How much should the front end move when sitting still?

[Proteus]

Lately I've had what I thought were confidence issues, where I felt uncomfortable going as fast as I used to and shaky on turns. Especially not wanting to lean the bike over very far at all.

Now I'm thinking that it might be something mechanical in my front end that is making it feel off.

This is hard to describe, but it feels kind of wobbly side-to-side, almost like I'm riding on ice. I kind of constantly feel like I'm going to fall over. My tires are newish BT-45's so I don't think it has to do with them.

I noticed today that when I'm sitting still I can wiggle the front end side to side quite a bit with a very light push, but don't remember if that's how it's supposed to be or not. It moves more than I think it should?

I'm probably going to take it in to a shop for the 7,500 mile service and have them look at it but want to try to figure this out on my own before then.

[Xtina]

it shouldn't move side to side at all. something is loose.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Xtina

it shouldn't move side to side at all. something is loose.

That's what I was worried about - any ideas on what I should check before I ride home from work today?

[Proteus]

Also I should clarify that I am talking about it moving side-to-side when I push on the bars. Going to try to take a video this afternoon.

[Floki]

What is it that is moving? I'd check your handlbar bolts, fork pinch bolts, rim spacer and the speedometer spacer, front axle nut, and steering stem nut.

[subxero]

not much going on up front

check for tightness, the front axle, check the rotor, brake caliper, the tubes in the triple, the steering stem, and the handle bars.

My thoughts are your steering tube, bearings ect...

maybe PM old3 he can tell you all about tapered roller bearings

[accumack]

Sounds like the head bearings are bad.

[Ghostt]

It's most likely something is loose, due to the age of your bike, most likely the steering head bearing nut.

[Proteus]

This is what I'm talking about, sitting on the bike in the first part of the video and then resting on the side stand.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

It's most likely something is loose, due to the age of your bike, most likely the steering head bearing nut.

Is this the hex bolt that's on top of the triple tree?

[Hercules Zanzibar!!!]

Originally Posted by Proteus

This is what I'm talking about, sitting on the bike in the first part of the video and then resting on the side stand.

Video no worky.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Hercules Zanzibar!!!

Video no worky.

Fixed it

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by Proteus

Fixed it

What was it??

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Ghostt

What was it??

Sorry, I meant that I fixed the video! Haven't done anything to the bike.

[Hercules Zanzibar!!!]

Originally Posted by Proteus

Fixed it

Indeed, thanks!

Unfortunately, I can't tell what seems wobbly. It looks like the front end moves accordingly when you move the bars??

[Proteus]

Yes, it just seems to move far more than it seems like it should while sitting still when pushing with very little force.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Proteus

This is what I'm talking about, sitting on the bike in the first part of the video and then resting on the side stand.

Steve,
The video does not show any evident thing.

Check the following:
With the steering against one of the tops, grab the front wheel with both hands and move it and try to feel some movement respect to:
- The forks.
- Both triples.
- Head bearings (tube in angle that is welded to the frame).

Then, grab the rear wheel with both hands and move it and try to feel some movement respect to:
- The swing-arm.
- Pivot of the swing-arm.

If no movement is felt, verify that the three long bolts and nuts holding the engine against the frame are not loose.

[CC Cowboy]

It seems to me that you might have run over a bird and it's caught somewhere in the front end. I can't see it but I can hear it.


Wobble bird!

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by Motofool

Steve,
The video does not show any evident thing.

Check the following:
With the steering against one of the tops, grab the front wheel with both hands and move it and try to feel some movement respect to:
- The forks.
- Both triples.
- Head bearings (tube in angle that is welded to the frame).

Then, grab the rear wheel with both hands and move it and try to feel some movement respect to:
- The swing-arm.
- Pivot of the swing-arm.

If no movement is felt, verify that the three long bolts and nuts holding the engine against the frame are not loose.

Thanks, I will try this tonight. Do the wheels need to be off the ground to test this?

[cbinker]

looks normal to me.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Proteus

Thanks, I will try this tonight. Do the wheels need to be off the ground to test this?

No, wheels can be on the ground.
In the case of the front one, it should be turned all the way against the lock of the steering.

Excessive play can happen in the (2) bearings of each wheel, in the (4) clamps that hold the forks to the triples, in the (2) bearings of the steering head and in the (2) bearings of the swing-arm pivot.

Ideally, a helper should be touching the area where play is suspected, while you push, pull and twist the wheel.
He/she will be able to feel relative movement in case that some play has developed.

The engine is a load element of the frame.
When one or more of the three bolts that connect engine and frame get loose (which can happen due to vibrations), the frame becomes excessively flexible respect to the three axis.

[Proteus]

Didn't have a chance to do this last night as we get hit with some hard rain, but it looks like it should be clear tonight.

[Proteus]

I checked the steering head nut and it is torqued properly to 44nm already.

The three engine bolts don't feel loose, and I don't feel any play in the wheels when I move them with both hands (though I may be doing this wrong.)

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Proteus

I checked the steering head nut and it is torqued properly to 44nm already.

Swing-arm pivot?

That nut that you mention only prevents the real track-nut (it serves as track for the balls and regulates how much tight the upper and lower bearings are).

Even when that nut is properly jamming the track-nut, both bearings may be excessively loose due to normal wearing and lack of lubrication or grease contamination with water.

With the front brake applied, push and pull the bike forth and back while a helper feels any play between the frame and the steering elements.

[Ghostt]

I'm sorry, but I've watched the video a bunch of times and still don't see anything wrong, the anything I can suggest is to check all the hardware to make sure nothing is lose.

[choneofakind]

Yeah, uhhhh. what are you trying to show there?


Hold the front brake, rock the bike back and forth. If you really want a helper as Hernan suggests then go for it, but you should be able to hear and feel knocking on your own that indicates loose bearings if they are loose.

if not, all I see in your video is you wiggling the bars?

[Proteus]

Yes, I guess I had just never noticed how much the bars move with very little effort when sitting still before and thought it might have something to do with what I've been feeling.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Proteus

Yes, I guess I had just never noticed how much the bars move with very little effort when sitting still before and thought it might have something to do with what I've been feeling.

The reason for which we insist on the steering bearings is that those are frequently found loose or with damaged balls.

If all is tight in the bike but the feeling persists, the tires and wheels are the next things to check for roundness and straightness.

[cbinker]

pretty sure the issue is in your head.

[corksil]

I have an XR50 ass-mover that was run into a tree by a previous owner. The front forks are broken -- holding the front brake and pushing the bike forward and backward shows 1/2" of movement between the steering stem and the axle. The front tire is not rotating, the fork tubes are flexing forward and aft 1/2" between the axle and the steering stem.

I know the feeling you may be experiencing. At highway speed (yes, a 50cc motorcycle does go 55mph if you are indeed wreckless enough to attempt..) -- the front end feels as if it wants to 'flop' from left to right. Turn right, bike feels stable and planted in a turn. Turn left, likewise.

However, travelling in a straight line -- the bike feels very wobbly. Turning slightly left or right causes the front end to feel very loose and the bike seems to 'settle' to either side.

I do have some tapered allballs racing steering stem bearings that an member on here sold me for a cheap price. I've never installed them on the 250r because I've never felt that the need would necessitate the hassle.

I'm still trying to figure out what the hype was between tapered roller bearings and typical OEM units.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by cbinker

pretty sure the issue is in your head.

I'm certainly not ruling out this possibility. I used to get over any confidence issues by telling myself "trust the bike, the bike can outperform you, and you can lean much more than you think you can." After it's been down a few times and I get it in my head that something might be wrong it's hard to trust this sentiment.

I'm going to try some more tonight, but will probably end up taking it in soon for 7,500 mile service and have them take a look as well.

I like wrenching and learning, but it's good to know my limits. I used to work on my cars a lot but the consequences of doing something incorrectly or missing something are typically less severe on four wheels than two.

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by corksil

I'm still trying to figure out what the hype was between tapered roller bearings and typical OEM units.

Cylinders vs. balls. A sphere (like round ball bearings) will contact a plane at only one point. If there's any looseness in the steering stem, it allows the bearings to move and get pounded on. Those single points of contact become flat spots that don't effortlessly roll. A cylindrical roller bearing will have a full line of contact with a plane, so it spreads the load out more. If there happen to be any tiny dents in the mating surface from the round ball bearings, a cylinder should roll over it easily too (since the rest of the cylinder is contacting the undamaged surface).

[InvisiBill]

Originally Posted by Proteus

I'm certainly not ruling out this possibility. I used to get over any confidence issues by telling myself "trust the bike, the bike can outperform you, and you can lean much more than you think you can." After it's been down a few times and I get it in my head that something might be wrong it's hard to trust this sentiment.

I'm going to try some more tonight, but will probably end up taking it in soon for 7,500 mile service and have them take a look as well.

I like wrenching and learning, but it's good to know my limits. I used to work on my cars a lot but the consequences of doing something incorrectly or missing something are typically less severe on four wheels than two.

What exactly is the problem that you think you might be seeing in the video? I'm not sure you've done a good enough job explaining what might be an issue for others to try to investigate.

Do you just think the steering turns too easily with very little force on the bars? A drastic change in how hard it is to turn the bars could be an indication of something changing inside the steering system, but generally a lack of resistance isn't a problem per se. The bars are supposed to turn pretty freely.

What you should be looking for is things moving in ways they're not supposed to. The steering stem should simply rotate in the neck. If it can wiggle forward and backward or side to side, there's an issue. The wheel should rotate around the axle. If it can move side to side or wobble, there's an issue. If any of the parts that are supposed to be bolted firmly together can wiggle around, there's an issue.

http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Steerin...ng_replacement is relevant to this thread. I'm sure a lot of people would look there for related info, but it can't hurt to have the link specifically posted.

[Proteus]

Originally Posted by InvisiBill

What exactly is the problem that you think you might be seeing in the video? I'm not sure you've done a good enough job explaining what might be an issue for others to try to investigate.

It seems that I am showing nothing in the video. I just had never paid attention to how easy it was to move the bars when stopped and sitting on the bike, and noticed it for the first time after I thought that the steering felt off and assumed that the two were connected.

I am definitely having a hard time explaining, because I'm not actually sure if there is something wrong or if I have just lost my confidence in the bike/my riding. If I knew that everything was mechanically fine I'd know it was the latter and could work from there.

The thing is, I maybe only half-know what I'm doing or what to look for.

I'm going to do some more testing/checking of things tonight.

[cbinker]

i have my front end off the ground and the steering flops around like a rag doll, just a slight vibration sends the bars to the left or right. they have always moved that freely.

[Proteus]

I have to say, I'm feeling pretty noobish right now.

[Ghostt]

Originally Posted by Proteus

I have to say, I'm feeling pretty noobish right now.

Better safe than sorry

[choneofakind]

Nahhhh, you're good!!! We all gotta start somewhere. Hell, I'm still learning every day.

[Motofool]

Originally Posted by Proteus

........... I just had never paid attention to how easy it was to move the bars when stopped and sitting on the bike, and noticed it for the first time after I thought that the steering felt off and assumed that the two were connected.
.............

Too loose steering is not good, especially with the front tire pressing against the road.

Copied from:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Steerin...ng_replacement

"If you're using OEM bearings, torque the stem nut once to 14 ft-lbs to seat the bearings, then back it off so there is no preload.

Now you have to adjust the tightness of the stem nut. Tighten the nut until it gets a bit of resistance, then back off a tad. You want it tight enough so the bars turn freely lock-to-lock with just a push of your hand (front end is still in the air). No tighter, no looser. Torque the stem head bolt to 35 ft-lbs."

[Proteus]

I got the wheels up today and tested everything some more. I don't feel any movement in either wheel, axle, swingarm pivot, or triple tree. I did, however, notice that my wheels seem to be dragging on the brakes?

The front wheel doesn't seem to spin as freely as it should and there's a lot of noise. The rear has a slight hiss but mainly just chain noise.

Is this normal? If not, how do I fix it?

Link to original page on YouTube.

Link to original page on YouTube.