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Old July 7th, 2012, 06:00 AM   #1
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How to shim the needles without removing the carburetors?

Does the diaphragms need to be disturbed or pulled out?

If so, what to do to avoid damaging them?

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Old July 7th, 2012, 09:50 AM   #2
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Get one of these and your worries will be over



No touch of the diaphragms and if the magnet is strong enough, it will hold the washers in place during install of the needle. Otherwise a gentle touch and having a soft rag to lay them on will do you right.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 10:12 AM   #3
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Take the carbs off and cut the battery box off the aribox. Replace every screw on the carb bowls and caps with M4xwhatever (I don't remember what length, check the link in my sig to see what length...) It's a lot of work for the one time that you do it, but it makes taking the carbs out every time afterwards much easier.

Just do it. Trust me.

Then cut open your intake lid and rejet as needed. free small performance boost.

as for not damaging the diaphragms, I just hold it in with a finger and flip the carbs upside down (not an option if you don't remove the carbs) to get the needles out. When there's washers on your needles, you can leave the carbs on the bike and just use a magnet to get the washers and needles out of the diaphragm out without even touching them.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 04:21 PM   #4
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Get one of these and your worries will be over

No touch of the diaphragms and if the magnet is strong enough, it will hold the washers in place during install of the needle. Otherwise a gentle touch and having a soft rag to lay them on will do you right.
Where can I find that magnet?

Would you mind elaborating a little more?
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Old July 7th, 2012, 04:24 PM   #5
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..........Replace every screw on the carb bowls and caps with M4xwhatever (I don't remember what length, check the link in my sig to see what length...) It's a lot of work for the one time that you do it, but it makes taking the carbs out every time afterwards much easier.

Just do it. Trust me.
I trust you, but.............why replacing all the screws?
Any change in type of screw or just replacing in kind?
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Old July 7th, 2012, 09:06 PM   #6
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Where can I find that magnet?

Would you mind elaborating a little more?
You should be able to find a magnet on a flex shaft at about any auto parts shop, wal-mart or any other place that sells cheap hand tools. They are pretty common actually.

As for how to use it for carb needles. You ever played operation as a kid? Pull out the item without hitting the sides, ya know? Slide magnet through large opening in diaphragm to extract needle without any hitting the diaphragm. Although, they are not as fragile as you might think unless they are really old or haven't been in use for a long time.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 09:17 PM   #7
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I trust you, but.............why replacing all the screws?
Any change in type of screw or just replacing in kind?
Replacing the phillips screws for hex screws or some other type is a major plus when they haven't been touched for years. The stock phillips screws are soft, strip faster than magic mike and rust tighter than the girdle of a baptist minister's wife at an all-you-can-eat pancake breakfast.

It's like they say... an once of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 10:21 PM   #8
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Great !!

Thanks, Chris and Chris
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Old July 8th, 2012, 12:43 PM   #9
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yeah I had a couple of those suckers strip on a friend's bike, and some of mine were getting bad, so I replaced all of them and the screw holding the throttle bracket. I haven't had any issues since.
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Old August 9th, 2013, 10:03 PM   #10
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Hey guys im adding a slip on and planning on adding one washer on the needles, my only ? Is how do u get the caps off if there's a spring in the needle and looks like the frame will get in the way..
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Old August 10th, 2013, 04:48 AM   #11
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Small screw driver. I used one that was from a bicycle tool kit and was only about 2" long.

Now, I have hex screws in there, and a hex key fits just fine.



The spring causes no issues.
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Old August 10th, 2013, 02:04 PM   #12
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Ok I see how I can get to it now, how many washers do u recommend the bike is stock but im adding a two bothers slip on, is two over doin it??


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Old August 10th, 2013, 03:09 PM   #13
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Try 1. test ride. Try 2. Test ride.

Stick with whichever works right.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 05:04 AM   #14
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I never had a problem with the carb screws stripping, but if you put hex bolts in there, you have a greater chance of stripping the threads. Just use the right screwdriver.

As far as replacing the needles, it is possible to change the needles without removing the carb from the bike, but I don't think its less work or less time than removing the whole carb and working on it on the bench. I'd say the odds of damaging a diaphragm are pretty good when you are trying to work in a tight space like that. With the battery box mod you can have the carb out pretty quick.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 05:37 AM   #15
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I never had a problem with the carb screws stripping, but if you put hex bolts in there, you have a greater chance of stripping the threads. Just use the right screwdriver.

As far as replacing the needles, it is possible to change the needles without removing the carb from the bike, but I don't think its less work or less time than removing the whole carb and working on it on the bench. I'd say the odds of damaging a diaphragm are pretty good when you are trying to work in a tight space like that. With the battery box mod you can have the carb out pretty quick.
Nooooo. Talking out of your butt here. I'm speaking out of experience.

Hex head screws don't increase your chance of stripping anything unless you go hulk on the Allen wrench like an idiot. Those stock screws strip easy.

It IS faster if you know what you're doing to get the caps off and shim the needles than to take the carbs out. That's true for air box, modded air box, AND pod filters (ive run all three). However, the first time doing it will be faster to just remove the carbs. I can get my needles height changed without removing the carbs in 15 minutes from start to finish. I just did it 3 days ago. I've also done it 12-15 times between jetting for 4 different setups. Never any diaphragm issues
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Old August 11th, 2013, 06:04 AM   #16
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Nooooo. Talking out of your butt here. I'm speaking out of experience.

Hex head screws don't increase your chance of stripping anything unless you go hulk on the Allen wrench like an idiot. Those stock screws strip easy.

It IS faster if you know what you're doing to get the caps off and shim the needles than to take the carbs out. That's true for air box, modded air box, AND pod filters (ive run all three). However, the first time doing it will be faster to just remove the carbs. I can get my needles height changed without removing the carbs in 15 minutes from start to finish. I just did it 3 days ago. I've also done it 12-15 times between jetting for 4 different setups. Never any diaphragm issues
Don't sweat it. You can buy a new rebuildable carb on ebay for about $100.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 06:12 AM   #17
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I'm not sweating, I have hex screws!

Last time I checked, my bike run better than both of yours anyway
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Old August 11th, 2013, 07:20 AM   #18
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you mean allen head bolts right? you wouldn't need them if you took the carb out and worked on it on the bench. your way is faster, but not necessarily better.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 08:09 AM   #19
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Yeah Allen head screws. The kind that you use a hex key to turn. They're much easier to use without worry of stripping. And they don't strip the threads in the carbs either... You should never be putting that much torque on anything in the carbs.

There's no better or worse for how you actually take the needles out. Both work just fine. My point in posting was that if you've not done both ways, you can't say that one is harder because you don't know. Yes, even if you work on the carbs on a table, you can still strip the stock screws easily. They're very soft and they're jis instead of Phillips. Between 3 sets of carbs from 3 separate bikes. A handful of screws have stripped or disformed just from loosening them. None of my Allen screws have given me any issues through my jetting changes using a bench and/or doing it on the bike. This includes the caps, bowls, and throttle bracket.

Hex head screws are a much better option for someone who plans to be in the carbs and doesn't want to worry about stripping anything. Plus it's about $10 to replace them.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 08:17 AM   #20
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And for anyone wondering, they're M4x16 hex head screws to replace the screws on the caps and bowls. The screw that holds on the throttle bracket is an M6x8 (double check the parts diagrams on this one though. It's been a while) and don't forget the locking washer!
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Old August 11th, 2013, 09:09 AM   #21
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You could just add a pod filter and rejet while you got the carbs out. Getting the carbs out after that is easy.
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Old August 11th, 2013, 07:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Try 1. test ride. Try 2. Test ride.

Stick with whichever works right.
would u recommend syncing the carb after the slip on and washers??, i synced them 400 miles ago??
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Old August 11th, 2013, 08:05 PM   #23
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the screws really do strip very easy, i took a dremal tool to all of mine and turned them into flat heads. >=D
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Old August 12th, 2013, 05:13 AM   #24
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would u recommend syncing the carb after the slip on and washers??, i synced them 400 miles ago??
It wouldn't hurt to check the sync. As long as you didn't touch the valves its probably OK. The sync is an air adjustment and the washers affect fuel. Not only that, but if you put the same number of washers on both sides then they are equal anyway. I'm not 100% sure about the slip on, but that is on the exhaust side of the valves so it shouldn't make a difference with carb sync. But checking it only takes a minute in case the adjuster screw got bumped or is otherwise out of adjustment.

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the screws really do strip very easy, i took a dremal tool to all of mine and turned them into flat heads. >=D
I'm not sure what you guys are doing with the screws. I've removed and replaced them numerous times and never had a single one strip. I'm using standard phillips screwdrivers, usually #2, and never had an issue on either bike.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 05:23 AM   #25
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It wouldn't hurt to check the sync. As long as you didn't touch the valves its probably OK. The sync is an air adjustment and the washers affect fuel. Not only that, but if you put the same number of washers on both sides then they are equal anyway. I'm not 100% sure about the slip on, but that is on the exhaust side of the valves so it shouldn't make a difference with carb sync. But checking it only takes a minute in case the adjuster screw got bumped or is otherwise out of adjustment.



I'm not sure what you guys are doing with the screws. I've removed and replaced them numerous times and never had a single one strip. I'm using standard phillips screwdrivers, usually #2, and never had an issue on either bike.
the rest of the world has problems with em, maybe you have the best carb in the world.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 05:33 AM   #26
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the rest of the world has problems with em, maybe you have the best carb in the world.
On two different bikes? Maybe they used cheaper metal on the older ones? Mine are 2006 and 2007. I've completely disassembled and reassembled both carbs for cleaning several times and never had a single bolt strip.

If you guys are trying to get those diaphragm covers off with the carb still on the bike, you might be hitting the screws at the wrong angle.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 06:08 AM   #27
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On two different bikes? Maybe they used cheaper metal on the older ones? Mine are 2006 and 2007. I've completely disassembled and reassembled both carbs for cleaning several times and never had a single bolt strip.

If you guys are trying to get those diaphragm covers off with the carb still on the bike, you might be hitting the screws at the wrong angle.
na i have rebuilt a total of about 13 carbs all on pregen 250s and they allways want to strip because of the JIS is just different enough from our screwdrivers to give a tiny bit of play. also with the screws being brass that never helps.

dont get me wrong, i have rebuilt carbs and not stripped the screws, but out of every screw ive ever turned in my life "hundreds of thousands" the 250 carb screws are by far the easiest to strip.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 11:30 AM   #28
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I think a certain tadpole has brought me bad luck. I got half way down the road this morning and my main jets clogged. I had to ride back home on the pilot jets. Top speed 45 mph at around 5500 RPM. Sound familiar?

Looks like I'll be rebuilding again. I just rebuilt these things about a month or two ago and here they are plugged up again. And that's with an inline filter. I'm thinking its got to be the alcohol in the gas chipping little pieces off the fuel hose that get sucked into the carbs. Anything in the tank would get stopped by the filter.

I'll take a closer look at the phillips heads this time. I don't think mine are brass.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 05:06 PM   #29
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sup guy i just "tried" to do the needle shimming and i used to, and it was fairly ez to do until i started and was about to go for a test drive, at first i idled and then i hit the throttle it shuts off take it back apart just to check a few things and same thing but now i have it wont rev even at WOT and when im not on the throttle it shuts of.. what can this be im using two washers and a lite smoke cames out the exhaust..

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Old August 12th, 2013, 05:07 PM   #30
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didnt even leave the driveway btw smh..
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Old August 12th, 2013, 05:17 PM   #31
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Two may be too many. What did it run like without any washers?
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Old August 12th, 2013, 06:08 PM   #32
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Two may be too many. What did it run like without any washers?
it run perfectly fine..
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Old August 12th, 2013, 06:49 PM   #33
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sup guy i just "tried" to do the needle shimming and i used to, and it was fairly ez to do until i started and was about to go for a test drive, at first i idled and then i hit the throttle it shuts off take it back apart just to check a few things and same thing but now i have it wont rev even at WOT and when im not on the throttle it shuts of.. what can this be im using two washers and a lite smoke cames out the exhaust..

shawn
I'd remove the washer until you have it running properly again. They may be the wrong size or sitting wrong, so just remove them. They could be causing the needles to hang-up and allow way too much fuel in - was the smoke black?

Something isn't installed correctly relating to the slides, needles, or diaphragms.
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Old August 12th, 2013, 08:20 PM   #34
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I'd remove the washer until you have it running properly again. They may be the wrong size or sitting wrong, so just remove them. They could be causing the needles to hang-up and allow way too much fuel in - was the smoke black?

Something isn't installed correctly relating to the slides, needles, or diaphragms.
It was whiteish smoke, is thinking that I might of put it back together wrong, if remember how i put it back together in the order it was 1:needle, 2: then white plastic thing then 3:spring..
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Old August 13th, 2013, 03:19 AM   #35
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White/gray smoke: Coolant leak or condensation into the intake. If it goes away after the engine is warm, its more likely condensation, but it could be a very slow coolant leak.

Blue smoke: Oil being burned by worn out engine.

Black smoke: Too rich of a mixture (too many washers).
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Old August 13th, 2013, 05:29 AM   #36
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It was whiteish smoke, is thinking that I might of put it back together wrong, if remember how i put it back together in the order it was 1:needle, 2: then white plastic thing then 3:spring..
That's the correct order. It's probably just out of tune. I'd run the bike with stock settings to see where the performance changed with your new... slip on exhaust was it?
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Old August 13th, 2013, 09:57 AM   #37
focus101
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Originally Posted by FvnnyL3tt3r1ng View Post
That's the correct order. It's probably just out of tune. I'd run the bike with stock settings to see where the performance changed with your new... slip on exhaust was it?
no my slip ons just came in the mail today i figure that i do the washers first before i install them, i didnt start with just one washer i went straight with two, it smells likes too rich but it just cuts off then i hit the throttle (sorry for the repeat), i thinks the diaphragm isnt opening properly its not damaged i did remove them to install the washers i think i just might of install them wrong.. ugh!! carbs!!! lol

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Old August 13th, 2013, 11:16 AM   #38
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I think a certain tadpole has brought me bad luck. I got half way down the road this morning and my main jets clogged. I had to ride back home on the pilot jets. Top speed 45 mph at around 5500 RPM. Sound familiar?

Looks like I'll be rebuilding again. I just rebuilt these things about a month or two ago and here they are plugged up again. And that's with an inline filter. I'm thinking its got to be the alcohol in the gas chipping little pieces off the fuel hose that get sucked into the carbs. Anything in the tank would get stopped by the filter.
Again??? Geez dude. I must be bad luck...

Is an entire rebuild necessary? Just soak em, and blow the gunk out of the passages and jets with compressed air. You shouldn't need to replace seals or floats or anything to do a full rebuild.


Mine still runs great!
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Old August 13th, 2013, 01:17 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by choneofakind View Post
Again??? Geez dude. I must be bad luck...

Is an entire rebuild necessary? Just soak em, and blow the gunk out of the passages and jets with compressed air. You shouldn't need to replace seals or floats or anything to do a full rebuild.


Mine still runs great!
Yeah, its like we were talking about allen hex nuts for the carb and then the same morning something gets sucked into the main jet. It happened when I went for a hard acceleration to pull in front of traffic. I get up to about 50 mph and then suddenly the jet plugged and I'm running on one cylinder. Still idles just fine. Nothing wrong with the pilot jets.

I'm replacing the fuel hose with 30R9 rated hose which is E85 approved so it should work with E10. I'm still working on the rest of the stuff I need. I plan on soaking it after I do a thorough cleaning and blowout.
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Old August 14th, 2013, 02:08 PM   #40
focus101
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so guy i took the washers out found out that there were in the way of that plastic keeper thing, so now the bike is running but it cuts off and rev up on its own, any idea what that might be??
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