January 15th, 2014, 10:41 PM | #1 |
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Area P full race exhaust/jetting/airbox-delete/kleen-air delete..
Just installed areaP mid high mount race exhaust full carbon muffler etc yada yada ya.
And the modified jet kit they sell. And the K&N pod filter setup and deleted the airbox. Deleted the kleen air system as well. Cleaned the bike.. went for a short ride. Will order the k&n ru-3230 crankcase breathers for valve cover and trans/crank vents. Currently running U-bent hoses to keep crankcase vapor away from the intake filter and keep rain out of the engine. Bike is noticeably more powerful, but it's a subtle increase. Didn't really take it into high RPM as I didn't have helmet and it was dog-walking-hour in the neighborhood and everyone is already terrified of me and my skull mask and hates me and my loud machines. Bike is also considerably louder. Thump thumping idle sounds like a 600 four stroke honda. There's a certain point in the RPM range around 4k where the bike definitely has a loud cracking to the exhaust note. Tried to ride it quietly home from my shop to my house and even lugging it in higher gears was a little on the loud side. Noticed that starting the bike cold didn't seem to require choke and I could fire it up, drop into first gear and take right off with not much weak loss of power feeling that I used to have with the OEM stuff. Also noticed minimal but certain popping backfire on deceleration and part throttle decel.. questions ---- - how do I know I've nailed it on the tuning? Reading plugs and feeling the powerband of the bike? Felt a little bogging when I opened it up to 12krpm, but could have been working air out of the fuel system from removing the tank and all the carbs etc. - any other way to get more power out of the machine? I'm beating a dead horse here, already jetted, full exhaust, airbox delete, changed gearing etc.. I think I'm about at the glass ceiling of the most power I will get from a 250. *Tuning notes* -- areaP stated in their documentation that their tuning shop was 160' above sea level, and they had best results on the dyno with 108 main jet, 2.75 turns out on the idle/air screws (under the plugs you have to drill out) -- and 3rd notch down on the needles with 2 washers above the c-clip. I mimic'd their setup except for installing the 106 jet (instead of 108) as most of my daily riding is below 500' above sea level. My 'fun-roads' are a few thousand feet up the mountain so I opted down a size on the main jet to try and retain some higher-elevation power. Very depressing to read that every 1k feet above sea level results in 3% power loss. My crater-road playground is above 10k feet... which means I'm losing 30% of my power, regardless of tuning. Anyways -- I think I did pretty well seeing as I've never disassembled a carburetor or messed with jets before. dear diary... |
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January 15th, 2014, 10:55 PM | #2 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
Name: TC
Location: Hawaii
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oh and installed braided SS galfer front/rear brake lines.
And yoshimura rearset brackets to the highest/rear-most position. Brake lines are interesting new feel, rear brake is right fcking there... little too heavy on the foot and she locks right up, but I can speculate that high speed braking with front and rear brake will provide much better feel of the rear tire deflection before lock. Stopping from 40mph with only rear brake wasn't a super noticeable change in feel but it's subtle and I speculate it will be much more pronounced at higher speeds. Front brake feels very squishy (NO AIR IN LINES, I know what I'm doing and am not an idiot*) -- but the squish is much more tactile in feel. Feels like braile through my finger tips -- the lever travels much further from no-brake to lock, and although it feels squishy whilst sitting stationary, riding and braking with the front brake has a lot more feel to it. Kind of like I transitioned from binary light-switch (brake/no-brake) to potentiometer (1-10.) Will report back on front brake feel from high speed braking observations once I haul the bike up to 100mph and down from 100mph. Yoshimura rearset brackets are very nice. I'm 6' 170lb and the pegs no longer catch on my loose pants when walking the bike around whilst sitting on it. Putting my feet on the pegs feels much nicer, like my legs are coiled under me instead of like I'm sitting on them scrunched up directly under my core. When I throw the bike into a low speed/high-lean turn, my elbows don't interfere with my knees and my legs are tucked back and high on the bike. Very confidence inspiring. Also feels like I'm coiled OVER the tank, instead of laying ON the tank. All in all, good day of wrenching and I'm pleased with the modifications and performance gain. Can't wait to take this bike out and beat on her like a rented mule to really get a feel for the change of things. *not an idiot proclaims that I am indeed a competent mechanic and more often than not, free of idiot tendency. Not by any means proclaiming that I am not an idiot; ever -- but certainly capable of changing brake lines and flushing/bleeding fluid without installing air bubbles in the brake lines. I may very well be an idiot in certain aspects of my behavior, but not when it comes to working on and maintaining the machines that I own and care for. |
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January 15th, 2014, 11:32 PM | #3 |
Certifiable nontundrum
Name: Harper
Location: NC Milkshake stand
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There is a thread with something like super NA motor build. Check it out
Good work getin ya bike in order! Where are the pics?
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January 15th, 2014, 11:52 PM | #4 |
RIP Alex
Name: Cuong
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When and where are you feeling this bogging?
You could check out Jetting database: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10208 DIY: Getting the jets just right, step-by-step: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showt...4&postcount=34 The links posted can be found in the DIY list: http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5586
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January 16th, 2014, 07:39 AM | #5 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
MOTM - Apr '14
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There are tons of threads in the new gen section regarding jetting and decel popping/backfiring search and read.
your popping on decel IMO is most likely 1 or a combination of 3 things. 1)exhaust leak 2)leak in vac line 3)jetting is off somewhere most likely 1 or 2 IMO As far as getting jetting right? make a change go for a ride and take notes on what you notice. Sound, feel, smell everything. Use logic of jetting to make another change based on your findings wash, rinse repeat. Until you get more comfortable with how the circuits interact try to limit yourself to changing one thing at a time. Yes this is time consuming but doing things the right way is not always the easy way. (TLDR - for plug check to be useful they need to be done right and the right way might not be in the best interest of the engine.) IMO forget plug checks, the bikes jetting has different circuits and varying throttle input uses different circuits or a combo of them. That being said in the dirtbike world plug checks are pretty much exclusively used to check WOT main jet conditions. Why? because that is one of the hardest circuits to simply judge by your senses and you can pretty much know for certain that the burn you are getting from the plug is only the main jet because you were WOT. The protocol is to get bike to operating temps, find a nice straight stretch, go WOT for a few seconds then cut the engine and then throttle coast to stop and check plug then and there. By doing this and then checking the plug you get a picture of your burn on the plug at only WOT which is exclusively controlled by the main jet Is it necessarily the safest thing to do for your bike.... probably not, I don't do this on any of my bikes for that reason and I shouldn't have to warn against just reving the bike while stationary with out air flow. So lets say you want to plug check your ninja, you go for ride during that ride you are hitting several circuits and the burn on the plug will be a combo of those and primarily the burn of the circuit the bike was at before turning it off which is most likely idle because you probably let the engine rev down before turning the bike off, does that make sense? So in that case the plug check will tell you little about mid throttle, or WOT I'm sure it could have been explained better. In short - if you don't cut the engine while in a particular circuit then a plug check isn't going to specifically tell you anything and the only circuit engagement that is 100 repeatable exclusive is main jet at WOT
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January 16th, 2014, 11:41 PM | #6 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Fckk me, I just typed up a long troubleshooting reply with all the symptoms and speculations and the internet deleted the reply when I opened a new tab to find the elevation of the place I did my testing.
Bike felt better at mid/wot 1k feet up the mountain. That's all the troubleshooting I can manage to re-type right now. Suspect I'm running rich at idle, lean at WOT. Takes a few seconds now for the motor to idle 'down' after stopping. That is to say, I stop the bike, clutch in -- motor takes solid 7 seconds to slow down to idle speed. Before mods, idle would drop like a rock and settle perfectly as soon as the clutch went in. ------------------------ Also lots of backfiring popping on high-rpm closed throttle. ------------------------ Damnit I guess this is on me to figure out. I'll post more after I ride more but I'm stuck working straight through the next month. Not sure how smart it is to ride this bike without it being tuned properly. A wot pull in 5th gear made the bike stutter out and after pulling over it wouldn't idle without 3/4 choke engagement. |
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January 17th, 2014, 11:27 AM | #7 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
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can't really help you out any more with out some decent info about how bike is running.
go for a ride, get bike to operating temps. Stop, let bike idle for few seconds until idle is steady then crack the throttle quickly then close it quickly, watch rpm, do they dive or hang high? Go for a cruise on a nice flat stretch of road with out any stops where you can maintain 45ish-55ish mph and not impede traffic or put yourself in danger and in whatever gear get rpms in 7k range give or take with minimal throttle no more than 1/4 open and then proceed to accelerate until 10k rpm under different throttle inputs. 1/4 open, 1/2 3/4 open & pay close attention to how bike feels. Then repeat exact same thing with choke on full, how does the bike behave differently with the choke on full. (note using choke to trouble shoot main jet/WOT is not overly useful) for WOT, put in the 108 main jet and get bike to operating temp and do some WOT runs is it better or worse than the 106? good answers to those questions might help. And I still think you need to check for an exhaust leak and double check all your hoses to make sure everything is in the right place and secure which is probably cause for popping with closed throttle/decel......like I already said once.
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I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once. |
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January 17th, 2014, 10:51 PM | #8 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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January 19th, 2014, 10:13 AM | #9 |
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Buy ecotrons EFI kit, problem solved, and you get the tuning your use to
sorry im no help, but thats what i plan to do as well. I hate messing with carbs |
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January 19th, 2014, 11:08 PM | #10 |
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Today I spent the entire day dicking with this bike, it's rather frustrating.
First I upped the main jet to a DJ108 from the DJ106 I was using. Backfiring upon high-rpm closed-throttle got worse. The bike bogged hard at high RPM -- accelerating with power and then BWAAHHHHHH, loss of power. Then I messed with the idle screws. Turned them up/down from the 2.75 turns out that I had them set at. Turned them in all the way, backed them out until the bike would run. Turned them out until the bike's idle increased, kept backing them out (1/4 turn at a time) until the idle speed slowed. Idle began slowing down at about 3.25 turns. Turned them back in to roughly 3 turns to stabilize idling high again. Then I turned down the idle knob -- my tach is broken but I speculate I'm idling smoothly at 1k. Test rode it hard up and down the street -- WOT in second, loss of power up high (bogging) -- shift to third, bike keeps climbing in RPM then bogging up high again. Figured I was too rich based on bogging, so put back in DJ106 smaller jet again. Less bogging up high, but still loss of power near 10krpm. So now I'm right back where I started -- idle screws approximately 3 turns out, DJ106 main jet again. Right where I started this morning after taking the tank on, tank off, pod on, pod off, float bowls on, float bowls off. Bike feels like it has good power up until high RPM (~10k) --- ordered a new cluster, hopefully that fixes tach once it arrives and is installed. Current setup -- areaP full high mount race exhaust, carbon muffler (18"), DJ106 main jet, K&N pod filter, vented crankcase. 87 octane e10 fuel. DJ needles set at third clip down from the top, with two washers ABOVE the clips -- as per recommended by DJ. Still moderate backfiring when closing the throttle at high RPM. Really want to clear that up and get high-rpm power back and get rid of bogging feeling at high RPM. Verified all hoses/vacuum lines based on several diagrams/pictures I found. What's next to try? Remove one washer from ABOVE the clips? That would raise the needles by thickness of one washer, and richen the bike. Questions ------------ What is the main cause of backfire when closing throttle at high RPM? My understanding is that the bike is too rich, blowing unburned fuel into exhaust pipe where it ignites in the pipe causing the popping sound. At very high RPM throttle close, sounds like gunshots going off right behind me. Not neighborhood friendly, but the entire community already hates me and my loud machines. Plz advise! |
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January 20th, 2014, 07:11 AM | #11 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
Join Date: Sep 2012 Motorcycle(s): I don't even know anymore?? Posts: A lot.
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First, what jet maker are you using? DJ? Keihin?, FP?
Second quit thinking in RPMs think in throttle position. Throttle position is what controls the needles and which jet circuit you are operating in. It doesn't matter if you are at 10k or 5k 1/2 throttle is same jets ect... So I figured you were rich up top from the get go by your description. By going to the 108 and you saying everything was worse is a confirmation. You now need to go down to a 104 main jet and see what happens. For now return idle screws to 2.5 out, adjust them last don't touch them till everything else is good, they are fine tuning and you have bigger fish to fry. Again WOT only test the main jet, we already determined that it is most likely to big and you need to go down to 104, any more WOT testing is pointless until you get the 104 in. Did you do any of the choke tests I mentioned above at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4 throttle? These will help trouble shoot your pilot and needle settings which are more difficult to get right vs Main jet IMO so this should be interesting. For now keep clip at 3, what is your pilot jet size? Still stock #38? that should be fine. So seems like you wasted most of your day. Should have taken you 5 minutes to get bike apart, a few minutes to put 108 main jets in then don't put fairings back on, let it warm up, take it for a quick test ride noting WOT and after 5 minutes come back and put 104 jet in, repeat test ride, if good, leave it, if still rich, put in smaller. (assuming these are DJ jets 106 and 104's sound to small for Keihin) Did you take your exhaust back off and double check, make sure all junctions are sealed. Did you use new crush washers around exhaust ports of engine where pipes connect up? Some people will add aluminum shims to help create a seal as they work decent and are easily removable later. Some people will use exhaust sealer but it can be a pain to deal with if later you want to take things back apart and you made a mess. Other thing is in the top of the carb make sure you didn't tear or pinch any of the rubber boots ect... and your needles are sitting correctly.
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I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once. |
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January 20th, 2014, 07:28 AM | #12 |
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/moved to new-gen tech
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January 20th, 2014, 09:56 AM | #13 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Oleg
Location: Seattle WA
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Check clean air system connections / plate. If it leaks air it will pop.
Considering how much time you're spending messing with this bike have you considered going to a shop with a dyno and doing a few runs. They will have a wide band sensor and can actually tell what's going on with jetting using science (vs seat of the pants feel). |
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January 20th, 2014, 03:40 PM | #14 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Quote:
We do not have a dyno on the island. No local shops specialize in tuning. This is all me. |
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January 20th, 2014, 03:58 PM | #15 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Quote:
I appreciate your help with this. Will post back after I install 108 or 110 main jet and have more to share. Gotta get this damn s2k I'm working on sorted out as well... too many projects. |
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January 20th, 2014, 03:58 PM | #16 |
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You're fine. Remember the order:
main jet. (WOT at top end, usually 3rd gear is good for this) needle. (slow roll ons and offs, anywhere from 4k-10k) fine tune the mix screw setting. Sounds like you've got it going in the right direction. (though I'm not entire sure how you mixed the limiter up with a bog... but whatever) |
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January 20th, 2014, 05:01 PM | #17 |
ninjette.org member
Name: Oleg
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Now that you fixed clean air system I suggest going back to stock jetting and raise the needle up .5-1mm. That should be a good base to work from.
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January 20th, 2014, 05:25 PM | #18 | |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Quote:
Additionally -- the sound of the bike now is drastically different. Doesn't sound like it's revving very high at all. Can't think of anything else that I'm hitting.... it's a sudden power loss, and it bounces a bit -- must be the rev limiter. This is my first time tuning a carb.. |
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January 20th, 2014, 05:27 PM | #19 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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I have areaP full race exhaust, K&n pod filter, no airbox.... perhaps you missed that. Stock jetting would put me very very lean at this point.
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January 20th, 2014, 06:54 PM | #20 |
dirty boy
Name: Joe
Location: Johnstown, PA
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i think i'm seeing things in a new light as well. A non functioning tach would have been useful to know YESTERDAY!@!!
keep us posted on progress
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I love the smell of burning pre-mix in the morning I don't think I'm a lot dumber than you thought that I think that I thought I was once. |
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January 20th, 2014, 07:26 PM | #21 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Yeah. Word.
New tach ordered. K&N ru-3230 crankcase breather ordered. Rear cowling cover ordered. Replacement for broken throttle cable ordered. Dunlop GT501 fr/rr tires ordered. I think I'm forgetting something... Maybe I should get new grips while I'm at it. Just about to install the 108 main jet now. Tempted to go for the 110, but I'm fairly certain it will be too rich and then I'm into the carbs for the umpteenth time. (btw I never knew 'umpteenth' was an actual word -- but spell check didn't flag it.) |
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January 20th, 2014, 09:02 PM | #22 |
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Honestly idle doesn't matter much. If it idles low when it's hot, lean it a bit. If it's really hard to start, richens it a bit. Idle can actually go pretty lean because there's no load.
But there's also a large window of mix screw position that will give you a decent idle. Just worry about getting the right main jet right now. That's the first step, as main jet size will affect the needle height. Don't mess with needle height until after you've nailed the main jet. Idk. I find carbs easier than FI. Fi was a headache of numbers and tables to me. Carbs are easy to test once you get a little experience with them. Ymmv. |
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January 20th, 2014, 11:06 PM | #23 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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Thanks ^^ I put in the bigger 108 main. Bike pulled hard to redline just like the 106. No bogging, and it was dark and about 8* cooler by the time I did my test run, so colder temp would make it run EVEN richer. And no bogging.
Only had time for one pull because the hood already hates me. Will ride the bike hard tomorrow and thoroughly test the main jet out. Wondering if I should upgrade to the 110 main... I'll know after more testing. Want the bike on the lean side because my crater roads are 10k+ feet above sea level. My daily riding is done below 1000'. So understandably lean is preferable. Think someone along the main road called the cops, because they were crawling all over by the time it got dark. One followed me 5 miles out of the hood when I ran up to the part store to get a fluid pump for another project. Yes I noticed almost 1/2 turn leeway either direction from where my idle screws are set. That is to say -- 1/2 turn each way didn't seem to affect idle much. Won't mess with anything until I nail main jet, then I'll consider raising needle slightly, then finally dial in the idle screws. Carb tuning is simple once you understand enough to take the mystery out of it. Also pulled my CRX fully fkin built racecar out of the bushes, jump started and fired right up. Idling rock solid at 14.7AFR. Very pleasing. Not that it's anyone's business, but I built the monster 50%, then got hit with a deadline and lease termination for the shop, and had to finish the second half on a 2 week deadline. Needless to say, had to cut a couple corners to get the car running and home -- where she's been sitting for 6 months awaiting a better tune for WOT so I can bring the water/meth injection kit online and pick up where I left off. Getting pulled over at 140mph+ while trying to tune was scary, and it was depressing to have to cut corners on the project.. so I kinda lost interest til now. Feels so great to see light at the end of the tunnel with the bike, finally feel like picking up where I left off with the car... hell.... I've got 55gal of medical grade, 99.3% purity methanol sitting in my back yard. Gotta get this monster out of the bushes and onto the drag strip where she belongs. 300whp in a 1970lb car (with driver)... Muahahaha! BRB starting in third gear from a stop sign to prevent wheelspin on 205 sticky tires WITH a quaife LSD.. Fastest import down the drag strip, here I come. |
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January 21st, 2014, 12:17 PM | #24 |
ninjette.org certified postwhore
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DJ108 bigger main jet is a success. This bike really GOES. I'm hitting 70+ by the time I get to the top of third, and 4th gear just keeps pulling until I run out of road and have to let off...
Going to take it up higher in elevation when I have the chance and see if I get any bogging due to rich mixture at WOT. So far it's been rock solid up to 1600', in 70* weather. Thanks for the help guys. We're getting there. |
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January 21st, 2014, 07:57 PM | #25 |
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Woot woot!! Isn't carb tuning a blast?! Haha
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