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Old September 5th, 2017, 03:21 PM   #41
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I'm a bit reluctant to urge you along (via keyboard tuning) but submit you could both improve MPG while maintaining performance.

Not to "rub it in"...but my 900SS Ducati yields 50MPG. I know your 250 can do way better than 38.

Also, in view of your ignition coil mods...reluctant to urge you doing too many changes at a given time...

Can you confirm you've got adequate valve clearances? Checked within service manual recommended mileage interval? A very important prerequisite.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 10:40 PM   #42
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this was a ebay bike had only 4400 miles. it has 5100 on it now. when i was pulling carbs, i noticed the carb screws top/bottom and rack screws were tampered with to the point of being stripped out. (i replaced with socket head)all i figure is the bike sat for along time and someone went into carbs. i replace the 98's with 100's. I was under the assumption while reading about the ninja that it was set up incredibly lean for emissions. maybe i was wrong. i'll have to think out my next move.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 12:05 AM   #43
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That's true, they are lean at idle and up to about 33% throttle below 6000 RPMs. That's barely getting into main jet territory. But at 100% WOT above 8000 RPMs or so, mixtures are extremely rich.

I need to connect my wideband to get more accurate data. Perhaps hook up TPS to datalogue throttle.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 12:27 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
That's true, they are lean at idle and up to about 33% throttle below 6000 RPMs. That's barely getting into main jet territory. But at 100% WOT above 8000 RPMs or so, mixtures are extremely rich.

I need to connect my wideband to get more accurate data. Perhaps hook up TPS to datalogue throttle.
I bought my 07' Ninja in March. When I pulled the plugs I could tell the engine was running lean. It was all stock. I installed Yoshimura mufflers and went from 105 to 110 mains. She runs great and no shims. Works for me.

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Old September 6th, 2017, 04:32 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by JacRyann View Post
That's true, they are lean at idle and up to about 33% throttle below 6000 RPMs. That's barely getting into main jet territory. But at 100% WOT above 8000 RPMs or so, mixtures are extremely rich.

I need to connect my wideband to get more accurate data. Perhaps hook up TPS to datalogue throttle.
plugs don't lie.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 05:25 AM   #46
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^ neither does your acknowledged excessive fuel consumption.

I see you've avoided answering the valve clearance question......?

Perhaps other nefarious forces influencing?

"i'll have to think out my next move."

If I may suggest....although I'm telling you something you don't want to hear...a valve clearance check should top your options. ...regardless of mileage, lineage of bike, carbs, plugs....check the valve clearances before proceeding any further.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 05:52 AM   #47
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unfortunately your right.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 06:14 AM   #48
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valves an integral part of tuning procedure....comes with the territory of ownership....

You could be worse off...accessing on my Honda VFR800 V4 (gear driven cams) is a long, complex ordeal.
I usually dedicate 2 separate, long sessions to accomplish.

Then o'course, you got to be a Doctor of Desmodromics to do my Ducatis, a completely different ball game there.

They've just got to be checked/adjusted....eliminated as a factor... endlessly chasing ghosts not a fun alternative either.

It'll ultimately pay off in satisfaction, peace of mind, performance.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 06:14 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
my plugs don't look rich.
Read this article - https://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%...k%20Plugs.html

"Jetting = the air/fuel mixture ratio shows up on the base ring (the last thread ring, it has the strap welded to it). You want a full turn of light soot color on the base ring!!! If you want to tune for max. power, then you want 3/4 to 7/8ths of a full turn of light soot color to show up on the base ring, but this is on ragged-edge of being too lean, but will make the most HP on most engines. To be safe, leave it at a full turn of light soot color. If the base ring has a full turn of color, but there are "spots" of heavy build-up of "dry soot" on top of color, then jetting is too rich .

NOTE> If the base ring has a full turn of color with some spots of heavy dry soot, then jetting is too rich, REGARDLESS, if the porcelain is "BONE-WHITE", jetting is still TOO RICH !!! NOTE> Do not look at the porcelain to read jetting !!!"

I'd say they are rich overall. The plug is showing an average of all the jetting, not just the main jet. I don't see any reason you should need a richer main jet than the original, which, as previously noted, is generally considered too rich in the first place.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 06:21 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkv45 View Post
Read this article - https://www.enginebasics.com/Engine%...k%20Plugs.html

"Jetting = the air/fuel mixture ratio shows up on the base ring (the last thread ring, it has the strap welded to it). You want a full turn of light soot color on the base ring!!! If you want to tune for max. power, then you want 3/4 to 7/8ths of a full turn of light soot color to show up on the base ring, but this is on ragged-edge of being too lean, but will make the most HP on most engines. To be safe, leave it at a full turn of light soot color. If the base ring has a full turn of color, but there are "spots" of heavy build-up of "dry soot" on top of color, then jetting is too rich .

NOTE> If the base ring has a full turn of color with some spots of heavy dry soot, then jetting is too rich, REGARDLESS, if the porcelain is "BONE-WHITE", jetting is still TOO RICH !!! NOTE> Do not look at the porcelain to read jetting !!!"

I'd say they are rich overall. The plug is showing an average of all the jetting, not just the main jet. I don't see any reason you should need a richer main jet than the original, which, as previously noted, is generally considered too rich in the first place.
good info, thanx for sharing.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 03:32 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
plugs don't lie.
Problem is it's difficult to determine:

- how much time was spent at each throttle-opening (10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, etc.)
- how much time was spent at each RPM-range (1000-rpms, 2000-rpms, 3000-rpms, etc.)
- how much time was spent at each 3D point on fueling map (throttle X RPM)

You've got an accumulated and weighted average that's speaking in generalized terms. You're looking at changing main-jets, but it's very likely those plugs are only reflecting 10% of main-jet usage. While majority of operating-time was using idle & low-speed circuits.

Here's an example of lean low-end and rich top-end:



Note the mid-range rich dip that robs some torque. Leaning out the mixture across-the-board regains some of that mid-range and boosts top-end power. But... it also leaned out already lean low-end even more. To flatten out this fuel-mixture curve we'd need to adjust pilot-screws to richen low-end and perhaps CNC custom needle to remove mid-range dip. Then adjust top-end with main-jets.

Which is where EFI comes in as you can tune extremely precisely in 500rpm increments or less. And very quickly with just a couple mouse-clicks. This tune was done in less than 30-minutes. NA engines make max-power around 13.0-13.5:1 AFR.



Seeing that both carbed and EFI versions have lean low-end with rich top-end would seem to indicate this was done intentionally. Lean low-end most likely for emissions testing and EPA MPG test-cycle. Top-end richness for safety against detonation and melted pistons; albeit sacrificing power as well.

Last futzed with by DannoXYZ; September 6th, 2017 at 09:48 PM.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 03:48 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
yet stock jetted/exhaust 250's are reported to routinely yield + 50 MPG consumption and maverick reported 40 earlier in the thread.

What MPG your street bike getting, JacRyan? You've accurately set the pilot screws?

I realize your racebike MPG is impertinent, but no doubt you've got Dynojet needles in there too?
On the street bike, I get about 225-240 miles per tank, not sure what that is in MPG. Race bike gets 5x 20-minutes sessions per tank... about 130-miles.

Pilot-screws are 2.75-turns out on both bikes where they're most responsive. More or less and they tend to be more rubbery.

Earlier plug-comparison was back-to-back sessions at Thunderhill several months ago. Both bikes went 20-minutes on East course with ~90% of that time at WOT between 9000-13000rpms. Not sure I can get more identical operating conditions than that.

Stock bike spent all its time in the super-rich top-end zone (1st dyno-chart above). Without any flow-increasing mods, it was even richer than the 12.0:1 AFR recorded on that chart, probably in the 10.0-11.0:1 range. Plugs would seem to show that, if not even richer.

I looked in Dyno-jet kit box and Stg-2 needles with 3-grooves for circlips are still in there. So I've got stock needles in race-bike with no washers.

Gonna hook up the wideband and see how my AFR really compares to those charts above.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 04:30 PM   #53
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Wear gloves and definitely be careful dispensing stuff. One of active ingredients has 50% kill-rate.
The MSDS says the worst ingredient has an oral LDlo (lowest concentration reported to be lethal in humans or animals) of 5 ml/kg. So an 80 kg person would have to drink 400 ml of the stuff for it to be fatal. That's more than 13 ounces.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 09:37 PM   #54
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Quote:
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On the street bike, I get about 225-240 miles per tank, not sure what that is in MPG. Race bike gets 5x 20-minutes sessions per tank... about 130-miles.

Pilot-screws are 2.75-turns out on both bikes where they're most responsive. More or less and they tend to be more rubbery.

Earlier plug-comparison was back-to-back sessions at Thunderhill several months ago. Both bikes went 20-minutes on East course with ~90% of that time at WOT between 9000-13000rpms. Not sure I can get more identical operating conditions than that.

Stock bike spent all its time in the super-rich top-end zone (1st dyno-chart above). Without any flow-increasing mods, it was even richer than the 12.0:1 AFR recorded on that chart, probably in the 10.0-11.0:1 range. Plugs would seem to show that, if not even richer.

I looked in Dyno-jet kit box and Stg-2 needles with 3-grooves for circlips are still in there. So I've got stock needles in race-bike with no washers.

Gonna hook up the wideband and see how my AFR really compares to those charts above.
after running out of gas, i recomputed to 38 mpg. before i think of checking valves i have stock 98's coming. many postings say the ninja was set up super lean,this opens my eyes quite a bit...
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Old September 7th, 2017, 05:27 AM   #55
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Maverick-

So, the big question....how many miles since your last valve check?

don't blow off the valve adjustment nor disregard its effects... common knowledge these 250's critically sensitive to tight clearances

If last known service interval dictates...i'd yet again suggest checking BEFORE commencing with any other changes
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Old September 7th, 2017, 05:49 AM   #56
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after running out of gas, i recomputed to 38 mpg. before i think of checking valves i have stock 98's coming. many postings say the ninja was set up super lean,this opens my eyes quite a bit...
I'm running #110 main jets and no jet needle shims and hit reserve at 235 miles. I think Dukeman is spot on brother.

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Old September 7th, 2017, 06:07 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by maverick9611 View Post
after running out of gas, i recomputed to 38 mpg. before i think of checking valves i have stock 98's coming. many postings say the ninja was set up super lean,this opens my eyes quite a bit...
It is in the low (idle mixture adjustment) and mid-range (needle height), but the top end (Main Jet) is on the rich side with a stock airbox and exhaust.

The normal set-up for a stock engine is 2.5 turns out on the Idle Mixture Screws with the stock Pilot Jet, 1 or 2 washers under the needle, and possibly a 1-step leaner Main Jet.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 07:13 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by ducatiman View Post
Maverick-

So, the big question....how many miles since your last valve check?

don't blow off the valve adjustment nor disregard its effects... common knowledge these 250's critically sensitive to tight clearances

If last known service interval dictates...i'd yet again suggest checking BEFORE commencing with any other changes
bike has 5100 miles on. i bought with 4400 miles on it. at 7500, i'll check the valves. i have no problem doing this as i had a zrx 1200 and did valve checks many times.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 07:44 PM   #59
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The pre-gen and new-gens have completely different jetting specs. So don't get them mixed up. And it's possible to be both too rich AND too lean on SAME bike. It's a matter of where in the operating-zones the mixtures are rich and lean. Thus the adjustments needed will vary as well.

Aside from the valve-clearance check, I'm not sure if main-jet changes would do much for your MPG. You may get better results from adjusting pilot-screws. Those plugs look rich, but not as rich as my street-bike under WOT.
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Old September 7th, 2017, 08:55 PM   #60
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The pre-gen and new-gens have completely different jetting specs. So don't get them mixed up. And it's possible to be both too rich AND too lean on SAME bike. It's a matter of where in the operating-zones the mixtures are rich and lean. Thus the adjustments needed will vary as well.

Aside from the valve-clearance check, I'm not sure if main-jet changes would do much for your MPG. You may get better results from adjusting pilot-screws. Those plugs look rich, but not as rich as my street-bike under WOT.
I run 110 mains and get 235 miles to reserve. You might be right but an increase in mains does result in an increase in fuel throughout most of the operating range. Hence no shims on my carbs?

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