Honda 919 to Zero S

[AlanDog]

Bought the 919 in November, great engine, but really too much. I was spending 90% of the time using 10% of it's power. And it was heavier than my cx500, which I didn't think was possible... they are listed as similar wet weight ~480 lbs.

I'd rather have a lighter less powerful bike; I was attracted to the 919 because it has a more upright seating position. I had replaced the clutch cable and internals because the shifting was balky but have come to realize that even though the engagement is now smooth, the engine is just so torquey it is hard to shift smoothly--and that detracts from the general usability/fun factor for me.

Was on the fence about selling it... it badly needs the front forks revalved and re-sprung... got my tax return and company bonus, and was thinking about the rc390 or the yamaha r3... but just bought a 2014 Zero S 11.4 last week (still haven't gotten delivery). So 94 HP 919 to a 54 HP Zero... I did test ride the zero and in the power mode it has got quite a pull off the line (the salesman did a burnout in the parking lot for fun).

I've had the 919 listed for a couple weeks at $2400 and only one email response. Funny. But it does have 44k miles: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/mcy/4958426470.html

[fishdip]

The 919 is one ugly looking bike to me.

[NevadaWolf]

Sweet! Congrats on the Zero.

[sharky nrk]

I think the idea of a Zero for commuting would be great, IF I had a way to charge it at work. Not sure I would be comfortable relying on one charge to get me there and back.

[NevadaWolf]

How far is your commute?

I would love one but for the desire to gear up properly. My commute is about 12 miles, even with the minimum range of like 90 odd miles (highway), that's still about 3-4 days of back and forth before the battery needs recharging.

Zero shows their maximum possible range is 185, so if you get all the necessary accessories for that you should be fine up to a 90ish mile commute.

[sharky nrk]

Originally Posted by NevadaWolf

How far is your commute?

I would love one but for the desire to gear up properly. My commute is about 12 miles, even with the minimum range of like 90 odd miles (highway), that's still about 3-4 days of back and forth before the battery needs recharging.

Zero shows their maximum possible range is 185, so if you get all the necessary accessories for that you should be fine up to a 90ish mile commute.

Mine is not that long, but its 75 or so round trip at 65-75 mph with a few hills and such. The kinda riding that sucks battery life lol. Don't see me getting a new bike anytime soon anyways but the thought is intriguing.

[NevadaWolf]

Ok, so with the highway riding that'd be just around the minimum 90 odd miles listed on the site, so yeah it'd be a daily recharge. Still think it's doable.

I'm lucky in that my work site uses electric vehicles so a power plug is in our parking lot. Am really tempted to get one for an in town runabout.

[AlanDog]

Yeah, I go 12 miles each way but don't even get on the freeway, so it's all slow (which will maximize the range), so on paper I should be able to go 4 days without charging... we'll see!

Eco-mode feels like my old pre-gen ninja 250 in terms of the lag you feel accelerating, it's kinda funny that it's completely synthetic in terms of how they mapped the power delivery...

[spooph]

Have you looked at the Brammo Empulse?

[Nny]

My other half has a 2013 Zero S. She had let me ride it home when she bought it (hadn’t let me on it since lol). Between that and the test rides I’ve done at our local Zero dealer, I can honestly say I really do appreciate what Zero brings to the table. I mean – I love the hum of an inline or the thump of a twin but riding along and only hearing the tire contact the pavement or the suspension working along with EVERYTHING about the environment you are riding in is something else. I am really tempted to get the Zero FX for myself.

Congrats on the new ride!

[liberpolly]

I like the maintenance list for those - do the brakes, update the software. done. Quite amusing.

[AlanDog]

Okay, so I picked it up Wed, and the dealer gave me a surprise: for the same price, they were throwing in the 2.8W extra battery 'power tank' -- a $2500 option on the 2015 model! I think I lucked out because anyone who was going to pay the premium for the power tank would just buy the 2015 model anyways, so they were unlikely to sell it at a decent price. I also wondered if the 'demo' bike I was given may have had battery capacity issues and so they threw in the power tank just to prevent complaints...

Just got back from a ride after work: 82 miles and got home with 24% battery capacity left--so it really does have ~100 miles of range: https://goo.gl/maps/rHCUK This route was mostly city and windy road with just a short stretch of freeway but was hitting 60+ mph on the way back. Really happy with that! I can go to Santa Cruz or SF and back, no problem.

Impressions: 1) although the acceleration is very linear with the throttle pinned, it's sort like a ninja 250 off the line, but doesn't stop building steam and continues to pull hard up to freeway speeds. It is definitely at home on the freeway, with throttle response closer to the 919 verus a ninja 250. My dealership test ride was with the SR, and the S definitely lacks the power off the line that is present on the SR. You could definitely want more power off the line with the S, but the SR is not far off the Honda 919, that is to say, it really pulls hard.

2) the lack of engine braking is really really noticeable going downhill on windy roads, essentially the bike is always in neutral (although you can program the motor regeneration). There is more resistance in 'eco mode' but in 'sport' mode you are pretty much coasting downhill. It really just shows you how much I rely on engine braking to even out the speed going into turns. Really strong front brakes, one finger is enough, but there is some brake regen going on so it didn’t engage smoothly, there was a jerky response when it kicked in. Will have to play with the programming.

3) Suspension is really nice, with all the adjustments front and rear. I have it pretty soft but never felt like the bike was moving around too much and good compliance on bumpy roads.

4) The bike has a super-short wheelbase and very little rake, although it never felt unstable, just the perception that there was very little bike in front of you—it feels like a scooter. Tight hairpins were super easy—relative to either the 919 or the cx500 this thing can turn on a dime. On those bikes, you hang off and tug the bike around like a rolling anchor. With the power tank the zero S comes in over 400 lbs (I think) but the geometry makes it feel much lighter. I was jerking the handlebars around when I got stuck behind some cars and yeah, the bike just responds instantly, the downside being you really have to pay attention in the turns—essentially it felt like I had to guide the bike around corners as opposed to just setting a line with my body positioning. But this was my first real ride and just getting used to it from my current bikes. Overall, the twisty road handling is super light and fun, well-suited for the kind of riding that I enjoy the most.

Overall, super happy.

[liberpolly]

And you are not missing the engine sound and vibration?

[AlanDog]

Not at all. The lack of vibration is nice.

Oh, that was the cool thing! You can rip through residential areas anytime day or night without being an annoyance. Full throttle and quieter than a car. The lack of noise certainly does not detract from the fun factor for me--the acceleration is there and that's what matters.

I hate bikes that are loud and in fact (living on a MAJOR motorcycle route) have to deal with the constant buzz of passing bikes with modified exhausts... like okay, grow up kids, it's just inconsiderate.

My roommate is a 25 y.o. engineer with 3 bikes who (like many) modifies his exhausts. When I started to go off about how weird I thought that was, he quickly corrected me and said that I was the weird one for not caring how my motorcycle sounded. I mean, yeah, some modified exhausts sound nice when you blip the throttle, but why would you want to live with that all day? For that 2 extra horsepower? Yeah! Anyways, that's me.

And this morning, a guy on a scooter waved at me--FIRST TIME EVER! That alone made the bike worth the price.

So, should I wave at other electric vehicles? Give the thumbs up to the Nissan Leaf driver?

[Alex]

Time to edit your profile.

[liberpolly]

I despise obnoxiously loud mufflers as well; but I was sitting at red light on my Legend gently doing "waaah-wah-wah-wah, waaah-wah-wah-wah" and realized that that's part of the fun of motorcycling for me. I totally see the draw of electric bike, for sure.

[AlanDog]

While talking with my roommate this morning it sort of dawned on us that we will now need to split the electricity bill un-evenly to account for the electricity I'll use charging the zero--which will be significant. It does seem (just based on rough paper calculation estimates) that the total energy cost will be about 1/3, but depending on how much I ride, our electricity bill could go up $20 or more... obvious, yes, but I hadn't really thought too much about it.

I'll get a kill-o-watt meter (that's the brand) to measure the actual current it draws while charging.

Rode the bike to Oakland ~45 miles taking Redwood Rd and got there with 58% battery left, plugged it in and it charged back to 100% in 4 1/2 hours, but went home on the freeway and basically the same distance sucked the battery down to 26%. So range is really about 60 miles freeway with the power tank, but ~100 miles city/backroads.

[AlanDog]

I can't believe how many motorcyclists stop to check out my bike and most say they like the sound of an engine so much they would never consider an electric bike. I was sure some people felt that way, but most??? "I ride for the experience!" Well so do I... the experience of RIDING, not of listening to the engine...

I did a suspension set-up at Catalyst Reaction and they were cool, but another shop that changed my tires were sort of making fun of it, "hey, you can add a sidecar of batteries if you ever wanted to go for a real ride!" C.R. really tightened up the rear suspension and with wider Pilot Road 3/4's it leans in much better and feels much more stable in corners. I didn't think I was riding it that hard but wore the front tire to the edges on sunday out to Pescadero, up Alpine and down Page Mill Road.

I did have two pedestrians walk out into the road in front of me this morning, despite my neon green jacket and yellow bike. I pulled the brakes before they even noticed me... I guess I need a second button next to the horn that will make an engine rev sound... with a Harley/Sportsbike switch. Yet another Kickstarter campaign that I will never get around to doing...

The bike does make an annoying whirl sound from the belt, but I'm giving local bicyclists yet another hazard they have to worry about: quiet motorcycles... just when they thought they were safe...

[KawiKid860]

The sound of an engine, accompanied with it's characteristics, is an integral part of the riding experience for me. That being said, the quietness and "lack of characteristic" are the characteristics of an electric bike and I'd certainly enjoy the opportunity to ride one and have one in the stable if I found it to be an enjoyable experience. Most people saying that are probably just echoing something they heard before that made sense to them without really thinking about it much, possibly combined with a humans natural resistance to new and different things.

[AlanDog]

Another thing about riding this bike I haven't heard elsewhere: I pin the throttle taking off of every stop light and it doesn't feel like I'm stressing the bike at all, it's so quiet. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis with the 250 or cx500, as it feels like I'm abusing the bike a little. Maybe I am abusing the electric motor.... hmmm.... with city traffic noise around the belt whirl taking off is inaudible, so the bike seems completely silent. Above 25 mph the wind noise overtakes the whirl so I don't hear it riding, although not sure how it sounds as a bystander. I still wear earplugs usually, as the wind noise is still the same.

[NevadaWolf]

Set a camera out on your sidewalk and drive by?

The lack of noise is one of the things I like about electric vehicles.

Maybe it's a good thing these aren't around here yet. I'd be way too tempted to buy one for short putters around the region.

[AlanDog]

That's a great idea. Harley riders and supersports are constantly buzzing by on weekends, so I could even record the relative difference. It's a slight curve but that doesn't stop people from hitting 50mph in front of my driveway...

[agentbad]

Originally Posted by fishdip

The 919 is one ugly looking bike to me.

I like the look of the 599 though.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by fishdip

The 919 is one ugly looking bike to me.

How can you say the 919 is ugly! LMAO Maybe Ugly Fast...

[allanoue]

[algs26]

I was skimming through some GBM pics. Did you track your zero?

[AlanDog]

Originally Posted by algs26

I was skimming through some GBM pics. Did you track your zero?

Yeah! It was awesome. The bike did great. I posted a thread here

I may not get out again until sept/oct but let me know if you have any days planned, we should try to meet up.

[allanoue]

Have you thought about getting a gas generator for track days?

[AlanDog]

Yeah, you do see people with the small generators for their tire-warmers... what I really need is a canopy because all the spots near the RV hookups are in the sun... I ended up parking my car under one of the roof structures for shade, but had to park the bike 300 feet away in the sun to charge.

haha, it would be quite a contradiction. Here is my super-eco friendly electric bike--oh wait, let me charge that up with my gas generator...

[allanoue]

Nothing eco about track days
IJS

[AlanDog]

So true. I trailered two bikes up ~150 miles each way... maybe if I ride up there only charging on solar panels that I carry. And then I'll have to make sure the electricity I use from an outlet is certified green, all-natural, living-wage... reminds me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAlWrT5P2VI

[xXecuterXx2]

Nice choice man!!! that zero looks areeeallll clean!!

[choneofakind]

Also nothing super eco friendly about a bunch of batteries... IJS.

'lectrics are badass, but not sold entirely on the carbon footprint thing.

[AlanDog]

Well, a bunch of batteries that last 200,000+ miles. That's a lot of gasoline that wasn't burnt, so how do you figure? I'm not really into the hard numbers so if you know more than me, I'd like to hear more and read your references.

Granted electrical energy has to come from somewhere, but here in N. Calif. the energy that doesn't come from hydro or wind is from natural gas powerplants, and since I charge during off-peak hours, it doesn't compete with many other uses... so I'd like to see your calculations.

[ForceofWill]

Think he's talking about the plants that make the batteries and what goes into it, not the power consumption afterwards.

I wish the Zero's were less expensive, even if they got a tax break. I have a Fusion Energi for the wife and got like 9g's off it cause of the tax break. FYI, I own that car for purely selfish reasons lol, truck gets 10mpg.

[AlanDog]

Right.

On one side of the equation is the energy/resources/carbon production to build the battery, and the question is, does that negate the 200k miles of fossil fuel burning. At 60mpg that's 3,333 gallons... honestly not sure...

[choneofakind]

^^ werd. It's the not sure thing that is what gets me. Have any other Zero's gotten 200,000 miles or is that just a claimed number? Even then, is it an anomaly or is it the norm? Think about the production process of the battery as well as what process is needed for it after useful lifespan. It has to go somewhere.

I guess I'm not sold on that aspect alone. I'm down completely for saving money on gas, but I think the lifespan carbon footprint (total guesstimation here, I admit I have no numbers to back me) is no better than that of a traditional gasoline engine or if it is, it takes a long time and a lot of miles to be worthwhile.

The reason I want to ride an electric is for torque immediately at 0-speed. I want one for torque and smoothness. A motorcycle to me is a toy anyway, totally unnecessary and just for kicks.

[AlanDog]

Well, the official battery lifetime estimate is 339,000 but I mentally de-rate that to 200k. There is a guy who has put 75,000 miles on his Zero battery pack and says there has been no degradation in charge capacity or performance: http://electricmotorcycleforum.com/b...29407#msg29407

The electric bike forum has a link to a youtube video where a guy explains the stress testing they use to estimate useful lifetime, and it seems they know enough to at least give a rough estimate, although you can't really mimic the wear of time, only usage. The lithium batteries are not easily recycleable because the technology is changing and there are so many sub-types of lithium battery construction.

You definitely need a Zero SR (67 HP?) to get any serious off-the-line torque. Owners complain and I agree--the Zero S is great between 40-80 mph, it really feels like it has more than the rated HP (54) at those speeds, but off the line, it feels surprisingly slow. Remember, the zero has no gears, and maybe it does have full torque at 0 rpm but that somehow translates to sluggish take-off. Maybe some of it is modulated by the controller feeding the motor, not sure... I did test ride the SR and it is much better--you'd have to be pretty greedy to want more than that. But I pin it basically off every stop light, and it certainly has enough power.

[choneofakind]

IIRC, Terry's is highly modded for distance capacity. Zero shares his updates all the time, cool bike!

Also IIRC, he was with Vic (greenaero) when they came to Ohio for a Vetter challenge, pre electric bike, and I met him. Nice group of motorcyclists. Very neat to talk to and pick brains.

[algs26]

Pretty cool. I should have test ridden the zero when I had the chance. Was so hot that day.

Guy was warning the rider that once the bike was "hot" it was easy to accidentally launch the bike since you can't tell it's on by the (lack of) sound.