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Old June 25th, 2012, 01:34 PM   #1
mkulchar
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Exclamation Running Lean or Rich? need help

So i installed a full systm and seem to have some problems with the bike running smooth down low rpms. settings

YEAR:2010

INTAKE MODIFICATIONS:Pipercross foam airfilter, Snorkel Removed,Kleen-air removed

EXHAUST MODIFICATIONS:Full Sportisimoto VRX exhaust

JET KIT OR STOCK: Jetkit

BRAND OF JET KIT? Sportisi /Dynojet sizes

MAIN JET:98dj

NEEDLE AND CLIP POSITION:2nd position from the top

MIXTURE SCREW SETTINGS:2.7ish


Question Probelm is :

1. When starting bike from cold, need choke or barely runs without stallin still warmed with choke for 30secs.
2. After that seems to be a "bog" when giving gas from stop (like a delay for the engine to kick in).
3. If i let the clutch out slowly without giving gas bike stalls tho, should be able to pull little bit and move.. did before the jetting
4. Lastly after riding for 30mins so fully warmed engine, when giving gas the RPMS go up and when release gas the rpms drop but go below the set rpms idle point to sound like goin to stall then goes up slowly to the correct RPMS. witch is set at 1500rpms.

What is the issue.. to lean or rich?

Thanks
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Old June 25th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #2
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pilot system is rich.
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Old June 25th, 2012, 01:50 PM   #3
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Try turning your fuel mixture screws out to a total of 2 turns. Did you change the pilots at all when you installed the jet kit?
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Old June 25th, 2012, 02:14 PM   #4
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no, i left as stock 38s

thanks ill give ita try to see if that fixes it
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Old June 25th, 2012, 05:30 PM   #5
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ok, so i turned it bak to 0 then up to 2 turns. and it runs alot better now. Thanks

For future reference what are common signs of running to rich and lean? how you tell the difference...

thanks again
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Old June 25th, 2012, 05:34 PM   #6
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it depends on the range. if its off idle, its the pilot system. a rich pilot system bogs down (dips below idle) after coming back from a blip. a lean pilot system is slow to come back down to idle, and will hang for a second at say 2 or 3krpm before settling back down to idle.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 04:11 PM   #7
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so i did that like u ask as stated above and it worked. then drove to work today and man did i have problems.

When the problem mainly shows when you are accelerating, the bike seems to be struggleing to keep goin. it like surges power for a sec then a pop/with no power. then back and forth. Usally around the 5-7rpm range. this didnt happen when had the 2.7 turns... Idle is also bounceing around the 1.5 to 1.1 range also when in idle. (so i turned it up to 2.25 turns) to see if that would help...


Tho i didnt think that the mixture screws would affect the mid..
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Old June 26th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #8
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Try putting the snorkel back in for a test run. If the bike runs fine leave it in.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 04:52 PM   #9
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you thinkin then it is running to lean? y it is having those problems? cause the snokel wil richen the bike up..

Qestiong is how am i goin to be able to put the snokel bak in.lol
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Old June 26th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #10
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you thinkin then it is running to lean? y it is having those problems? cause the snokel wil richen the bike up..

Qestiong is how am i goin to be able to put the snokel bak in.lol
You've got a full system with a main jet that's almost equivalent to a stock main. You're moving more air than fuel.

The snorkel will require a little work to get back in, but it can be done. What I did was remove a little bit of the middle (resonator) near the base so the snorkel will collapse a little easier when putting it back in, you can also manipulate it with your fingers better.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 06:50 PM   #11
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Do you think that maby i need to raise my needle up one more. cause its on the 2nd clip from the top.. y it sputtering between 5-7rpm? seems to run ok on the high end.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 07:06 PM   #12
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you decreased the AF ratio through the pilot system. this means there's a bit less going through as your needle opens up the main jet. so if it is now struggling from 5k to 7k, your mid range is too lean. raising the needle will push more fuel into the carbs through 5k to 7k.

however, like dablue1 said, if your main jet is too small, you're still running lean up top and dont have the power you should up top. increasing the main jet will increase the flow through the needle along the entire range of the needle (which includes 5k to 7k)

the fact that it gets better once the main opens up all the way tells you that your needle probably is slightly too low, but whether or not it would be too low after you bump up a main jet is hard to say. whether 'too low' is more or less than one clip size is another question you wont be able to answer without trying. you really should do a WOT plug check to see if you are lean up top, then go from there. if you are lean up top, increase the main jet and it should fix the entire range. if you arent lean up top, raise the needle one clip.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 07:06 PM   #13
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Do you think that maby i need to raise my needle up one more. cause its on the 2nd clip from the top.. y it sputtering between 5-7rpm?
Doesn't the kit recommend the e-clip on the 3rd grove? That may be your problem as well.
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Old June 26th, 2012, 07:15 PM   #14
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ah good info. i can try that sparkplug test. So how would the test work..

Ride it redline for a bit then rip out the plugs to see the color of the plugs??

White-lean
tan-good
black-rich

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Old June 27th, 2012, 05:15 PM   #15
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So i was also told that maby the shuttering of the bike could be that the needles arn't in correctly. When I installed the new needles i placed it on the 2nd grove from the top, like instructed. BUT didn't use any of the little plastic washers that came in the kit. was told not to worry about them cause of e-clip by a buddy.


Now im going to remove the needles from my bike this weekend and then place the washers on it to see if that was the problem.

Question: How do those washers get installed......?

Needle Tip <=========|6|5|4|3|2|1| top of needle

If I install the e-clip on 2nd from the top then the washers go on "1" correct? leaving me with 2 xtra washers (came with 4). What are they for anyway?
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Old June 27th, 2012, 05:36 PM   #16
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The e-clips sandwich the washers, so when you move the bottom e-clip to the third groove, place washers between the e-clips.
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Old June 27th, 2012, 06:54 PM   #17
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OHH!! i never did that and i guess that makes sense considering i have a 4eclips and like 4 washers.

so id be using then 2clips and 1 washer per needle then.
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Old June 30th, 2012, 01:58 PM   #18
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So i reseated my needles and used all the washers and clips like instructed and atm, seems to run ok. Idle is the biggest issue i have. It Cannot run at a solid rpm for a couple secs. It bounces from 1.3 to 1.8 constanly. No matter what i do with the idle screws.

At 2 turns bike idles at 1.5 then drops to 1 then up to 1.5. and bak some times up to 1.7.

At 2.5 turns 1.5 to 1.6 then 1.3 then 1.7 to 1.8 after rev up, drops down slowly as soon hits 3.5

Took pics of the plugs they seem decent color





A video is uploading as i type this. will show once done.

Thanks what you think is the issue.
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Old June 30th, 2012, 02:11 PM   #19
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Old June 30th, 2012, 02:19 PM   #20
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never. only had the bike for just over a year. and no idea how to do it. I just did the neddles solo for the 1st time. lol

Ok, so turned the mixture to 2.25 and it still 1.5 then 1.6 then 1.2 then 1.5. But then blipping throttle is go up then bak to 1.5 in on motion and doesnt slow down like at 2.5 turns.

video is http://youtu.be/E8OpQE1TwiE
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Old June 30th, 2012, 03:11 PM   #21
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....Ok, so turned the mixture to 2.25 and it still 1.5 then 1.6 then 1.2 then 1.5. But then blipping throttle is go up then bak to 1.5 in on motion and doesnt slow down like at 2.5 turns.

video is http://youtu.be/E8OpQE1TwiE
Sounds and looks normal for a carbed bike to me. Get on it and enjoy the ride then set your idle to 1400. keep in mind with changing temps the idle will change too.
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Old July 1st, 2012, 04:13 PM   #22
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so did a long ride of about an hr and bike running hotter then ussal. RPms at netural are all over. and it even went to 2k and sat there for like 3secs then slowly droped to 1.5..

Exhaust pipe is 2 times hotter then avg. there is a lag from starting from 0, like takes 2secs for it to kick in and go at a good pace. When gave it WOT accel was good until i got to 120km and it wont go past that. Just sits there at 10krpms in 5th and 6th is the same...

There some times when giving throttal from 0 there is a "click" sound coming from the right side (from siting on the bike) never heard that before either before the mod.

Noticed when looking at spark plugs there was a black grease or something to the left of the front sprocket outside the cage.. no idea were that is from...

Looks like bike is messed. duno what to do but take it to the dealer and pay the big $$ to find out what the isssue is..
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Old July 1st, 2012, 05:32 PM   #23
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The carb slides are operated by vacuum, so there will be a slight lag when cracking open the throttle from idle. However 2 seconds is rather long. Are you sure your slides are not binding and move freely up and down?
What is your set idle speed? Did you raise your needles?

Are your vacuum lines all connected? Are your throttle cables or links binding that may be causing a click?

Hotter ambient temps will make the bike run hotter.

The oil you see next to the sprocket cover maybe coming from either the stator cover, oil pressure sensor, crankcase vent or another area of the engine. You might want to clean the engine to see where the leak is coming from. What is your oil condition / level like?
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Old July 1st, 2012, 07:22 PM   #24
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im goin to check again in the morning to see if any tubes not connected. Also y would the bike stop accelerating once i hit 120... to lean? need to go to 100 jets? i have riden the bike before in hotter weather and the pipe did get a hot as it was. i have the pipe wraped in exhaust heat wrap and it still it wicked hot.

neddles are raise from 2nd clips from the top. Mid range seems ok. idle and high end arnt working

RPMS set to 1500rpms but it goes up and down from hanging at 2000 to 1.3 then bak to 1.5
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Old July 1st, 2012, 09:04 PM   #25
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... i have the pipe wraped in exhaust heat wrap and it still it wicked hot.

neddles are raise from 2nd clips from the top. Mid range seems ok. idle and high end arnt working

RPMS set to 1500rpms but it goes up and down from hanging at 2000 to 1.3 then bak to 1.5
Header wrap!
That's why your engine is hot as ****. Header wrap holds in heat. The purpose of header wrap is to prevent damage to fuel or oil lines and other components caused by extreme heat and help with power on some more powerful vehicles, but it's absolutely useless on the Ninja 250. Your headers need air around them to cool them. Get rid of that crap.

Put your washers on the 3rd groove and set your idle around 1300-1350
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Old July 1st, 2012, 09:09 PM   #26
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You need to find out if 10k rpm is 1/2 throttle or 3/4 throttle for you. If it is half throttle, then your midrange is being affected by your needle height.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 08:21 AM   #27
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header wrap is just around the southern part of the pipe where it is connected to the exhaust. cause the pipe is slightly touching the end of the fender to prevent it melting more of the tip. so it only covers 6in or so.

And i was giving it wot and it runs to redline with no problem until get to 120km and then it stops and doesnt accel anmore.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:30 AM   #28
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....And i was giving it wot and it runs to redline with no problem until get to 120km and then it stops and doesnt accel anmore.
So, the fastest you're able to go is 120 km (75 mph)? Are your throttle stops and cables adjusted properly?
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:32 AM   #29
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:34 AM   #30
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RPMS set to 1500rpms but it goes up and down from hanging at 2000 to 1.3 then bak to 1.5
sounds like either an intermittent vacuum leak or a pinched hose.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:38 AM   #31
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hm. ive looked around and none of the hoses that i can see look pinched. or leaking.. but then i could be looking at the wrong hoses also. what hoses should i be looking at?

98dj (100kliens) mains was picked cause was recommended from sportisi. it was there best setup there.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 11:52 AM   #32
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"their best setup there" is not the best setup for your bike. each bike lives in a different environment, with different air. each bike needs individual tuning. finding a recommended value is a good starting point but 9/10 times wont be the correct value.

i think its best to start tuning with the pilot jet since the needle closes off the main when idle. its a good seperated system and it effects the main system so its good to start with the pilot jets. start with the largest pilot jet and go down in jet sizes. you are looking for the highest idle. for each pilot jet size, you will need to tune the pilot air screw to the max idle. write down the max idle you get for each pilot jet and pick the highest jet and mix screw setting. once you have that set, return your idle to 1500 and start tuning your main jet. start with the largest main jet, and go down in size until the wide open throttle high RPM power stops getting better. once you have your pilot and main jets correct, then you can tune the needle if it needs it. if there is any struggling when transitioning between the pilot and main jet, thats the responsibility of the needle. if it stumbles around mid-range rpm, the needle could be adjusted incorrectly, do a midrange rpm plug check and adjust the needle accordingly.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 01:59 PM   #33
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so what you are saying it since im using only 38 pilot jets. that i turn my idle knob to max rpms. then turn the mixture screws to 3turns.. see where it goes then turn it down. see where that goes.. and so forth?

and the top speed bike only goes to 120km then sits there. Now i forgot to mention that i did add some seafoam to the gas tank to clean up the carbs. so duno if that would affect anything. So if not then seems to not get enought fuel or someting to pull past that.. so 100dj mains (102.5fp) might help.
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Old July 2nd, 2012, 02:51 PM   #34
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step 1: create a new gas tank that lets you access the carbs easily with the tank off, put a fan in front of the bike pointing at the radiator. turn the fan on high.

step 2: warm the bike up. check where the idle is and make a mental note. with the bike running and the tank off you should be able to access the mix screws on the carbs. with the bike running, turn each screw a quarter turn one direction. did the idle go up or down? if it went up, keep turning in that direction until the idle reaches the highest. if it went down, turn the screw in the other direction. if you get to either end of the mix screw (wont go in any more, wont go out anymore), make a paper note about which way, and what pilot screw you were in.

step 3: try another pilot jet. pick a direction, its safer to go richer instead of leaner first. try that jet, repeat step 2 with that pilot jet. dont touch the idle nob this entire time or you will throw off your results. can you get it to idle higher with that pilot jet? then that pilot jet is better. keep going that direction until it stops getting better. did it get worse with that pilot jet? go the other direction. pick the jet that gave the highest idle after tuning the mix screw for that jet. if your idle is getting too high (higher than 4k rpm) you can start turning it down, just remember that all the numbers will be skewed. remember to take that into consideration when making and reading your notes.

step 4: after you have chosen the correct pilot jet, adjust your idle nob down to 1500rpm.

---------

step 5: put in the largest main jet you have.

step 6: put the tank on, get the bike ready to ride, warm it up and take it for a ride. while you ride make mental notes about the way it performs with wide open throttle at max rpm in a specific gear. always use the same gear. use a higher gear. if you have an area where you can take it to redline in 5th or 6th gear, thats ideal because you will notice the difference in power the most. just do it where you wont get a ticket (where its legal and you arent going to die) take a few passes to be sure its consistent. dont worry if it struggles at mid-range rpm or half throttle at this point only focus on wide open max rpm power here.

step 7: when you get back to the garage, write down what you thought of the power with that jet on paper. put in a smaller jet and try step 6 again. continue until the top end stops getting better or if it starts getting worse. pick the jet that felt the best. (most power) if two jets feel the same, pick the larger of the two.

---------

step 8: if there is any stuttering, clunkyness or roughness during an rpm climb from wide open throttle through the rpm range of 5 to 9k rpm, your fuel curve isnt right. the needle height adjusts the needle curve. if it feels jittery like the engine wants to cut out usually that means its too rich, so drop the needle down. feeling lean is a little bit harder, just doesnt have as much power but not as clunky as a rich condition

doing plug checks will tell you if you are lean or rich at any time.
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Old July 6th, 2012, 07:48 AM   #35
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Old July 6th, 2012, 09:42 AM   #36
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Old July 6th, 2012, 01:16 PM   #37
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im goin to try that tommrow and ill let u guys know how it goes
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Old July 7th, 2012, 02:25 PM   #38
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so cleaned out carbs, re-seated the needles. Upd my mains to 100. reasembled the bike..

DOESNT START! i knew the floats were empty so let it fill when starting and the bike catches but only idles tops of 5secs. any throttle kills the bike. I turned the idle screws to 2 then 3 then 3.5 turns and all the same. i even some how turned the idle screws to 0 and the bike ran longer then open at 2.... I tried starting it so many times the battery died (have it charging now)

*update* there was a 2 small hole like pin holes(side by side) in the small vaccum line that goes to the fuel peacock. duno if that has anything to do with it. Im goin to have to pick up a new hose to replace that one tommorow...

*2nd update* So i took that tube and wraped electical tape around it were the holes were and then tried again to start her up. It started! but only with full choke on. once full choke was taking off bike would instantly die. again messed with screws and still no difference. from 2 to 3turns. when giving throttle with choke bike is very sluggish as in not getting enough gas (not moving)... im assuming tape isn't good enough and need to get the tube replaced.

So taking the bike to the dealer to have him look at it.

Last futzed with by mkulchar; July 7th, 2012 at 04:22 PM.
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Old July 7th, 2012, 11:03 PM   #39
DaBlue1
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Name: Blue
Location: Charlotte, NC
Join Date: Sep 2010

Motorcycle(s): 2009 Kawasaki Ninja 250R

Posts: A lot.
Sounds like you need to start from scratch.

Snorkel in
100 main jets (ok for airbox)
stock needles (Jet Needle #L: N9VU, #R: N9VW) have a better taper than Sportisi
Pilot Screw (turns out) #L: 2 1/2, #R: 2 1/4

Since you removed the KLEEN air, make sure the vacuum system is plumbed and plugged properly.

If you need to go more than 2.5 turns on the pilot, you need to go one size bigger.

Here's a good thing to read; https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B8nS...eDg/edit?pli=1
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Old July 14th, 2012, 11:04 AM   #40
mkulchar
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Name: matthew
Location: niagara
Join Date: Jul 2011

Motorcycle(s): 2010 250r ninja

Posts: 115
ok, so cleaned out my carbs and turns out the seafoam clogged all the pilot jet holes in the carb itself so it wasntgetting any fuel. took long time but got it out and the bike starts u and runs.

My problem that is left now is when i drive normally from 6-7k and below and i come to a stop the bike returns to normal rpms of 1.5k no problems.

BUT when i go WOT and come to a stop the rpms drop to 3k and sit there. then very slowly drops to 2 then hovers there then slowly drops to 1.5. ALSO can only get the bike to 130kph. it rides to redline no problem till u get to 5th or 6th then stops at say 9-10k at 130kph. basically the same problem as using the 98djs. before the exhaust was able to get to 160 with ease.



Using 100dj main jets with 2ish turns on mixture. 38pilots
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