Getting Good Gas Mileage with a Bigger CC Engine

ilovejesus · October 20th, 2012, 09:43 PM

Can you get better gas mileage with (for example) a 1000cc sportbike bike cruising in 6th gear all the time?

Alex · October 20th, 2012, 09:44 PM

Better than what?

lgk · October 20th, 2012, 09:55 PM

depends on a lot of factors but if you apply hypermiling techniques, you should get better mileage than standard riding.

depending on the bike and how its its tuned, the effort may not be worth it though.

psych0hans · October 20th, 2012, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilovejesus

Can you get better gas mileage with (for example) a 1000cc sportbike bike cruising in 6th gear all the time?

If you mean better than a 1000cc constantly redlining, vs a 1000cc doing more "sane" revs... yeah, why not...

Jiggles · October 20th, 2012, 10:01 PM

Yes.

ilovejesus · October 20th, 2012, 10:16 PM

Quote:

hypermiling techniques

Can you enlighten me? lol
And the bike I'm looking at is the Yamaha FZ8
http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/pr...52/0/home.aspx

Monkeytofu · October 20th, 2012, 11:40 PM

39 mpg. Eeesh.

FrugalNinja250 · October 21st, 2012, 06:24 AM

Some basics on gasoline piston engines: One of the things that affects engine efficiency (how much gasoline it takes to get a specific amount of work done) is pumping losses. When the piston is going down and drawing air in past the carb throttle plate, it takes energy to do that, energy which comes from burning gasoline. It's like trying to breathe through a straw, the smaller the straw the harder it is to do it. Pumping losses are fairly significant energy consumers, so anything you do to decrease them helps gas mileage.

The amount of energy it takes to cruise at a given speed is fairly consistent. Say it takes 15 HP to cruise at 60mph. That 15HP will be fairly constant across different models of bikes regardless of engine size and max power rating. Engines are mainly air pumps, and the larger the motor the more air gets pumped through it. However, air flow through the motor is a function of power output, so the larger the motor, the smaller the relative throttle opening will be. The smaller the relative throttle opening, the more internal power is used to pull air through the throttle, so all things being equal a larger motor will get less gas mileage, due mainly to pumping losses. To get the best efficiency you need to use the smallest motor that will get the job done and run it wide open, full throttle.

You can google "brake specific fuel consumption" for more info on the subject. As an aside, one of the several reasons that diesels get better efficiency than gasoline motors is because diesels typically don't have throttle plates, air is drawn into the motor through just a wide-open hole with an air filter on it. Diesels can function through a wide range of air/fuel mixtures, so throttling is accomplished by varying the absolute amount of fuel being injected into the combustion chamber. Gasoline engines require a very accurate ratio between air and fuel, so they're throttled by restricting air flow into the combustion chamber rather than the fuel as in diesels.

Motofool · October 21st, 2012, 06:42 AM

Excellent post, Frugal

This bike is fuel injected, which help to reduce the explained problem, since the bottle neck effect of the critical diameter of the crab's throttle is improved with a higher diameter for air intake.

However, the butterfly valve remains, as well as the partially open condition at anything less than WOT.

Another factor is aerodynamics at high speeds.
This bike is naked, which works against fuel economy at any speed above 50 ~ 60 mph.

Stay with the 250 cc if fuel economy is important to you.

ninjamunky85 · October 21st, 2012, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilovejesus

Can you enlighten me? lol

http://ecomodder.com/forum/EM-hyperm...ecodriving.php

My favorite is rule #47. Drive without brakes.

Brakes only slow you down.

Yasko · October 21st, 2012, 07:03 AM

I'm getting 48+ on my 600cc.

Bassman · October 21st, 2012, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ninjamunky85

http://ecomodder.com/forum/EM-hyperm...ecodriving.php

My favorite is rule #47. Drive without brakes.

Brakes only slow you down.

Thanks for the hypermiling link. Since I bought my Ninja for it’s MPG (and looks, lol), I’m always looking to improve my hypermiling techniques.

Soujyu · October 22nd, 2012, 02:51 PM

The answer, from my experience, is that yes, it's possible. However, it means you have to ride the bike like an old lady.

For my bike, it means that I cannot exceed 6000 rpm. If you want a 250R analogy, it's basically like having to ride under Kawasaki's suggested breakin procedure for the first 600 miles no matter what.

However, you also have to be careful to not lug the engine (that will kill your fuel efficiency pretty quickly as well). I usually use a formula for the gear I want for a certain speed.

Bill N · October 22nd, 2012, 03:06 PM

Lots of variables in the real world. Little motors like the Ninjette have great MPG in stop and go commuter type riding. While your sitting at the stoplight at idle next to a 1000cc bike or 5000cc Mustang you are way more efficient. Also in traffic both bikes aren't developing much horsepower. The lighter bike will be more efficient than the bigger bike which is heavier and consumes more gas to accelerate. On the open road at high speeds things change to the advantage of the larger bikes. As an exterme example, I'm confident that if I held 100 MPH on my 1300 FJR for one hour it would get way better milage than my Ninjette doing the same thing. The poor little 250 would be at the top of its ability while the FJR is just crusin'
Bill

KELPHYN · October 22nd, 2012, 03:30 PM

I regularly ride with 1000cc bikes. If we are travelling 110kmph and under I kick their ass at the gas pump. From 110-130kmph I generally take about a litre less at the pumps, as we start pushing 140kmph we're about the same. After that they usually get better mileage and I'm taking a litre more at the pump.

CC Cowboy · October 22nd, 2012, 03:36 PM

I rode with a buddy of mine (not on the same bike)for the last week. We got the same MPG and I have 2 more cylinders.

ninjaone · October 22nd, 2012, 04:45 PM

Generally it's usually all about the engine, what it was designed to do, and how you use it. Typically fuel economy is a very distant thought for motorcycle designers, they design the engine with the first goal of giving the maximum power possible, and any thought or design of economy is usually tacked on at the end, such as restricting exhaust under certain RPMs, or playing other games to get the engine and exhaust legal.

There are larger bikes then the Ninja 250R which get better mileage. Honda has been pushing hard into more efficient engine configurations lately, I think the NC700X is a good example of a bike designed with economy in front of performance - in fact I think that's one of the only motorcycles available today which makes that trade off. But if your goal is to get a liter sport bike to have better mileage then the Ninja 250R, then generally it isn't going to happen unless you practice pretty extremely hypermiling - effectively working around what the engine was primarily designed to do (go fast) - and in that case why even buy it? It simply isn't what the engine was designed to do.

choneofakind · October 22nd, 2012, 09:11 PM

^^ don't forget that the 250 has carbs. At the top, they dump fuel in, and at the bottom, they suck, requiring more throttle, which uses more gas.

FI is more precise and more adjustable. That's how the 650 gets roughly the same mileage as the 250.

October 20th, 2012, 09:43 PM	#1
ilovejesus ninjette.org member Name: David Location: Florida Join Date: Jun 2012 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Kawasaki Ninja 250r Posts: 77	Getting Good Gas Mileage with a Bigger CC Engine Can you get better gas mileage with (for example) a 1000cc sportbike bike cruising in 6th gear all the time? __________________________________________________ Saved by Grace

October 20th, 2012, 09:44 PM	#2
Alex ninjette.org dude Name: 1 guess :-) Location: SF Bay Area Join Date: Jun 2008 Motorcycle(s): '13 Ninja 300 (white, the fastest color!), '13 R1200RT, '14 CRF250L, '12 TT-R125LE Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 7	Better than what? __________________________________________________ Montgomery Street Motorcycle Club / cal24.com / crf250l.org / ninjette.org ninjette.org Terms of Service Shopping for motorcycle parts or equipment? Come here first. The friendliest Ninja 250R/300/400 forum on the internet! (especially Unregistered)

October 20th, 2012, 09:55 PM	#3
lgk ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Jason Location: Norfolk, VA Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2012 EX250, 2014 EX300 Posts: A lot.	depends on a lot of factors but if you apply hypermiling techniques, you should get better mileage than standard riding. depending on the bike and how its its tuned, the effort may not be worth it though. __________________________________________________ Ethioknight Memorial Fund- Sticker sale http://www.ninjette.org/forums/showthread.php?t=111700

October 20th, 2012, 10:01 PM	#5
Jiggles Jigglin' your Jiglets Name: Sean Location: San Jose, Ca Join Date: Jun 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2009 K1300S, 2013 Ninja 300, 2011 Ninja 250R, Faster than Unregistered's ninjette Posts: Too much. Blog Entries: 1 MOTM - Apr '13	Yes. __________________________________________________ If the Ninja 250 doesn't have enough power for you, then you don't know how to ride it. AFM #676 Supersports are for n00bs

October 21st, 2012, 06:42 AM	#9
Motofool Daily Ninjette rider Name: Hernan Location: Florida Join Date: Mar 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2007 Ninja 250 Posts: A lot. MOTY - 2016, MOTM - Dec '12, Jan '14, Jan '15, May '16	Excellent post, Frugal This bike is fuel injected, which help to reduce the explained problem, since the bottle neck effect of the critical diameter of the crab's throttle is improved with a higher diameter for air intake. However, the butterfly valve remains, as well as the partially open condition at anything less than WOT. Another factor is aerodynamics at high speeds. This bike is naked, which works against fuel economy at any speed above 50 ~ 60 mph. Stay with the 250 cc if fuel economy is important to you. __________________________________________________ *Motofool* *.................................Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly* "Mankind is composed of two sorts of men — those who love and create, and those who hate and destroy. Love is the bond between men, the way to teach and the center of the world." - José Martí

October 20th, 2012, 11:40 PM	#7
Monkeytofu I told you bro Name: Noor Location: Austin, Texas Join Date: Jun 2012 Motorcycle(s): 1996 Ninja 250r Posts: 680	39 mpg. Eeesh.

October 21st, 2012, 06:24 AM	#8
FrugalNinja250 ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Frugal Location: Dallas/Fort Worth (DFW) Join Date: Mar 2010 Motorcycle(s): Several Posts: A lot.	Some basics on gasoline piston engines: One of the things that affects engine efficiency (how much gasoline it takes to get a specific amount of work done) is pumping losses. When the piston is going down and drawing air in past the carb throttle plate, it takes energy to do that, energy which comes from burning gasoline. It's like trying to breathe through a straw, the smaller the straw the harder it is to do it. Pumping losses are fairly significant energy consumers, so anything you do to decrease them helps gas mileage. The amount of energy it takes to cruise at a given speed is fairly consistent. Say it takes 15 HP to cruise at 60mph. That 15HP will be fairly constant across different models of bikes regardless of engine size and max power rating. Engines are mainly air pumps, and the larger the motor the more air gets pumped through it. However, air flow through the motor is a function of power output, so the larger the motor, the smaller the relative throttle opening will be. The smaller the relative throttle opening, the more internal power is used to pull air through the throttle, so all things being equal a larger motor will get less gas mileage, due mainly to pumping losses. To get the best efficiency you need to use the smallest motor that will get the job done and run it wide open, full throttle. You can google "brake specific fuel consumption" for more info on the subject. As an aside, one of the several reasons that diesels get better efficiency than gasoline motors is because diesels typically don't have throttle plates, air is drawn into the motor through just a wide-open hole with an air filter on it. Diesels can function through a wide range of air/fuel mixtures, so throttling is accomplished by varying the absolute amount of fuel being injected into the combustion chamber. Gasoline engines require a very accurate ratio between air and fuel, so they're throttled by restricting air flow into the combustion chamber rather than the fuel as in diesels.

October 21st, 2012, 07:03 AM	#11
Yasko Texas Newbie Name: John Location: D/FW Texas Join Date: Sep 2010 Motorcycle(s): 07 Ninja EX250, 07 FZ6 Posts: A lot.	I'm getting 48+ on my 600cc.

October 22nd, 2012, 02:51 PM	#13
Soujyu ninjette.org sage Name: W Location: Austin, TX Join Date: Mar 2010 Motorcycle(s): 2010 Ninja 250R (sold), 2012 Tuono V4R Posts: 512	The answer, from my experience, is that yes, it's possible. However, it means you have to ride the bike like an old lady. For my bike, it means that I cannot exceed 6000 rpm. If you want a 250R analogy, it's basically like having to ride under Kawasaki's suggested breakin procedure for the first 600 miles no matter what. However, you also have to be careful to not lug the engine (that will kill your fuel efficiency pretty quickly as well). I usually use a formula for the gear I want for a certain speed. __________________________________________________ 2010 Kawasaki Ninja 250R - "Aria" (sold) 2012 Aprilia Tuono V4R - "Perrine" Proof that Harleys and Ninjettes are friendly with each other

October 22nd, 2012, 03:06 PM	#14
Bill N ninjette.org member Name: Bill Location: Tampa Fl Join Date: Dec 2008 Motorcycle(s): 250 Ninja Posts: 180	Lots of variables in the real world. Little motors like the Ninjette have great MPG in stop and go commuter type riding. While your sitting at the stoplight at idle next to a 1000cc bike or 5000cc Mustang you are way more efficient. Also in traffic both bikes aren't developing much horsepower. The lighter bike will be more efficient than the bigger bike which is heavier and consumes more gas to accelerate. On the open road at high speeds things change to the advantage of the larger bikes. As an exterme example, I'm confident that if I held 100 MPH on my 1300 FJR for one hour it would get way better milage than my Ninjette doing the same thing. The poor little 250 would be at the top of its ability while the FJR is just crusin' Bill

October 22nd, 2012, 03:30 PM	#15
KELPHYN ninjette.org guru Name: Calvin Location: Quesnel, B.C Join Date: Aug 2009 Motorcycle(s): '08 250R (sold), 2013 300SE Posts: 276	I regularly ride with 1000cc bikes. If we are travelling 110kmph and under I kick their ass at the gas pump. From 110-130kmph I generally take about a litre less at the pumps, as we start pushing 140kmph we're about the same. After that they usually get better mileage and I'm taking a litre more at the pump.

October 22nd, 2012, 03:36 PM	#16
CC Cowboy ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Whodat Location: Ware Is.,MA Join Date: Jan 2009 Motorcycle(s): I pass the wind! Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '13, Jun '14	I rode with a buddy of mine (not on the same bike)for the last week. We got the same MPG and I have 2 more cylinders. __________________________________________________ If everything seems under control; you're just not going fast enough! Last futzed with by CC Cowboy; October 22nd, 2012 at 05:04 PM.

October 22nd, 2012, 04:45 PM	#17
ninjaone ninjette.org member Name: Chris Location: Phx Join Date: Jul 2012 Motorcycle(s): CBR Posts: 145	Generally it's usually all about the engine, what it was designed to do, and how you use it. Typically fuel economy is a very distant thought for motorcycle designers, they design the engine with the first goal of giving the maximum power possible, and any thought or design of economy is usually tacked on at the end, such as restricting exhaust under certain RPMs, or playing other games to get the engine and exhaust legal. There are larger bikes then the Ninja 250R which get better mileage. Honda has been pushing hard into more efficient engine configurations lately, I think the NC700X is a good example of a bike designed with economy in front of performance - in fact I think that's one of the only motorcycles available today which makes that trade off. But if your goal is to get a liter sport bike to have better mileage then the Ninja 250R, then generally it isn't going to happen unless you practice pretty extremely hypermiling - effectively working around what the engine was primarily designed to do (go fast) - and in that case why even buy it? It simply isn't what the engine was designed to do.

October 22nd, 2012, 09:11 PM	#18
choneofakind ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: . Location: . Join Date: Feb 2011 Motorcycle(s): . Posts: Too much. MOTM - Feb '13, Feb '14	^^ don't forget that the 250 has carbs. At the top, they dump fuel in, and at the bottom, they suck, requiring more throttle, which uses more gas. FI is more precise and more adjustable. That's how the 650 gets roughly the same mileage as the 250.

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