What do you get when?

[fast1075]

What do you get when.....you cross a 2006 ninja 250 with a GSX-600?

OR, Wheels, brakes, and forks from a 1992 GSf600f/m on a 2006 250 ninja.

Dual discs, rebound adjustment, and 17" wheels!!!!! I just picked up a complete rolling chassis. I have been longing for "two finger" brakes on the Ninja since I bought it.

"Winter Project"!!!!! All Balls has the head bearings. In fact, the lower bearings are the same between the two bikes. I used GSX wheels when I built my Mutant DRZ-400. And the rear wheel uses the same size axle as the Ninja.

Can't wait to get the donor torn down and get started.

[csmith12]

[Sirref]

I want to do a similar project with my pregen, 16" wheels just don't have the tire selection that 17" wheels do.

[Hero Danny]

No pictures?

[fast1075]

No pictures yet. It was dark when I picked it up, and the skeeterz were trying to carry me off. Winter sux, dark at 5:45 here now.

[cbinker]

[fast1075]

Crappy cell phone pic. All the important stuff is there. BBQ grill I built for my boss is in the background.

[fast1075]

It looks like the forks are only a tiny bit wider than the stockers, they should clear the fairing. The next question is the steering stem. I have a friend that owns a cycle graveyard. I'll see if he has a junk 250 frame, so I can test fit the forks. There is no real way to see if they are the right length otherwise, and I don't want to tear down my bike first.

The wheels and brakes look good. Some cleanup and paint or powder coat will take care of the finish after dealing with some rattle can paint.

Does anyone know the inside width of a pre-gen swing arm at the axle?

The front wheel is 3" wide and the rear is 3.5 inches. I plan on running pilot street radials in 110 & 130 which will work great.

[fast1075]

Talked to my scrap yard buddy today. He says he has a 250 frame I can have to test fit the front end. Hope to pick it up tomorrow and make some progress Saturday.

[alex.s]

can we see more pics of the grill?

[fast1075]

I only had this one pic at home. I have more on my shop computer. It has a ponded wet divider it has water fill and drain. You can see the water drain and fill valves in front of the fender The box is sized for the volume of the body. It maintains +-10 degrees front to back.

The tail lights/tag assembly (not in place in this pic) is high mount and removable before firing the box so nothing is in the way or gets fried. I didn't make the custom "UR" flame decoration. That was water jet cut by a friend. The fire box is 1/4" mild steel, the main body is 3/8" thickness steel pipe. The firebox has dual sliding air vents. I'll post more pics tomorrow.

[fast1075]

Made some progress today, in that I tore the donor bike apart, and checked a few things.

If the triple clamp fits, the forks will fit and work with the stock fairings since the fork tubes measured outside to outside are only 7mm wider than the stock forks. They are more or less the same length too. The triple clamps are actually narrower than the stock clamps because of the way the pinch bolts are set up. The length of the steering necks between the two is pretty close too. The 250 chassis my friend will loan me for setup is in the bottom of a pile frames and bike parts, and I haven't gone and dug it out. That will be a real PITA. I think I will order a set of bearings from All Balls. The lower bearings are the same for the 250 and the Kat 600. If I get upper bearings for the 250 and the adapter bearing for the Kat tree, I can just put the new bearings in no matter which way it goes. The Kat wheel has a speedo drive, a real bonus if the cable will reach and hook up. It uses the standard screw on threaded connector as most bikes.

I may even be able to fit the rear wheel in the stock swing arm. The inside to inside measurement of the Kat arm is approx. 9", and the 250 is pretty close to that. They both use the same axle size. And there is room to play with brake hanger thickness and spacing and such.

One of the front discs is bent, but the wheel and the brake calipers look fine. The rear disc is pretty eaten up, but the rest looks good. None of the hardware is missing. The finish on the fork tubes is ok, no oil leaks. The wipers are crakes and dried out, but I will put new seals and stuff in anyway if it all works out.

I'll order the bearings and such, meanwhile I'll dismount the tires, and go to work refinishing the wheels and such.

[fast1075]

I ordered the bearings and the seal wipers, and a set of used brake discs from Ebay. When the bearings come in, the bike is going on the lift to trial fit the steering stem. I will try to take some pictures as I go.

[fast1075]

It was a gloomy day and misting rain here, and the lighting in my shop sucks. I took this single picture after I removed the headlight and handlebars. I went to Harbor Freight and bought a table buffer and some compound to clean up some of the bright bits. The rest, I will take to the coating shop and have ceramic coated black.

[csmith12]

@fast1075 - I like it!

[fast1075]

OK, a little update. Sad to say my old cell phone camera croaked, so no new pics (yet), so verbally, good news, bad news.

I got a complete 250 triple tree for free to fiddle with. Pics sure would be handy. Anyways, there is no way the stock 600 stem will work in the ninja frame. But all is not lost, just the "fiddle with some parts and make it fit without much effort" part.

The problem: the 600 stem is too short to work properly and safely. The only way to use the stock 600 stem would be to shorten the neck, and that is not happening.

The good news: The stem diameters at the bottom are the same. So the old machine out the welds, press the stems out, press the 250 stem into the 600 tree, weld it up....bingo! Easy, right? Ok, beyond most backyard tool kits. Fortunately, I have the tools, if the stems will co-operate. (sometimes they just by gosh refuse to be pressed apart, but that won't stop me from trying at this point. This is the only major hurdle, other than machining out the opening in the top clamp for the larger diameter 250 stem. (that piece of work is going to my machinist).

The steering stop tabs on the 600 tree look like they will work, may need a little trimming, but not hard.

Again, pics would be nice, but the tree is narrower by a good bit than the stocker because of the pinch bolt locations.

My bearings came in today, and the disc set from ebay will be here tomorrow. So after I get the stem thing ironed out, it's clean up, refresh the calipers, some pads, sand and paint the fender, find a proper size tire, (It has a 120/70 on the front now and it fits that 3" rim like crap).

The whole idea for the way I am approaching this is, "do not damage, or modify any stock parts, so it can be out back stone stock id I want to" The entire stock front end, and all the pieces will be stored.

Once I get the front end done, if I like it, I will go to work on the rear to get all the benefits I am looking for.

By the way, does anyone have a PreGen swing arm lying around to take an accurate inside width measurement at the axle?

Hope to get the pic thing sorted soon.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by fast1075

........... The problem: the 600 stem is too short to work properly and safely. The only way to use the stock 600 stem would be to shorten the neck, and that is not happening.............

Consider stretching the tube by cutting it by the middle, inserting a machined aligning part and welding all around.

[Finesse]

PICS or it didn't happen!!!!!!!!!!! This will be great.

Gotta love that two-finger power

[Somchai]

Even without pictures i enjoy this thread

[fast1075]

Still no pics, but I got a little more done yesterday. I ground the weld off the stem on the donor 250 triple and pressed it out. It is ready for installation in the 600 lower clamp.

My lathe is not big enough to use to machine the weld off the 600 clamp. I will take it, and the 600 upper to my machinist, and have him remove the stem from the 600 clamp, and bore/mill the upper for the larger stem size from the 250. once that is done, and the 250 stem pressed in and welded, the most major part is done, I think.

My used front discs came in yesterday, and aside from needing some cleanup, they look fine. Glad I didn't have to buy them new! The pads for the front brakes are worn out, but SCORE!!!! Motorcycle SuperStore had some Vesrah HH pads on clearance for $14.95 a set.

I buffed the fork tubes. They had the obligatory flat black paint overspray on them. There is some minor pitting in the finish at the top on both. No big deal, my stock forks are worse, and that part will be invisible when installed.

I am taking the front wheel to the local tire store to have the tire dismounted on Saturday so I can go to work cleaning, sanding, and repainting the wheel.

If anyone has their rear wheel off their pregen, please measure the inside width for me. Metric, or inches/decimal measurements are fine, thanks.

[fast1075]

Dropped off the parts at the machinist today. He will remove the stem from the 600 tree, and bore/mill the top plate to fit the 250 stem. Easy-peasy if you have a mill and a good size lathe. Unfortunately, it may take a while to get the parts back... Still have plenty to do.

[cuong-nutz]

Cool project! I still need to get a GSXR or ZX6r Wheel to finish my front end rebuild.

[fast1075]

Yesterday I took the rotors off the front wheel, and dismounted the old tire. Double checked the wheel, it is true and undamaged.

[fast1075]

The guy I got the 250 triple tree from is giving me a 250 swing arm. I'll measure it up, and post it for posterity. Drum roll please.

[fast1075]

Let me start by saying sorry, no pics yet. But here goes.

(a) The Suzuki swingarm has an inside width of 228 mm, but has no chain adjusters on the wheel side of the arm.

(b) The PreGen 250 swingarm has an inside width of 233 mm, but has chain adjusters on the inside of the arm. If we allow a couple mm for each chain adjuster, the inside width of the two arms is virtually the same.

(c) As mentioned earlier, the axle sizes are identical.

(d) This is where the no pics thing begins to suck a bit. I put the Suzuki wheel in the PreGen swingarm using the stock Suzuki parts and spacers. I didn't have any spare chain adjusters, so there are a few mm of play that will go away with chain adjusters, and maybe a thin washer. The former owner of the donor bike installed a 160 size tire, so, keeping in mind, the proper 130 size tire will give plenty of clearance. The 160 clears the sprocket, but interferes with the bolt head on the front of the brake torque arm, but no worries, the stupidly too wide 160 is going in the recycle bin. The Pregen brake torque link lines up and bolted to the Suzuki caliper!!! It may need a tweak after all the spacing is figured out, but is close. I will need a new rear brake rotor since the old one is chewed up pretty good. The brake rotor is 240 mm. The stock PreGen rotor is 230 mm. I may explore using the PreGen brake hanger and caliper by turning the replacement Suzuki rotor to 230 mm.

(e) So at this point, for the rear, the last question is sprocket offset, and I have plenty of room to play with it. It should be straight forward to measure the sprocket-to-swingarm spacing on my bike and adjust accordingly. Motorcycle Superstore has some 45 tooth 520 conversion Katana sprockets on sale too.

This is the point in a project where you go "Crap, this is going too good". I am resisting buying tires until I know all will work.

[fast1075]

Today, I measured the sprocket offset on the 250 and compared it to the 600.

The sprocket carrier on the Kat wheel has the sprocket too close to the swingarm. This may just mean more parts juggling. When I built the DRZ400 I used GSX wheels. I found then that a carrier from a GS500E carries the sprocket quite a bit farther inboard than the GSX, by maybe 17? mm. I will space the wheel in the arm, and tighten the axle, them measure how much inboard offset I need to get it right.

On the dizzy, the trick was fitting the parts in a skinny swingarm. On this one the 250 arm is actually wider. A GS hub will get me close. I have ordered a hub from E-bay, and will measure it out after it gets here.

My machinist called me today, and I may possibly get my triple tree parts back tomorrow. I will weld the 250 stem into the Katana bottom clamp and test fit the upper clamp and tubes. If it is all in line, I can go ahead and press on the lower bearing and dust seal.

My brake pads will be in tomorrow, and I am stopping by the powder coater to talk about the wheels, but I am not having them coated till the trial fit up is done.

[fast1075]

pic showing the relative difference in stem length. This is after pressing the stems out of the trees. The top stem is from the 250, the bottom is from the 600.

Note the center of the bearing area on the 250 stem is in the middle of the threaded part of the 600 stem. no way the Kat stem will work. Note that the installed length of the 250 stem is 220 mm....find that spec anywhere else.

[fast1075]

Pics of the clamps. Pic on left is 250 top clamp in foreground. Notice it is actually wider than the 600 clamp due to the positioning of the tube clamps. (OK, there is some parallax, but the 250 clamp is wider).The 600 top is in the background. It has been milled and bored to fit the 250 stem and to get the correct thickness.

The pic on the right is the 600 lower after the stem has been removed. I will press the 250 stem in to the required 220 mm and weld it up.

[fast1075]

Swingarm inside width. 250 ninja on the left, 600 Kat on right. I would have never believed it until I saw it that the 250 has the wider arm, at least at the axle.

[fast1075]

I stuck the Kat wheel in the spare 250 swingarm. I didn't have a spare 250 axle, and the Kat axle is longer because the swingarm is rectangular tubing, so I stuck a spacer on it for test fit.

No pics, bit the sprocket offset from the axle adjuster on the 250 is 1.08". The offset with the Kat wheel is about .278 closer. I think I will need to move the wheel a little more left to center the rim, but I have a GS500e sprocket carrier coming that is "thinner" (exactly how much for sure, I won't know till I measure it when it gets in). But at least it fits this good so far.

I can't believe the PO crammed a 160/60 on that 3.5" rim. I am quite sure that with a 130/70, I will have plenty of room to work with.

[fast1075]

Today my alternate sprocket carrier from a GS500e came in. Tomorrow, I will take a comparison pic to post. If I use it, it will move the sprocket closer to the rim. I need to measure how the stock wheel centers up for comparison so I can juggle the wheel around. I took the tire off the rear rim. Actually, I took the wheel to my local tire shop, and took the tire off so I have a better idea if what I have to work with. More on that later. I am waiting for a set of chain adjusters so I can accurately model the set up.

Tomorrow, I will set up the triple tree and weld it together. Tons of time consuming stuff to do. Looks like it may be another dreary weekend, so I will have plenty of time to putz around with it.

[fast1075]

The pics show the Kat GSX600F and GS500e carriers and bearing retainers.
The relative difference is .597 or 15.16 mm.

[fast1075]

Had an hour to fiddle with it after work. The GSX600f sprocket holder had the wheel spaced decidedly to the right. I swapped in the GS500e sprocket carrier.
The results were nothing short of amazing. The sprocket offset is within a few thou of the stock spacing on the 250. The wheel is centered within 1/16". Pics

I need to make a spacer approx. .560 to go between the brake hanger and the chain adjuster, and the brake torque arm needs a new kink in it. If I haven't missed anything, that is all the mod required. I am going to machine the spacer tomorrow and take a closer look to make sure there is nothing else.

There HAS to be an evil gremlin hiding. this is TOO easy. OK, minor gremlin. The pistons in the rear caliper are FUBAR from rust. Needs a complete rebuild.

[fast1075]

Welded 250 stem into GSX600f lower triple clamp. It welded up straight and the forks slide easily together.

The front brake hose mount bolts to the bottom of the triple clamp, and both mount bolts twisted in two taking it off. I sandblasted the mount area and the hose mount and welded it in place.

Painted the lower triple tree and brake line mount semi gloss black.

Machined a spacer for the brake mount and reassemble the rear wheel. With the spacer, and the axle tight, I lost some sprocket offset. The sprocket is .214 to the left of ideal with the wheel centered in the arm. I'm going to call that good for now. If I have an alignment issue, I will face the sprocket carrier back.

I need a 45 tooth sprocket in 520, so I ordered a JT Sprockets JTA523.45 from Motorcycle superstore. Which fits the GS500e (and a host of other Suzuki models) sprocket hub.

I cut the offsets in the brake anchor, and fabbed the reinforcements. It will be good to go after welding, smoothing and painting.

I took the rear caliper apart, and the pistons are too rusty to polish out and reuse. I scored a good caliper with nearly new pads from Ebay for $21.00.

Cleaning up the front wheel, the last time it got bearings, they beat the seals all to hell. No big deal, those little bearings are cheap, and they have to come out for powdercoat anyways.

The speedo cable is usable as is the drive. Hopefully the cable will screw in place on my speedo. If not, I can make a cable if I have to. Done that before.

Still need to strip the paint from the fork legs and repaint them and install seals and wipers.

Tomorrow, I sand a zillion layers of paint from the front fender after I check it closely for cracks n such. I may look at using the 250 fender if I can fab a mount, but the Kat fender other than being physically a little larger, has the same basic shape.

Still have to check out the front calipers and clean them up to make sure they are ok, then it's wait time and budget stretch time. I am still pretty sure I will get the Michelin Street tires, I have so far resisted going cheaper.

[fast1075]

Went to the shop today to work on cleaning up some parts. I have a media blast cabinet that can handle up to "wheel size" stuff. I loaded in some small parts to get rid of the layers of paint. I have to let the old air compressor run a while to build up steam because It may be as old as me. An old Devilbiss twin cylinder belt drive monster.

After I had it on for 1/2 hour, and still no pressure to speak of, I took a look at it. And it is basically dead. We have had it for over 30 years, and it has an incredible story. When we first opened the shop in '83 an junk man (recycler) stopped by to try to buy the old AC units we had. In the back of his trailer, upside down on an air tank with a hole rusted thru, was an old air compressor.

I spun the flywheel and it made appropriate valve noises. We didn't have an air compressor, so I asked the old guy how much he wanted for it. He said it was worth $15.00 for scrap, so I bought it. Boss thought I was crazy.

I scrounged up a tank, and a motor, and hooked it up. It has supplied us with air for all those years with regular oil changes and such. My old friend has died.

Tomorrow, I am pulling it, and taking it to the compressor shop, but it will most likely be an autopsy, not a repair. I seriously doubt parts are still available for it. It could possibly be as old as from the 40's.

This set me back on the work for my 250. I went to Home Depot and bought a compressor to get me by, but I really want my old friend back.

Anyways, I got some stuff media blasted and painted. I'm going in early tomorrow and finish taking the bearings out of my wheels and taking them to the powder coat shop. Once I get the wheels back, and get some tires, the 250 is going on the bench to get started. That is usually the really interesting part. All the little detail stuff that has to fit and still look like it is supposed to be that way.

[fast1075]

Been busy cleaning reindeer poop, and all that Merry Ho Ho stuff. Not much happening till after Jan 1. Then, I will be back on it. More stuff on order, holidays wreck shipping schedules.

Ran into a small problem with the front wheel. After spending hours with aircraft paint remover, I got the zillion layers of paint off. The wheel started out purple!, then white, then black, then gold, then gawd knows how much more black.

Got it nice and clean, then found a crack in it on the right side disc boss that was hidden by all the paint. Minor setback. Found a different wheel on E-bay that looks so good, I MAY be able to skip the powder coat and go straight to assembly for the front.

[snot]

Pics of the crack?
There are places that can repair them, it just depends on where.
My used rim had a pc broken off on the hub, a friend welded it (aluminum filler wire) then I sanded...good as new.

[fast1075]

The damaged wheel is resting comfortably in the recycle bin. The crack is thru a disc hub boss. Not even considering repair. But thanks for the suggestion!

[fast1075]

Media blasted some more small parts and painted them. Spent hours studying replacement shocks. Ordered a 2005 GSXR 1000 shock from Ebay for $21.00. At 9,600 miles, my stock shock is really losing rebound control.

New sprocket comes in Monday. New front rim should be here Tuesday or Wednesday. The rear brake caliper came in yesterday. It looks like new, and has great pads on it.

The pile of "done" is getting bigger, and the pile of "needs done" is slowly shrinking.

Last two big hurdles are powder coat for the wheels, and buying tires.

[fast1075]

Got bored today and drove over to the nearest Cycle Gear store. Found a good deal on a front tire, a Bridgestone S20 in 110/70/R17. Snagged it.

I ran S20's on the Buell, and dang do those things hook up. Wear quick (about the same as a Q2), but awesome traction. Will be a great front tire to go with "hell yeah" brakes!