The "new" grocery store scam?

[demp]

I was just informed by a coworker that there are now people using the cashback option on debit cards when you don't ask for it keeping the money check your receipts guys!

[Flashmonkey]

I use self-checkout whenever possible.

[FrugalNinja250]

This can only work where there isn't a card swipe terminal for the customer. I rarely ever see places like that anymore. Most all the larger retailers have the PIN terminals, at those the cashier can't exercise the cash-back option. Keep those receipts!

[Blackwidow]

i don't get it. they can't pull cash unless you put in your pin number. how does this so called "scam" work?

[demp]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

i don't get it. they can't pull cash unless you put in your pin number. how does this so called "scam" work?

If you're paying debit, you're using your pin to pay. It depends on the machines the stores use if they can do this or not though.

You walk up with your groceries, you pay with debit, and the sneaky clerk takes out 10 bucks (or whatever amount) for themselves, without any notification to you aside from your receipt.

[Blackwidow]

i'm not sure of any other areas, but here in Southern Cali, its nearly impossible...but then again, i don't have the criminal mind. The purchaser has control over selecting the amount of cashback, not the cashier.

[dubojr1]

Check this out:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar..._cash_back.htm

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by dubojr1

Check this out:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/librar..._cash_back.htm

I call BS!! Unless the payment terminals are different from state to state, the cashier can not override the cash back option. The consumer would have to agree to the total at the end, for example if you make a purchase of $20, and you ask for $10 cash back, the purchaser must approve (accept and sign) for a total of $30 charge.

[demp]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

I call BS!! Unless the payment terminals are different from state to state, the cashier can not override the cash back option. The consumer would have to agree to the total at the end, for example if you make a purchase of $20, and you ask for $10 cash back, the purchaser must approve (accept and sign) for a total of $30 charge.

Omg! The world is bigger than the United States!

Up here in Canada, this can certainly be done, up until recently every store here with a debit machine could potentially do this, but thanks to a lot of them changing to the new PIN terminals, it's now an option that we get, rather than the cashier.


Edit, sorry yes, the customer does have to agree to the total, but how many people do you know that go through every single item on the bill before paying? If you're buying 300 dollars worth of groceries, would you honestly notice 10 or 20 dollars right away?

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by demp

Omg! The world is bigger than the United States!

Up here in Canada, this can certainly be done, up until recently every store here with a debit machine could potentially do this, but thanks to a lot of them changing to the new PIN terminals, it's now an option that we get, rather than the cashier.

are you trying to be funny with that comment? Because most of the posts I read on your link was within the US. which is why I said "state to state".

the credit card issuance is changing to Chip and PIN based cards, pretty soon, these magstripe cards will be extinct. I know this because i'm in the credit card manufacturing industry.

[demp]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

are you trying to be funny with that comment? Because most of the posts I read on your link was within the US. which is why I said "state to state".

the credit card issuance is changing to Chip and PIN based cards, pretty soon, these magstripe cards will be extinct. I know this because i'm in the credit card manufacturing industry.

? No I was not trying to be funny, I'm insulted.


Please show me where I posted a link.

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by demp

Edit, sorry yes, the customer does have to agree to the total, but how many people do you know that go through every single item on the bill before paying? If you're buying 300 dollars worth of groceries, would you honestly notice 10 or 20 dollars right away?

Again, I don't know how it works up there in good ol Canada. but terminals are much different here. You see your total for $XX.XX, then the purchaser selects or declines the cash back option, then a new total is displayed on the terminal. so if a person sees a sudden increase in their total amount due, i'd think you'd question it.

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by demp

? No I was not trying to be funny, I'm insulted.


Please show me where I posted a link.

my bad, it was Jason that posted the link.

[Alex]

FWIW - the chip & pin system used in Europe did very little to counteract fraud and abuse. It's one of those things (like airline security) that gives the public the warm fuzzy that things are more secure, without much in the way of data to back up those feelings.

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by Alex

FWIW - the chip & pin system used in Europe did very little to counteract fraud and abuse. It's one of those things (like airline security) that gives the public the warm fuzzy that things are more secure, without much in the way of data to back up those feelings.

??? and where are you getting this information from? Any person with the right machine can easily make a magnetic strip card, its nearly impossible to copy a chip card

[demp]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

??? and where are you getting this information from? Any person with the right machine can easily make a magnetic strip card, its nearly impossible to copy a chip card

I hope that proves to be true, I had my card copied by a goddamn gas station last season. Now all they ever get is cash.

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by demp

I hope that proves to be true, I had my card copied by a goddamn gas station last season. Now all they ever get is cash.

well with the EMV cards, it won't happen. We already have statistics showing that fraud has gone down significantly since the launch of the EMV cards (chip and pin). All the information on mag strip cards are static, so its easy to duplicate it, but with the chip, nothing is static, its all dynamic...meaning the information passed from the chip to the issuer to approve the transaction changes with each transaction.

[onetruevibe]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

the credit card issuance is changing to Chip and PIN based cards, pretty soon, these magstripe cards will be extinct. I know this because i'm in the credit card manufacturing industry.

Is this the RFID technology? At the university I work at, the student IDs were loaded with RFID and a lot of the computer science faculty members freaked out because they said RFID skimmers could be easily created to collect account info from a distance.

I don't know much about it but thought I'd ask since you're in the know.

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by onetruevibe

Is this the RFID technology? At the university I work at, the student IDs were loaded with RFID and a lot of the computer science faculty members freaked out because they said RFID skimmers could be easily created to collect account info from a distance.

I don't know much about it but thought I'd ask since you're in the know.

Are the ID cards used at the university contactless? meaning, they are not inserted into anything just held infront of a reader?

EDIT- I'm guessing yes, because RF stands for radio frequency, these cards i'm talking about are contact cards, its basically a miniture computer inside a card.

Even if you have RFID skimmers, you'd have to be pretty damn close to be able to retreive the information on that chip, i'm talking about 2mm away.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

??? and where are you getting this information from? Any person with the right machine can easily make a magnetic strip card, its nearly impossible to copy a chip card

Its flaws have become pretty public lately, here are some links on some of the problems:

http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/...damental-flaw/
http://letmeeatcake.wordpress.com/20...-or-the-banks/
http://blog.securityactive.co.uk/201...out-of-pocket/
http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2...pin-is-broken/
http://www.mydigitallife.co.za/index...html&Itemid=29

[Reswob]

Originally Posted by demp

Omg! The world is bigger than the United States!

Don't be silly.

[gfloyd2002]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

I call BS!! Unless the payment terminals are different from state to state, the cashier can not override the cash back option. The consumer would have to agree to the total at the end, for example if you make a purchase of $20, and you ask for $10 cash back, the purchaser must approve (accept and sign) for a total of $30 charge.

Down here, you scan your card and enter your pin after the checker turns the cash register screen to you, showing only a total. Sometimes, the checker scans your card for you at their terminal, and does the confirmation there. It would be easy for the cashier to have added extra into the total. While it would be easy to notice a $20 overcharge on a small order, even weekly grocery bills are usually over $300 (103% import duties plus a 17.5% sales tax). And extra $20 on an atm card charge would go unnoticed if you didn't check your receipt.

Mind you, I would probably notice, and would raise holy hell and insist on the police getting involved - at the very least to protect the cashier from me beating the living snot out of him/her. But I could see this scam working easily.

[heylookitsfranco]

I work as a cashier at my local grocery, and lemme tell you, if I wanted to, it'd be easy to snag a few extra bucks. As a rule of thumb, customers tend to be.... stupid and absent minded. if you're looking out for the problem, and I assume most contributers of this thread are, you likely won't get robbed. otherwise, yeah. if your checker moves fast enough (as i do) it's easy to get away with. at least here, at my store, the prompt DOES show up on the PIN terminal. nine times out of ten, the customer won't notice the cash back option til i tell em about it.
ALSO, I don't know if our computers are just stupid (I reckon they are), but cash back doesn't show up on the bottom line of the totals screen. the amount that actually leaves your bank account is in smaller print up above the bold total line. (the big clue is when the till opens and it says 'change : $40). otherwise, you'd have to review your receipt to see if anything happened. about half the people i ring up read theirs when i give em, the other half stuff em in their pockets or ask/tell me to toss 'em.

so basically, if they probably won't notice it on the screen, they probably won't read their receipt, and you're probably 20-60 bucks richer.

not that i steal from people.

[Chubbs032]

what was the "old" grocery store scam if this is a new one

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by Alex

Its flaws have become pretty public lately, here are some links on some of the problems:

http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/...damental-flaw/
http://letmeeatcake.wordpress.com/20...-or-the-banks/
http://blog.securityactive.co.uk/201...out-of-pocket/
http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2...pin-is-broken/
http://www.mydigitallife.co.za/index...html&Itemid=29

Very good info Alex, thanks! I'm going to share this with my team.

By no means is anything in this world 100%, everytime a new product is out, there are criminals trying to break the code one way or another. the fraud will never reduce to zero, but it does reduce it significantly. Those fraudulant acts are different. Things like copying a credit card will go away, because you can't copy a chip. I'm sure if you stick a device in the reader you can manipulate the transaction process, which is why we are now introducing a new way to make purchases, it called NFC. You use applications on your smartphone and everything is contactless. Your phone becomes your credit card.

[Chubbs032]

NFC been going on in asian countries (i.e. japan) for over a decade, why is everything always so delayed

[Blackwidow]

Originally Posted by Chubbs032

NFC been going on in asian countries (i.e. japan) for over a decade, why is everything always so delayed

LOL good question. Adoption of anything new in other countries is a slow and painful process.

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by Blackwidow

I call BS!! Unless the payment terminals are different from state to state, the cashier can not override the cash back option. The consumer would have to agree to the total at the end, for example if you make a purchase of $20, and you ask for $10 cash back, the purchaser must approve (accept and sign) for a total of $30 charge.

Yup, ours is like that here in Cali so as long it doesn't happen to me I'm all good. For you other guys, check your receipts cuz you guys gotz some lame machines over there.

[CThunder-blue]

I use cash as much as possible. It's about the only way to keep semi-sane.

[Cuongism]

Many countries actually use NFC. US always seems slow when it comes to technology for some reason (mostly because we use different technologies than the rest of the world). Biggest example is our many different cell phone antennas; instead of everyone using GSM, the 4 biggest cell phone companies use 4 different technologies (GSM, LTE, CDMA, etc). Supposedly the iPhone 5 this summer will have NFC. Some places are already testing it out currently (ie Jack in the Box).

[rwheelz]

Geez everyone is out to scam us these days! Are self-checkouts and pay-at-the-pump CC swiping safe? I have to get my credit cards canceled/reissued almost annually for the past several years due to some charge that wasn't mine. I always figured it was caused by buying things online.

[Havok]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

Yup, ours is like that here in Cali so as long it doesn't happen to me I'm all good. For you other guys, check your receipts cuz you guys gotz some lame machines over there.

Wrong the checker can override the pin pads prompt. If you select no cash back the checker pushes a button for electronic transmit and it transmits the information for approval. If the checker punches in a number first and then hits the button you are charged what ammount the checker has entered.

So let's say your bill is 50 dollars if the checker enters in 10 dollars and then hits the button you are charged 10 bucks. If the checker enters in 100 dollars then hits it you are charged 100 dollars and the only way to know is to look at the screen it will say cash back or your recipt.

It is done like this for people who want to pay part cash part card or need to put it on two cards or so people can round there bill out with cash back.