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Old January 15th, 2019, 11:53 AM   #1
Guaire
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No Headlight '04

I'm working on a 2004 that sat for a year. After installing a new battery I checked the electrics. The headlight worked. Now it doesn't work. In the fuse panel the headlight fuse connector, the lower plug goes to ground. The upper fuse junction doesn't connect. I checked with the ignition off and the ignition on.
Using a Power Probe the 3 wire switch reads grounds. I can apply a 12v to any of the wires. When I do, the headlight turns on. I can pull the Probe away and the the light stays on. When I turn off the ignition, then on again, I get nothing again. I do have a schematic from Cyclepedia. I don't know enough to figure this one out.
Any suggestions?
Bill
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Old January 15th, 2019, 01:26 PM   #2
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Not sure if I understand but from the factory the ninja headlight does not come on until the bike is running. Hope that helps.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 01:33 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceeloo Yello View Post
Not sure if I understand but from the factory the ninja headlight does not come on until the bike is running. Hope that helps.
The headlight runs from a relay inside the fuse box.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 01:42 PM   #4
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Yes but it is on a delayed circuit, guess the theory is to provide more power for cranking the motor. Is your bike currently running?
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Old January 15th, 2019, 01:49 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceeloo Yello View Post
Yes but it is on a delayed circuit, guess the theory is to provide more power for cranking the motor. Is your bike currently running?
No.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 02:35 PM   #6
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Then you are probably ok. It needs current from the stator to turn on the headlight initially.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 02:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceeloo Yello View Post
Then you are probably ok. It needs current from the stator to turn on the headlight initially.
I’m not ok not having a working headlight.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 03:28 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guaire View Post
I’m not ok not having a working headlight.
I believe they're wondering whether the light turns on after the bike is running. After the bike is running if the kill switch is pressed the light will stay on, but if you turn the ignition off and then on again the bike will need to be started before the headlight will come back on. At least that's my limited understanding of it. Unsure if you can just touch the starter quick to turn the headlight circuit on.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 05:57 PM   #9
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Just so everyone knows, it is the law in the USA, that when the ignition is turned on, the headlight turns on. That isn’t a guess or a figuring.
If I had a second fuse box, I would put it in circuit to eliminate the possibility of a headlight relay gone bad.
Speaking of the stator/starter combo, is anyone familiar with the wire that returns the circuit to the relay?
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Old January 15th, 2019, 06:11 PM   #10
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yes, the light must be on when driving but...

it is off until after the engine fires.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 06:29 PM   #11
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The engine must be running.

My 2015 Honda Grom's headlight doesn't turn on until I fire the engine. Same with my 2006 Ducati.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 06:29 PM   #12
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it is off until after the engine fires.
I’ll let it ride on the headlight then. The carbs are mostly rebuilt. I will install them, then see if the old ‘04 starts, with or without the headlight. Thanks for the clarity.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 07:31 PM   #13
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Guess I have to work on my communication skills.
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Old January 15th, 2019, 07:45 PM   #14
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Guess I have to work on my communication skills.
Ditto
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Old January 15th, 2019, 09:47 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guaire View Post
Just so everyone knows, it is the law in the USA, that when the ignition is turned on, the headlight turns on. That isn’t a guess or a figuring.
uh no... Care to quote your sources for this info?
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Old January 16th, 2019, 07:09 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DannoXYZ View Post
uh no... Care to quote your sources for this info?
My 2014 Royal Enfield turns on the headlight when the ignition is turned on. The wiring in the headlight has a jumper inline. It was added to comply with US import laws. RE makes the same bike for all markets, but modifies the wiring with the jumper for the US.
My 1994 BMW K75 is the same way.
Obviously, if things are different, then things are different. Good news for me. I don’t want that headlight on until the motor is running anyway. Once the bike is in running condition and the weather isn’t too freezing and the tons of ice have melted, I may consider a MOSFET regulator/rectifier Roadstercycle.com. They work better at low RPM and they run cooler. The stock r/r is tech from the 1960s.
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Old January 16th, 2019, 09:36 AM   #17
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Cause and effect.

Very helpful for troubleshooting to not get them confused. Just because certain bikes are configured certain way (effect), does not mean there are laws that says so (cause):

NO: bikes --> laws
YES: laws --> bikes

For example, you see 3 bikes going down freeway @ 80mph (effect), so can you assume that speed-limit law (cause) is 80mph? Nope. But assuming so can get you into trouble. Here's actual text from Code of Federal Regulations:

Quote:
Title 32 - § 636.28 Special rules for motorcycles/mopeds

(d) Motorcycles/moped headlights and tail lights will be illuminated at anytime the vehicle is being operated.
I take "operated" to mean:

- it's on public roads
- engine is running
- rider is sitting on bike in approved fashion
- bike is moving or about to move

In which case, your headlight's behavior is perfectly normal and as-designed. It will turn on when you crank engine fast enough to activate headlight relay with power coming from stator-coils.
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Old January 16th, 2019, 09:52 AM   #18
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Making assumptions on how circuits work also wastes lot of time on troubleshooting as well. Injecting external power into circuits is artificial and doesn't tell you anything about how those circuits work or are not working. Can also damage sensitive components in ECU. You'll want test by measuring and coming up with numbers at various parts of circuit to determine functionality.

By looking at wiring-diagram, we see that power from ignition-switch does not go to headlights. It goes to headlight-relay which is open/off. To determine what it takes to turn on headlight-relay, measure all junctions between battery and headlight-bulb:

1. measure voltage coming out of battery
2. measure voltage going into ignition-switch
3. measure voltage going out of ignition-switch with key ON (yours may be broken)
4. remove headlight-fuse and measure resistance between legs (if I had nickel every time fuse "looks ok")
5. measure voltage going into headlight-relay (this may be broken too)
6. measure resistance between ground of bulb-socket and chassis-ground
7. measure voltage going out of headlight-relay to bulb, then crank engine.

Then it'll all make sense. You can't force circuit to work other than intended (other than re-wiring it). Measuring actual voltage allows you test wiring in between junctions as well. If you see voltage dropping unnecessarily between two junctions, there may be broken/corroded wiring or bad connectors.

In this case, headlight-relay is turned on by stator-coils getting enough power from engine spinning (goes through diode to convert to DC to activate relay). Once relay is activated, its output-power going to headlights is looped back to its activation-coil to keep it on. So once it's on, engine-cranking is no longer needed to keep it activated. As others mentioned, headlight will stay on after engine stops spinning.
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Old January 16th, 2019, 11:10 AM   #19
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"It will turn on when you crank engine fast enough to activate headlight relay with power coming from stator-coils."

Topic/headlight off? No one answered. Why all the off thread writing? You had no intention of offering help.

A professional mechanic had my GT on his lift. I saw how he used the Power Probe to show exactly what was the problem in the circuitry. The Power Probe is most useful to someone with knowledge and experience. My knowledge and experience is limited on E250s. There is a thread in this topic. You criticize what you don’t understand and run off topic. Your unwanted analysis of the techniques in using the Power Probe III are off topic, not helpful, pedantic and self indulgent at my expense. Why not explain the circuit in the first place? All the off thread writing is your way of creating obfuscation, no more, no less.

The Power Probe is very useful to someone with knowledge and experience. My knowledge and experience is limited on E250s. There is a thread in this topic. You criticize what you don’t understand and run off topic. Your unwanted analysis of the techniques in using the Power Probe III are off topic, not helpful, pedantic and self indulgent at my expense.

If a need arises for an off topic, unhelpful, wannabe know it all, I assure you, I will specifically request your participation.

Regards,
Bill Gorry

Last futzed with by Guaire; January 17th, 2019 at 08:46 AM. Reason: redundant text
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Old January 16th, 2019, 11:56 AM   #20
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Just because pro-mechanic can use Power Probe, doesn't mean that you can. An understanding of circuit from wiring-diagram is required first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guaire View Post
I'm working on a 2004 that sat for a year. After installing a new battery I checked the electrics. The headlight worked. Now it doesn't work. In the fuse panel the headlight fuse connector, the lower plug goes to ground. The upper fuse junction doesn't connect. I checked with the ignition off and the ignition on.
Using a Power Probe the 3 wire switch reads grounds. I can apply a 12v to any of the wires. When I do, the headlight turns on. I can pull the Probe away and the the light stays on. When I turn off the ignition, then on again, I get nothing again. I do have a schematic from Cyclepedia. I don't know enough to figure this one out.
Any suggestions?
We made suggestions to guide you in right direction, dispel your mistaken assumptions, and help you understand how things really work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guaire View Post
A professional mechanic had my GT on his lift. I saw how he used the Power Probe to show exactly what was the problem in the circuitry. The Power Probe is most useful to someone with knowledge and experience. My knowledge and experience is limited on E250s. There is a thread in this topic. You criticize what you don’t understand and run off topic. Your unwanted analysis of the techniques in using the Power Probe III are off topic, not helpful, pedantic and self indulgent at my expense. Why not explain the circuit in the first place? All the off thread writing is your way of creating obfuscation, no more, no less.
At least four people explained to you how headlight circuit works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceeloo Yello View Post
Not sure if I understand but from the factory the ninja headlight does not come on until the bike is running. Hope that helps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nextbesthing View Post
I believe they're wondering whether the light turns on after the bike is running. After the bike is running if the kill switch is pressed the light will stay on, but if you turn the ignition off and then on again the bike will need to be started before the headlight will come back on. At least that's my limited understanding of it. Unsure if you can just touch the starter quick to turn the headlight circuit on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrateCookie View Post
yes, the light must be on when driving but...
it is off until after the engine fires.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecN8ure View Post
The engine must be running.

My 2015 Honda Grom's headlight doesn't turn on until I fire the engine. Same with my 2006 Ducati.
You refused to believe them, so I went backwards further to show that your assumptions, which you believed as absolute truth, was holding you back, wasting time and not arriving at solution. Not just in this case, I'm sure it will hinder you in future as well.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; January 16th, 2019 at 10:00 PM.
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Old January 24th, 2019, 08:08 PM   #21
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Guaire,

Most everyone on this forum has a lot of experience with these pre-gens. Their advice is sage. We all do our best to help each other out.
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