Shooting for 48HP - Page 2

mgentz · April 18th, 2016, 06:27 PM

how's it coming @bruce71198?

bruce71198 · April 19th, 2016, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

how's it coming @bruce71198?

With my con rods complete I got the 67mm piston in the cylinder without it protruding. Working on squish and comp. ratio tonight

[IMG]

[/IMG]

Racer x · April 19th, 2016, 04:22 PM

Wow.
That is perfect. Pointy high top pistons are problematic in controlling detonation. Those look fantastic.
If the bigger valves hit the cylinder walls you can notch the walls above the ring travel.

mgentz · April 19th, 2016, 08:23 PM

What block is that?

HoneyBadgerRy · April 20th, 2016, 04:42 AM

It appears to be an all aluminium block like the ninja 300, but I don't think they made rings that will mate up to a chrome plated block over stock bore?

bruce71198 · April 20th, 2016, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

What block is that?

In due time....

Racer x · April 20th, 2016, 03:06 PM

I think I know but will not say.

RacinNinja · April 20th, 2016, 03:18 PM

It's liner-less.....that should tell you everything you need to know.

HoneyBadgerRy · April 20th, 2016, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

It's liner-less.....that should tell you everything you need to know.

That OP had a custom all cast iron block machined for him? /S.

On a serious note, he either had custom rings made, that block is just for a test, or he is doing something wrong.

bruce71198 · April 20th, 2016, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

That OP had a custom all cast iron block machined for him? /S.

On a serious note, he either had custom rings made, that block is just for a test, or he is doing something wrong.

Its Nikasil and Kawasaki actually makes the rings for it.

HoneyBadgerRy · April 20th, 2016, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Its Nikasil and Kawasaki actually makes the rings for it.

Wait, I forgot he didn't bore the motor over, sorry disregard everything I said about the block or rings above.

mgentz · April 20th, 2016, 04:34 PM

Is it:http://www.technical-inc.net/products/detail843.html

HoneyBadgerRy · April 20th, 2016, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

Is it:http://www.technical-inc.net/products/detail843.html

5mm over bore, ceramic coated, aluminium block, paired up with a 7.8mm longer stroke for a total of 345.51cc's. That might make the power level you wanted. (Along with valves and ported head.)

The stock 250 bore to stroke ratio was 1.5:1, stock 300 is 1.27:1, and your bike is 1.36:1, you a can use this info to help predict the torque curve.

Racer x · April 20th, 2016, 06:42 PM

I thought it was a Kawahana block

bruce71198 · April 21st, 2016, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

Is it:http://www.technical-inc.net/products/detail843.html

Yes, but did you read the fine print? I actually picked this up from someone on here just to see what the quality was and if I could make something out of it.
I used the 3 layer head gasket that came with it on my last engine to help increase the squish and prevent the head gasket failures I was experiencing. It worked. Unable to procure more of these head gaskets I have Cometic making some. Back to the fine print, the pistons are cast not forged and although nicely machined they where soft, heavy and way to tall for the stroked crankshaft. With the amount of material between the top ring groove and piston crown I chucked them up in the lathe and started cutting. When they finally fit the top of the piston was to thin, into the scrap bin they went @Somchai gave me the idea to try ZX6 pistons and rods. The 2010 parts where the closest so with a little modification i'm pretty close to something that may work. Stay "tuned".

HoneyBadgerRy · April 21st, 2016, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

Yes, but did you read the fine print? I actually picked this up from someone on here just to see what the quality was and if I could make something out of it.
I used the 3 layer head gasket that came with it on my last engine to help increase the squish and prevent the head gasket failures I was experiencing. It worked. Unable to procure more of these head gaskets I have Cometic making some. Back to the fine print, the pistons are cast not forged and although nicely machined they where soft, heavy and way to tall for the stroked crankshaft. With the amount of material between the top ring groove and piston crown I chucked them up in the lathe and started cutting. When they finally fit the top of the piston was to thin, into the scrap bin they went @Somchai gave me the idea to try ZX6 pistons and rods. The 2010 parts where the closest so with a little modification i'm pretty close to something that may work. Stay "tuned".

2010 zx6 rods end up being the right length?

bruce71198 · April 21st, 2016, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

2010 zx6 rods end up being the right length?

About .012" to short

HoneyBadgerRy · April 21st, 2016, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

About .012" to short

Was there not enough piston to crank clearance, or was the squish just gigantic? Did you end up milling some off the top of the cylinder? If you did what did you do about cam chain slack (does the CCT make up for it) and the effect on cam timing?

bruce71198 · April 21st, 2016, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

Was there not enough piston to crank clearance, or was the squish just gigantic? Did you end up milling some off the top of the cylinder? If you did what did you do about cam chain slack (does the CCT make up for it) and the effect on cam timing?

I'm using the ZX6 piston as well, it clears the crank just fine. Squish is big and can't mill the cylinder block because it will flake the chrome, I'll take what I need off the crank case. I have slotted cam gears to rectify the cam timing issue. Cam chain slack is minimal, not an issue.

mgentz · April 21st, 2016, 03:38 PM

Crazy fine print.

I am sticking to 264 but you are tempting me to try 282....

bruce71198 · April 21st, 2016, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

Crazy fine print.

I am sticking to 264 but you are tempting me to try 282....

It appears that Wiesco is now recommending bigger sleeves if you are going 4mm over. Mine worked ok but I talked to others that cracked the cylinders at 4mm. You could always throw a 300 crank in yours for 315cc.

HoneyBadgerRy · April 21st, 2016, 05:19 PM

I think somebody just needs to make +4mm rings for chrome liners. Then we could use 300 cylinders. I'd imagine JE or Wiesco would make one if there was some interest and we asked politely.

mgentz · April 21st, 2016, 05:47 PM

Millennium technologies will put in different sleeves if you want.....

bruce71198 · April 22nd, 2016, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

I think somebody just needs to make +4mm rings for chrome liners. Then we could use 300 cylinders. I'd imagine JE or Wiesco would make one if there was some interest and we asked politely.

300 cylinders are 62mm. Or are you talking about boring the 300 cylinders and chroming them?

bruce71198 · April 22nd, 2016, 08:46 AM

@mgentz didn't you post some photo's of your ported head?

HoneyBadgerRy · April 22nd, 2016, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

300 cylinders are 62mm. Or are you talking about boring the 300 cylinders and chroming them?

Yes.

RacinNinja · April 22nd, 2016, 09:29 AM

If you need custom rings and are proficient at measuring end gap, ring width, etc, just call Total Seal. They will custom make, very affordable, any rings you need out of any material you need.

We had to do this for the Venolia slugs we're running in our race bikes. No one makes rings for them any more.....

http://www.totalseal.com/

HoneyBadgerRy · April 22nd, 2016, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

If you need custom rings and are proficient at measuring end gap, ring width, etc, just call Total Seal. They will custom make, very affordable, any rings you need out of any material you need.

We had to do this for the Venolia slugs we're running in our race bikes. No one makes rings for them any more.....

http://www.totalseal.com/

"Home of the gapless rings" Does anybody know how they put a gapless ring on a piston?

RacinNinja · April 22nd, 2016, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoneyBadgerRy

"Home of the gapless rings" Does anybody know how they put a gapless ring on a piston?

It's not truly gapless like you think.....

http://www.racetep.com/totalsealframe.html

Quote:

As shown in the illustration, compression gas is deflected by the rail into the piston groove and aid in pressure loading the ring throughout the 4 stroke cycle. At the same time the rail also and most importantly closes off the combustion gas leak path created by the ring end gap. This gap is the primary cause of blow-by in a 4 cycle engine. With a conventional type ring as the ring and cylinder wear the ring end gap increases and the blow-by figures increase. The Gapless ring blow-by figures are not affected by this wear, as the ring end gap increases it is blocked by the rail portion of Total Seals patented interlocking 2 piece design stopping the blow-by at the source. Conventional style rings when newly installed will show leak down figures of 7% or higher these figures can quickly exceed 20% or higher after a surprisingly short period of time. Gapless rings on the other hand when newly installed typically show leak down figures of 2% and lower and should remain the same throughout the life of the engine.

mgentz · April 22nd, 2016, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bruce71198

@mgentz didn't you post some photo's of your ported head?

I did. They are in the build thread. I could probably find them, or take new ones for you. My head will be back today.

mgentz · April 22nd, 2016, 10:16 AM

I called total seal and asked about my 64mm application.....no dice.

RacinNinja · April 22nd, 2016, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

I called total seal and asked about my 64mm application.....no dice.

Really?

We called them and just gave them ring specs (Thickness, end gap, ring width, etc) and the materials we wanted.

POOF! Done.

Did they say why?

mgentz · April 22nd, 2016, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RacinNinja

Really?

We called them and just gave them ring specs (Thickness, end gap, ring width, etc) and the materials we wanted.

POOF! Done.

Did they say why?

Mostly due to the .8mm ring thickness and 64mm bore size. This is custom to JE. I asked if he could make me rails and modify my rings as well.

To qualify: they can do this, but it needs to be a 1000 piece minimum order.

RacinNinja · April 22nd, 2016, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

Mostly due to the .8mm ring thickness and 64mm bore size. This is custom to JE. I asked if he could make me rails and modify my rings as well.

To qualify: they can do this, but it needs to be a 1000 piece minimum order.

Ah, that makes more sense. Thanks!

mgentz · May 22nd, 2016, 06:37 PM

any updates Bruce?

bruce71198 · May 24th, 2016, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgentz

any updates Bruce?

Soon, I had to build a 2mm, 300 crank engine for a guy (315cc), ported stock valve head, tighted up the squish. Runs real strong, I want to get it on the dyno and see what it does. After that build I got back into my SV engine (2 of them) then Moto America started up, so I've been real busy.

mgentz · May 24th, 2016, 06:50 PM

K. Thanks for the update.

Baron · May 24th, 2016, 07:02 PM

TP Ninja · May 29th, 2016, 06:53 AM

48hp out of a 250? Hahahaha! That's called a grenade!

mgentz · May 29th, 2016, 07:21 AM

While he started with a 250, Bruce is investigating the 300+ cc range to get this amount of HP.

So far, he has been pretty successful.

April 19th, 2016, 04:22 PM	#43
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	Wow. That is perfect. Pointy high top pistons are problematic in controlling detonation. Those look fantastic. If the bigger valves hit the cylinder walls you can notch the walls above the ring travel. __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

April 20th, 2016, 04:42 AM	#45
HoneyBadgerRy ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Ryan Location: Beaufort SC Join Date: Aug 2015 Motorcycle(s): 05 Ninja 250, 04 KTM 625 SMC, 01 Xc250 Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 3	It appears to be an all aluminium block like the ninja 300, but I don't think they made rings that will mate up to a chrome plated block over stock bore? __________________________________________________ Because Unregistered sucks at riding.

April 20th, 2016, 03:06 PM	#47
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	I think I know but will not say. __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

April 20th, 2016, 03:18 PM	#48
RacinNinja Vintage Screwball Name: B Location: Washington Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '16	It's liner-less.....that should tell you everything you need to know. __________________________________________________ Goin' fast on slow bikes!

April 20th, 2016, 06:42 PM	#54
Racer x ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Eric Location: Iowa City Join Date: May 2009 Motorcycle(s): 2008 Kawmeracchi 350 2010 Project X Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 54 MOTM - Sep '18, Feb '16	I thought it was a Kawahana block __________________________________________________ Top speed 123.369mph. Ohio mile Worlds fastest 250 ninja

April 18th, 2016, 06:27 PM	#41
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	how's it coming @bruce71198?

April 19th, 2016, 08:23 PM	#44
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	What block is that?

April 20th, 2016, 04:34 PM	#52
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	Is it:http://www.technical-inc.net/products/detail843.html

April 21st, 2016, 03:38 PM	#60
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	Crazy fine print. I am sticking to 264 but you are tempting me to try 282....

April 21st, 2016, 05:19 PM	#62
HoneyBadgerRy ninjette.org certified postwhore Name: Ryan Location: Beaufort SC Join Date: Aug 2015 Motorcycle(s): 05 Ninja 250, 04 KTM 625 SMC, 01 Xc250 Posts: A lot. Blog Entries: 3	I think somebody just needs to make +4mm rings for chrome liners. Then we could use 300 cylinders. I'd imagine JE or Wiesco would make one if there was some interest and we asked politely. __________________________________________________ Because Unregistered sucks at riding.

April 21st, 2016, 05:47 PM	#63
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	Millennium technologies will put in different sleeves if you want.....

April 22nd, 2016, 08:46 AM	#65
bruce71198 ninjette.org sage Name: bruce Location: northern illinois Join Date: Jan 2012 Motorcycle(s): Race bikes:08 Ninja 250,11 R6,16 ZX6,SV650.3 HD-1947,2-2003,2010. 1946 Indian and a lot of dirt bikes.2 Posts: 999	@mgentz didn't you post some photo's of your ported head?

April 22nd, 2016, 09:29 AM	#67
RacinNinja Vintage Screwball Name: B Location: Washington Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2011 Ninja 250, 2008 Ninja 250, 2019 KTM 1290SDR, 2017 FZ10 Posts: A lot. MOTM - Mar '16	If you need custom rings and are proficient at measuring end gap, ring width, etc, just call Total Seal. They will custom make, very affordable, any rings you need out of any material you need. We had to do this for the Venolia slugs we're running in our race bikes. No one makes rings for them any more..... http://www.totalseal.com/ __________________________________________________ Goin' fast on slow bikes!
	1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.

April 22nd, 2016, 10:16 AM	#71
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	I called total seal and asked about my 64mm application.....no dice.

May 22nd, 2016, 06:37 PM	#75
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	any updates Bruce?

May 24th, 2016, 06:50 PM	#77
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	K. Thanks for the update.

May 24th, 2016, 07:02 PM	#78
Baron Urban Legend Name: Baron Location: Brampton, ON Join Date: Apr 2014 Motorcycle(s): 09 Ninja 250R SE - Circe Posts: 542	__________________________________________________ "Life is like riding - *You can either tear the fastlane in half or stay in the slipstream trying to play catch up*." -Baron

May 29th, 2016, 06:53 AM	#79
TP Ninja ninjette.org member Name: Peter Location: Mexico Join Date: Feb 2016 Motorcycle(s): 300 Ninja Posts: 19	48hp out of a 250? Hahahaha! That's called a grenade!

May 29th, 2016, 07:21 AM	#80
mgentz Board Member Name: ... Location: WI Join Date: Dec 2011 Motorcycle(s): 250R (street), 250R (dirt) Posts: A lot.	While he started with a 250, Bruce is investigating the 300+ cc range to get this amount of HP. So far, he has been pretty successful.

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