: Victoria, BC Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '14 Yamaha V-Star 650 Custom (silver) Posts: A lot.	Car Battery Question... Good day: I take my car into a local "minute lube" type place every four months or so, for oil changes and other routine maintenance. I find that as long as I am strict with them and say "We're just doing task 'A' today", they're fine, but of course they are always trying to peddle extra services that I think are not really needed. My car is a 1993 Pontiac Grand Prix with a 3.1 liter V6. Today I went for an oil change and to change the fuel filter. While there, they hooked up some kind of electronic gizmo to my car battery, which I've never noticed them doing before. (Maybe they have and I just haven't noticed...) This device was about the size of a shoebox and in a neon green plastic shell. The service tech then walked back and told me I had a bad battery and that my alternator was going to get fried! What? She gave me a slip of computer print-out paper that stated the battery rating should be "550 CCA", and that the result of the test was "12.95 Volts, 227 CCA". She recommended that I replace the battery, and of course they recommend a premium Interstate battery at a cost of $125 US. (Seems pretty pricey for a car battery to me.) Hmm. I smell something fishey. She tried to tell me that my battery is not holding a proper capacity charge, and that this is forcing the alternator to work harder than it should to charge the car battery. What do you think? The car's electrical system seems just fine to me, and the battery seems to have plenty of juice to turn the engine over and start immediately. Am I getting snowed over here? __________________________________________________ '14 Yamaha V-Star 650 Custom (silver)

June 28th, 2009, 11:36 AM	#2
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	The battery may very well be getting on in years and not working nearly as well as it did when new, but the crap about the alternator is just that, likely crap. If the battery goes completely dead the most likely fix is a new battery, with no damage to the rest of the car's electrical system, including the alternator. In fact, once the car's engine is started, it is running almost exclusively on the electrical power created by the alternator already, not the battery. Whether the battery is perfect or on its last legs. How old is the battery? __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

June 28th, 2009, 12:01 PM	#3
Obsidian ninjette.org member Name: Brandon Location: Mobile, AL Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): 05 Ninja EX250R Posts: 156	It's kind of a tricky situation here but I'll put it very simply. Run your battery dead, then get a new one. You more than likely not going to do any major damage if you run it down fully. Now, for the other parts. Over a batteries life span, it will use it's power cells up and thus, you get a dead battery. It happens, oh well. Get a new battery. The alternator's job is to charge the battery. Most all of your electronics use your battery and the battery is constantly charged by the alternator. Your alternator can power the car and it does, by constantly charging the battery. When you kill your battery, then your alternator is working EXTRA hard to keep the things going. The best thing to do when you have a dead battery and I mean dead as in won't start, is to just pull it out, get a ride to a battery place (auto parts store or whatever) and just get the new one. Put the new one in a you're good to go. So, again in short, run the battery dead, then replace it. -Brandon __________________________________________________

June 28th, 2009, 12:18 PM	#5
capt_bugaloo motorcycle rider Name: Bruce Location: Victoria, BC Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '14 Yamaha V-Star 650 Custom (silver) Posts: A lot.	I just took a peek: the battery is dated Feb 2006. What does the CCA rating mean? Is "227 CCA" good, bad, or ugly? __________________________________________________ '14 Yamaha V-Star 650 Custom (silver)

June 28th, 2009, 01:45 PM	#8
capt_bugaloo motorcycle rider Name: Bruce Location: Victoria, BC Join Date: Apr 2009 Motorcycle(s): '14 Yamaha V-Star 650 Custom (silver) Posts: A lot.	Been looking on the Internet. It seems that most good batteries put out 550 to 600 CCA when new. In warm weather you don't need that much, but of course as the weather gets cold you want a higher CCA rating to have more cranking power for cold weather. As far as the lights and turning the engine over, my Pontiac seems completely fine - but of course the weather is sunny and warm now. I suspect that in the autumn I may need to replace the battery but for now it seems fine. I was much more worried about the comments that I will burn out the alternator if I'm running with a worn-down battery, and the message I'm getting is that that is a bunch of nonsense. __________________________________________________ '14 Yamaha V-Star 650 Custom (silver)

June 28th, 2009, 12:42 PM	#6
JCCJMM_ ninjette.org member Name: John-Michael Location: Texas Join Date: Aug 2008 Motorcycle(s): 2007 EX250 Posts: 133	CCA is cold cranking amps. 227 is a little low.....keeping in mind that a 500 CCA battery will likely never do a true 500. Is your battery getting your vehicle fired up ok? If it is, don't worry. As soon as you start to have trouble getting the car to turn over, head to Wal Mart. Get a battery there for about half of what you were quoted for the Interstate. In general, batteries will need replacement every few years. There are several variables to battery life, like climate and how often/how long the vehicle is driven.

June 28th, 2009, 01:46 PM	#9
Obsidian ninjette.org member Name: Brandon Location: Mobile, AL Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): 05 Ninja EX250R Posts: 156	It's not that it is nonsense, as it is true, but that exaggerated on it. If everyone was rich and had the money then we would just replace parts BEFORE they died. Most of us don't and get all we can out of our parts. __________________________________________________

June 28th, 2009, 04:38 PM	#10
rockNroll . Name: rock Location: greenville, south carolina Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): black Posts: A lot.	Have your battery checked someplace else and see if they confirm the weak battery. Running on a semi-crapped out battery will overwork your alternator and yes, shorten it's life. Have you ever jump-started a car with a dead battery? That whining sound you were hearing after the engine started was the alternator screaming for mercy because it wasn't designed to charge your battery... it was designed to keep the battery charged as it's used. There's a big difference.

June 28th, 2009, 05:02 PM	#11
HKr1 IC2(SW) Name: Kerry Location: Pensacola Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: A lot.	Car doesnt turn over.... time for new batt

June 28th, 2009, 05:16 PM	#12
g21-30 ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Sam Location: Northern Virginia Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): Ninja 250R 2009 Posts: A lot.	Self check of battery and alternator As others have stated, the battery does eventually wear out from being discharged (while cranking the engine) and recharged (by the alternator). These cycles (discharge/recharge) are normal, but do take a toll on the battery. Contrary to what many people will tell you, the sole purpose of the battery is to crank the engine; however, if you install additional electrical components and exceed the amp rating of the alternator, the battery will be supporting those components. Anytime the amp capacity of the alternator is exceeded, the battery will gradually discharge. In order to verify that your alternator is charging the battery, simply disconnect the NEGATIVE battery cable, while the engine is running. If the engine dies with the cable disconnected, the alternator is not charging the battery.

June 28th, 2009, 07:22 PM	#13
ninjabrewer dirty old man Name: Chris Location: Hazel Green, AL Join Date: Nov 2008 Motorcycle(s): Blue '08 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 1	While in college a day or so ago, my professor told us the best way to check a battery, esp in the fall, was to check the voltage while the car is turning over. Put a voltmeter on the battery and check the voltage. Should be around 12.5 or so, then have someone start the car. When the start kicks over, the batt voltage will drop, if drops to 8 or 9, replace ur battery before it gets cold or u might get stranded. When the car starts and the alternator takes over, the voltage should jump up to around 13-13.5. nb __________________________________________________ Death tugs at my ear and says, "Live, I am coming." -Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., poet, novelist, essayist, and physician (1809-1894) www.friendsofsanonofre.org

July 1st, 2009, 07:34 PM	#14
darthnip ninjette.org member Name: darth Location: central indiana Join Date: Jun 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2007 ninja 250 Posts: 84	that is a very good way to test your battery. a battery is only as good as the load it can handle. if you test one with a volt meter and it reads 12.7 or so with nothing causing a load on it, the results dont mean anything. its when the bater is actually doing its job that counts. i've seen many bateries seem perfectly fine until they were under load. i work for delco remy, in the engineering lab. all i do all day is test starters and alternators. i do some very extreme tests that aren't "real world" but its a living. think of your battery as a pen and the alternator is a giant barrel of ink. all your electric components do get power thru the battery, but the battery gets fed constantly by the alternator. just like you'd use the pen to write, it does the work but you have a massive supply of ink from the barrel/alternator. sooner or later the parts will wear out and need replaced, but if your pen quits writing its highly unlikely it will damage your barrel of ink.

July 1st, 2009, 09:05 PM	#15
headshrink ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Bob Location: CA Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): '08 Ninja 250r, '14 CBR500r Posts: A lot.	I can't address your specific car, but I can tell you this (gross generalizations to follow)...... I knew a manager at one of these places that told me all sorts of crazy stuff. They are basically about sales, and sales has nothing to do with actual maintenance. I also know a service writer/mechanic at an auto dealer, and they are too.... but I mean these "quickie" places are REALLY about selling ice to Eskimos. They are under a lot of pressure to sell this ice too. There may be one cert. mech on staff, but most of the rest are regular idiots off the street who don't know what they are doing, getting paid peanuts. I have heard so many stories about botched oil changes, it is SCARY! And stay away from their transmission flushes..... their "special" machine basically back-washes all the crap in the filter back into the tranny - but hey, you get new fluid! Moral = if you are here, you probably know how to change your own oil. If it is worth it to you to pay someone else to do it for convenience, go to an actually dealer or mechanic. EDIT: Funny, I just found this sorta on topic artical.... http://consumerist.com/5303211/eecb-...r-damaging-car Last futzed with by headshrink; July 2nd, 2009 at 12:03 AM.

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