bike randomly pops into neutral while riding

[8gauge]

so i've got a 2010 limited edition. It only happened about 3 or so different times, but while i'm riding, (around 25mph or less) and say i'm in 3rd gear or so and before i switch to 4th the bike pops into neutral.

has anyone else had this happen to them? There's no fluids leaking from my bike, and this has me pretty freaked and potentially dangerous.

if anyone knows the cause and how to fix this, that would be great...

[Nemesis]

Shift harder--meaning, make more of an effort to step on the clutch.

[kkim]

have you changed the exhaust in any way?

[nattygirl]

From his avatar pics, looks like he might have a two brothers on it.

[JMcDonald]

Yeah I'd say try a few weeks of more deliberate shifting and see where that lands you. It will seem slow, but I'd say make sure you are doing it correctly before you try to do it fast, because slow is correct, correct is smooth, and smooth is fast (from the world of firearm's training).

[8gauge]

Originally Posted by kkim

have you changed the exhaust in any way?

just a Jardine RT5 slip on. it's really hard to describe. It's not that i'm shifting wrong or not applying enough clutch to smoothly shift to the next gear. I noticed it doesn't happen in 4th gear or higher.

Even without using the shifter or squeezing in the clutch, I'm riding along and the next thing I know, I'm in neutral and my RPM's start climbing. so yes, i'm shifting properly, and not lazily tapping the shifter a nanometer with my foot.

Any ideas kelly?

[kkim]

sorry, I misread your initial post. forget the exhaust question.

as for popping into neutral, is this happening when your foot is not even touching the shift lever or are you getting ready to shift into the next gear with your foot touching the lever when this happens?

is your oil level correct in the sight glass?

[8gauge]

Originally Posted by kkim

sorry, I misread your initial post. forget the exhaust question.

as for popping into neutral, is this happening when your foot is not even touching the shift lever or are you getting ready to shift into the next gear with your foot touching the lever when this happens?

is your oil level correct in the sight glass?

this happens when i'm not even touching the shift lever. even if my foot was touching it, (about to shift up) i don't see how it would shoot all the way back down to neutral. My bike has had a slooow leak. it's leaking out of the drain plug, just a drip here and there but that's what i get for being lazy and having it serviced. There's about 75% oil in the sight glass, but they guy who did it half-ass and i'm getting a new gasket and having the oil topped off in the morning, but this happened even before the oil change.

[kkim]

I'm assuming the bike is still under warranty? if so, bring it to the attention of the dealer and have them annotate it on a work order. they may not be able to fix it right away, but if this proves to be an ongoing problem, at least it will be in their system or you will have written proof that this problem occurred before the warranty expired.

[8gauge]

sounds like it's the only thing i can do about it so far. thanks!

[JMcDonald]

BTW, the transmission is not likely actually going into "Neutral," but basically the transmission ends up resting between the original pair of gears. This is called a "False Neutral."


For now, try to consciously shift deliberately, and perhaps change your oil. If it ran low on oil and this problem has persisted, it is possible the dog teeth are worn enough to allow the gears to fall out of place even under load. And that is a whole 'nother level. Like Kkim said, I'd just take it to the dealer and have them check it out. It could be nothing more than the other guy putting in the cheapest oil he could find, perhaps preventing the dogs (gears) from syncing together all the way?

Good luck, man. I know I'd be frustrated if this was happening to me on a new bike, but I hope it gets worked out.

[GiGs]

If it ran low on oil and this problem has persisted, it is possible the dog teeth are worn enough to allow the gears to fall out of place even under load.

Just out of curiosity, which teeth on what and appropriately how much to fix ? (Don't mean to hi-jack your thread 8gauge)

I have problems every now and then only on the downshift where I can shift into nothing....i'll think I have shifted down and i'll let the clutch out and I just coast (of course I pull the clutch back in quickly and go down again on the shifter which works but makes a very big clunk). Only once when it was a very hot day and the bike was hot did the clutch feel like it slipped if that makes any difference. Also not feeling the 'click' when changing up gears sometimes until 4th (someone said something about a spring ???) I know it has changed gear but there isn't always a 'click'...

My oil is full (Motul) and everything else is perfect (17,200 KM's) ...this only happens when down shifting - hot, cold, wet, dry whatever makes no difference. Been serviced previously by the book/stealership until I got it and i've serviced it myself with only the best of everything. EDIT: oh and I have mods, exhaust, pod, etc...everything.

I just put it down to crappy gearbox but i'm interested to know the problem/cause/solution and i've seen many different 'oh it's xxxx' posts, this is the only bug I have (to sort out if possible).

cheers

[Nemesis]

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

it is possible the dog teeth are worn enough to allow the gears to fall out of place even under load. And that is a whole 'nother level.

This usually happens when you mount cheap aftermarket rearsets that include their own LEVER-ASSY-CHANGE (P/N 13242-0044). Reason being it doesn't fit as tight like the OEM ones. Richard (RaceBikeRentals) and I noticed this on my bike when we were safety wiring my bike. So, I swapped back to my OEM ones. If the tip end of the LEVER-COMP-CHANGE SHAFT rod is grounded down...well, I hear it's a PITA ($$$ & time) to replace it. So be careful to ALL.

Originally Posted by JMcDonald

Like Kkim said, I'd just take it to the dealer and have them check it out. It could be nothing more than the other guy putting in the cheapest oil he could find, perhaps preventing the dogs (gears) from syncing together all the way?

Kawasaki is fully aware of this issue. In fact, they were aware of it since the introduction of the 250. It's an entry level bike so obviously the components and such aren't going to be as highly fabricated. But with the growing popularity of the Ninja250R maybe they will consider this but again they are fully aware of the issue. As a matter of fact, I was asked if I experienced this during my races and I said rarely and that it wasn't a huge deal--you just have to make more of a conscious effort to shift. If you can reproduce the "false neutral" time and time again I hear they may just replace your engine with a new one.

[HKr1]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

If you can reproduce the "false neutral" time and time again I hear they may just replace your engine with a new one.

Maybe if your dam lucky. I remember that dude here in FWB, his bike was bran spanking new. Kawi made the dealer pull the motor and split the case

[Racer x]

The popping into a false neutral happen to me while racing more than I would like to admit. I thought is was me .But after changing the trans for a 2009 trans it has never happen again. Shifting with a more deliberate action did help and made it a non issue really.Taking it to a dealer is hard to duplicate the symptom and they will not look to hard to find it

I know this will not help but I made a video of my trans shifting . While I had it out. I had to reach over and give the out put shaft a flip to get it to shift into second gear from first .There is a positive neutral finder .That puts the trans into neutral instead of second if the bike is sitting still. I think that is where the problem lies .But getting the dealer to fix it will be hard.

Link to original page on YouTube.

[JMcDonald]

Dude, that is an awesome video. Thank you so much for posting it!

Gigs, if you look between the gears, when he shifts, the discs that move have little nubs sticking off them that disappear inside the actual "gears." The little nubs are called the "Dogs" and those are what actually engage and disengage the gears. When they are worn, they get rounded out and have a greater tendency to not stay in, especially if the shift is anything less than perfectly positive. Now, it usually takes a good amount of grinding to get significant enough wear to have it pop out of gear, so you could very well have a less significant problem than worn dog teeth.

Here is another explanation.
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission2.htm

[Cedilla]

Sometimes mine pops out of second if I don't shift good. It usually happens a few seconds after shifting to second under hard acceleration. It always startles me, but then I make sure I shift completely and it does not happen again. Sometimes I find false neutrals between the other gears, but most of the time its just second, back down to neutral. I'm just a lazy shifter.

[Nemesis]

Personally, I think it's the fact that this is an entry level sportsbikes (Q&A won't be the greatest) so I really doubt they're going to put the time & effort into fixing this since 1) there aren't any reports of hazardous incidents & 2) it would cost Kawi a fortune & time if they issued out a recall.

[Alex]

It's a shame this is happening to folks, and it does really appear to be hit or miss from bike to bike. I've never missed a shift on either of our ninjettes, and never found a false neutral. I can't imagine I'm doing anything particularly easier or rougher than anyone else, so it seems that manufacturing tolerances are just wide enough that some may have issues, some may not.

[GiGs]

JMcDonald thanks for the explanation, now I understand

Racer x I watched your video, very interesting and awesome !

Not worth the time,effort or money to fix the "problem" - I will just enjoy it for what it is

cheers guys

[JMcDonald]

I would occasionally get false neutrals and a couple times have the bike pop out of gear when clutchless shifting. However, that was more of a phase of learning street riding that I'm over, and I very rarely have a problem anymore. The only times I have had a problem are when I am in 6th on the highway and am late-braking into an onramp for an aggressive turn. Early on I would occasionally mistime trying to rapidly shift down from 6th to 3rd or 2nd, and would either get false neutrals or, a lot of times, just buck the bike without actually shifting :P . But practice is largely eliminated this problem.

[wvninja]

Mine did it .. while trying to pass a semi on a two lane road .. went to hit 5th and found myself in no gear so i though maybe it was in between (happening so fast and worried about getting around the truck) i pulled in the clutch and shifted up once.. started to release the clutch and the bike made a sound id never forget .. almost like reving the lil ninja to 17k. I'm glad i realized what was going on before i had fully let out on the clutch pulled it in and shifted up a few times.

i also had the same problem you describe when driving slow. Mine happend a lot between second and third gear (even shifting hard to make sure i was in gear) below 25mph driving through the neighborhood. It would seem like id have steady throttle then all of a sudden the bike would start to slow so id give it more gas and realize the green light was on and the bike had found neutral for me.

[Racer x]

First time it happen to me I was at Maxton. I had just put in the 88-94 ignition module that had a 15000 RPM rev limiter. I come out of the hole at about 9000 and toss the clutch keeping it at around 10500 to 11000 Rpm then quick into second .Then BANG !!!! the engine went to the moon . I jammed it down into second and kept going. The little engine is tough I will give it that.

[onizthegnome]

theres been a few times when ive tried to downshift from second to first (when coming to a stop) and instead it would go to neutral while giving me a grinding vibration on my left foot. kicking down a few more times would get it into first but what is up with that?

[Alex]

Going from 2nd to 1st while still moving is always going to be the stiffest and harshest shift. If the bike is moving just about any speed at all, it can take a determined press of the lever to get it into 1st smoothly and swiftly. It gets easier if you wait to do that last downshift until the bike is well under 10 mph and almost at a stop.

[AMMOCAN]

Well, add me to the list of victims of a false neutral. I was riding home today from the University and decided to get some gas for SLIME-R. From the gas station to my house there is a main street that allows 45 MPH, and if you time the lights right you can pretty much get from point A to B without stopping. I left the gas station and turned onto this main street. From there I proceeded to shift up through my gears making sure I stayed within the recommended RPM break-in range. However, as I was shifting up into 5th or 6th gear (can't remember), all I heard was a high rev sound! I looked down and saw that my RPMs were going beyond what they should have been. I then started playing with the clutch and realized I was in neutral!?! WTF!?! I then proceeded to shift back up again and all was good, but it sure did freak me out, lol.

[onizthegnome]

Originally Posted by AMMOCAN

Well, add me to the list of victims of a false neutral. I was riding home today from the University and decided to get some gas for SLIME-R. From the gas station to my house there is a main street that allows 45 MPH, and if you time the lights right you can pretty much get from point A to B without stopping. I left the gas station and turned onto this main street. From there I proceeded to shift up through my gears making sure I stayed within the recommended RPM break-in range. However, as I was shifting up into 5th or 6th gear (can't remember), all I heard was a high rev sound! I looked down and saw that my RPMs were going beyond what they should have been. I then started playing with the clutch and realized I was in neutral!?! WTF!?! I then proceeded to shift back up again and all was good, but it sure did freak me out, lol.

haha thats happened to me before. i realized i didnt kick up hard enough and it went into neutral instead.

[kkim]

wait... you're saying you were shifting from 5-6 and hit neutral and then found you were back in second? that's impossible with the way a bike trans works.

[onizthegnome]

Originally Posted by kkim

wait... you're saying you were shifting from 5-6 and hit neutral and then found you were back in second? that's impossible with the way a bike trans works.

i think it was 1-2-3-4-5-neutral-6

[kkim]

Originally Posted by AMMOCAN

I then started playing with the clutch and realized I was in neutral!?! WTF!?! I then proceeded to shift back up again and all was good, but it sure did freak me out, lol.

Originally Posted by onizthegnome

i think it was 1-2-3-4-5-neutral-6

this is what has me confused.

[onizthegnome]

i dont really know exactly how the gears work but when i was learning to ride, someone told me a half kick up was neutral. is this true or not? and is this possible to do from any gear?

[kkim]

normally only supposed to happen between 1-2, but if you just nudge the lever, I suppose you could end up in no gear between the other gears.

there have been members who have suffered a neutral problem between 5-6.

[wvninja]

kkim count me in as one of those from 5th to 6th to only have a false N while trying to pass a semi on a two lane road.


BTW I did the synthetic oil change.. I didn't have problem till after that so take that as you want.

[AMMOCAN]

Originally Posted by kkim

normally only supposed to happen between 1-2, but if you just nudge the lever, I suppose you could end up in no gear between the other gears.

there have been members who have suffered a neutral problem between 5-6.

Yeah, I was confused and freaked out myself when it happened, but I don't feel too weirded out about it now after hearing of others experiencing the same thing.

Again, I was shifting either from 4th to 5th gear or 5th to 6th gear (as I can't recall exactly) when it dropped into Neutral. Once in neutral I had to shift back up again through the gears to get in the right gear for my speed. So far, this has only happened once, so I am hoping this doesn't become an occurring problem.

[kkim]

how many miles on the bike now and when was the last time the oil was changed?

[AMMOCAN]

It has 130 miles on it right now and it hasn't been touched in any way shape or form mechanically since it was purchased. Again, this only happened once, so I am not exactly sure the cause or reasoning for it.

[kkim]

okay... keep an eye on it. btw, you have read the break in info in the wiki, right?

http://www.ninjette.org/wiki/Break-in

[AMMOCAN]

Originally Posted by kkim

okay... keep an eye on it. btw, you have read the break in info in the wiki, right?

http://www.ninjette.org/wiki/Break-in

Thanx KKim! I will be sure to do just that.

Yes, I have read the 'Break-In' Wiki page with it's many different opinions and methods of going about the proper or non-proper way to break in our Ninja 250s. I can't say that I have chosen a specific one to use, but I am more or less following what is outlined in the manual.

I did read all the supportive arguments and rebuttals on why and why not you should follow the manufacture's method, and to be honest I think it really comes down to a personal choice. In the end, I personally want to be able to truthfully say that I followed the advice given to me by the manufacture if anything was bad to happen to it. This way I can have a peace of mind knowing it wasn't anything that I did or didn't do to cause the problem.

Of course, there isn't any true way of knowing if someone has followed the guidelines set forth by the manufacture to break it in, but I would know and that to me is important enough, as I in no way, shape, or form would want to lie about it.

[ninja250]

Originally Posted by Nemesis

you just have to make more of a conscious effort to shift. If you can reproduce the "false neutral" time and time again I hear they may just replace your engine with a new one.

This.

Helps if your shift lever height is properly adjusted (to your foot position on the bike) as well.

When it's not adjusted right, I false neutral all the time. When adjusted right, I never false neutral.

If your foot has to "Reach" far to shift or you have to move it a lot or strain to move your toes to shift, it's not adjusted right. The shifter should be adjusted to a height where shifting becomes effortless on your toes/feet/ankle. Then you'll never miss the gears.

[ninja250]

Now that I think about it,
I've had cars that will pop out of gear too if you don't get the stick all the way in place. My Honda S2000 used to do it brand new off the lot even with a short throw shifter if you didn't make it all the way into gear.