Don't mess with cagers!!!

[thunderpipes127]

Strong gun laws are a joke. Lets take for example the RPG. and M203 grenade launcher and live HE explosive rounds. Absolutely illegal government thinks they got it to were none are to be found here. I can make one trip to the coast and come back with both with enough ordinance to level a small country. Your strong gun laws help you sleep better at night under the illusion that there is such a thing as gun"control" when in fact they control nothing they just make it to where I can't buy my G18 auto at wal mart.

[Motofool]

There is only one way to reduce social violence:

Work with love, compassion and heart on creating and sustaining stronger families.

It takes 16~18 years to educate a real man/woman; most people choose letting a crappy society do the hard and patient work for them.

Much more monsters have been in the oven during all these years of stupid video games, over-busy parents, drugs, ignorant TV shows, political correctness, porn, etc.

With so many messed up brains and broken spirits, more terrible things will be seen for many years to come.

We can learn, change our approach to life and survive or end up killing each other one at a time.

People who want to hurt or kill others have been doing so since well before the formula for gun powder was disclosed by Chinese people.

More crazy/rootless people + More effective tools = Increased danger for all.

People's minds are the source of the tools and the source of evil wish; hence, people should be the priority of any corrective effort.

[allanoue]

It is true that there are big holes, because the congress has made the ATF toothless and ineffective and that can and should be fixed.

[akima]

Originally Posted by Motofool

There is only one way to reduce social violence:

Work with love, compassion and heart on creating and sustaining stronger families.

It takes 16~18 years to educate a real man/woman; most people choose letting a crappy society do the hard and patient work for them.

Much more monsters have been in the oven during all these years of stupid video games, over-busy parents, drugs, ignorant TV shows, political correctness, porn, etc.

With so many messed up brains and broken spirits, more terrible things will be seen for many years to come.

We can learn, change our approach to life and survive or end up killing each other one at a time.

People who want to hurt or kill others have been doing so since well before the formula for gun powder was disclosed by Chinese people.

More crazy/rootless people + More effective tools = Increased danger for all.

People's minds are the source of the tools and the source of evil wish; hence, people should be the priority of any corrective effort.

* kisses motofool *

Couldn't have put it better.

[slickt0mmy]

Originally Posted by Motofool

There is only one way to reduce social violence:

Work with love, compassion and heart on creating and sustaining stronger families.

It takes 16~18 years to educate a real man/woman; most people choose letting a crappy society do the hard and patient work for them.

Much more monsters have been in the oven during all these years of stupid video games, over-busy parents, drugs, ignorant TV shows, political correctness, porn, etc.

With so many messed up brains and broken spirits, more terrible things will be seen for many years to come.

We can learn, change our approach to life and survive or end up killing each other one at a time.

People who want to hurt or kill others have been doing so since well before the formula for gun powder was disclosed by Chinese people.

More crazy/rootless people + More effective tools = Increased danger for all.

People's minds are the source of the tools and the source of evil wish; hence, people should be the priority of any corrective effort.

Completely agree.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Motofool

People's minds are the source of the tools and the source of evil wish; hence, people should be the priority of any corrective effort.

Well said,

[lgk]

Originally Posted by allanoue

It is true that there are big holes, because the congress has made the ATF toothless and ineffective and that can and should be fixed.

They have more than enough power to accomplish their scope.

Giving them more resources wont solve anything.


I liked them better when they were simple tax collectors.
The agency was far more legitimate then.

[thunderpipes127]

Originally Posted by Motofool

There is only one way to reduce social violence:

Work with love, compassion and heart on creating and sustaining stronger families.

It takes 16~18 years to educate a real man/woman; most people choose letting a crappy society do the hard and patient work for them.

Much more monsters have been in the oven during all these years of stupid video games, over-busy parents, drugs, ignorant TV shows, political correctness, porn, etc.

With so many messed up brains and broken spirits, more terrible things will be seen for many years to come.

We can learn, change our approach to life and survive or end up killing each other one at a time.

People who want to hurt or kill others have been doing so since well before the formula for gun powder was disclosed by Chinese people.

More crazy/rootless people + More effective tools = Increased danger for all.

People's minds are the source of the tools and the source of evil wish; hence, people should be the priority of any corrective effort.

100% correct people are in control of their own actions. People make the world better worse not the tools used to make it that way. You sir are a gentleman and a scholar.

[allanoue]

Stop making criminals and lunatics. Great idea! Problem solved!
Lets talk about motorcycles

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by Motofool

There is only one way to reduce social violence:

Snippity-snip...

People who want to hurt or kill others have been doing so since well before the formula for gun powder was disclosed by Chinese people.

More crazy/rootless people + More effective tools = Increased danger for all.

People's minds are the source of the tools and the source of evil wish; hence, people should be the priority of any corrective effort.

Nice :-)
Way more guns in Canada than the US but murders actually make news because they aren't normal.
Gun carrying people mention personal responsibility, teamwork, watching out for your friends and neighbors, less gov etc but we all have that. The only difference I see is US people always mention getting the other guy before he gets you. I don't know anyone from the UK, Australia or Canada who fears strangers. That's the sad difference, maybe all these movies and horrible things on youtube are making people live in fear? Seems to be a common thread here. I worked as a doorperson at an Irish pub for years and I'm 5'3", lots of threats when I threw someone out but never once feared for my life - I can't imagine how horrible that would be :-(

If someone wanted to flip out and steal my bike or car if I owned one, I'd say go ahead!, that's what insurance is for :-) New bike, new farkles - woohoo!

@BlueHairSar
Right on.
The NRA suggested putting a cop at every school so now freakshows could shoot the cop first and get more weapons and some body armor..sigh. It's so sad that it's not even funny.

Back to bikes? This is fun though, I get to learn what the rest of the world thinks.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Firehorse

Nice :-)
Way more guns in Canada than the US but murders actually make news because they aren't normal.
Gun carrying people mention personal responsibility, teamwork, watching out for your friends and neighbors, less gov etc but we all have that. The only difference I see is US people always mention getting the other guy before he gets you. I don't know anyone from the UK, Australia or Canada who fears strangers. That's the sad difference, maybe all these movies and horrible things on youtube are making people live in fear? Seems to be a common thread here. I worked as a doorperson at an Irish pub for years and I'm 5'3", lots of threats when I threw someone out but never once feared for my life - I can't imagine how horrible that would be :-(

We don't fear strangers, just the criminals. I'm sure you do too.

Originally Posted by Firehorse

If someone wanted to flip out and steal my bike or car if I owned one, I'd say go ahead!, that's what insurance is for :-) New bike, new farkles - woohoo!

You are way too cool about getting jacked yo!

Originally Posted by Firehorse

Right on.
The NRA suggested putting a cop at every school so now freakshows could shoot the cop first and get more weapons and some body armor..sigh. It's so sad that it's not even funny.

Wat

y u no make cents

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

We don't fear strangers, just the criminals. I'm sure you do too.

Yep, but I don't assume everyone is out to get me or that there are criminals running rampant everywhere you look - the news makes it look that way. All crime stats are going down not just here.

You are way too cool about getting jacked yo!

Really though, who gives a crap about a piece of metal compared to my life. And you know me, I even hug my freakin bike

Wat

y u no make cents

If I was a bad guy I'd be saying yahoo, gimme a scope to take out the cop first and really make the news. That's what makes no sense to me. I don't have the answer but that ain't it.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Firehorse

Yep, but I don't assume everyone is out to get me or that there are criminals running rampant everywhere you look - the news makes it look that way. All crime stats are going down not just here.

Neither do we. Carrying a gun is like wearing a seatbelt, you're not expecting to get in a crash, its a what if just in case type of thing.

Originally Posted by Firehorse

Really though, who gives a crap about a piece of metal compared to my life. And you know me, I even hug my freakin bike

Uhm its not compared to your life, who said it was?

Originally Posted by Firehorse

If I was a bad guy I'd be saying yahoo, gimme a scope to take out the cop first and really make the news. That's what makes no sense to me. I don't have the answer but that ain't it.

If you snipe the cop you won't have enough time to go get the kids!

[BlueHairSar]

Originally Posted by slickt0mmy

So what would you have done? Give him a hug and make him some pancakes? Good luck with that.

Any chance this conversation could happen without you being a condescending dick?

Call the police? Guess what they're going to do when they get there..........that's right. Be violent or use the threat of violence to get him to comply.

There's a big difference between civilians and LEOs/military, and that's a whole other discussion.

As a former law enforcement officer, I can tell you right from the get-go that if I were responding to a call like that, it would have been with guns drawn. There are times when the only thing that can stop violence is more violence. That is not always the answer, but why else do police carry firearms?

This is another example of something that's almost exclusivity an American point of view. There are tens, possibly hundreds of countries with organized law enforcement who do NOT have guns.

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

Neither do we. Carrying a gun is like wearing a seatbelt, you're not expecting to get in a crash, its a what if just in case type of thing.

hahahahaha. Really?
No one could steal my seatbelt and kill someone with it. Not even in the ballpark, my friend.

Uhm its not compared to your life, who said it was?

That may be a possibility if someone is off their rocker so easy to say, ah, take it..no big deal. I wouldn't waste any of my time.

If you snipe the cop you won't have enough time to go get the kids!

Tell that to one of my military friends. They'd be ripping the "goodies' off before his body hit the ground.

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by BlueHairSar

Any chance this conversation could happen without you being a condescending dick?

The only good thing that came about from the horrible recent events is that many of us can talk about the issues but some still take it as a personal attack

This is another example of something that's almost exclusivity an American point of view. There are tens, possibly hundreds of countries with organized law enforcement who do NOT have guns.

Are you visiting Canada anytime soon? I like how you think.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by BlueHairSar

This is another example of something that's almost exclusivity an American point of view. There are tens, possibly hundreds of countries with organized law enforcement who do NOT have guns.

That's exactly who I want protecting me

Link to original page on YouTube.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Firehorse

hahahahaha. Really?
No one could steal my seatbelt and kill someone with it. Not even in the ballpark, my friend.

You're not great with metaphors huh...

[Firehorse]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

You're not great with metaphors huh...

Wasn't a metaphor, duh... it was your example of how guns are safety devices like seatbelts..
Still on perks or just nasty today?

Perfectly enlightening conversation out the window again.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by Firehorse

Wasn't a metaphor, duh... it was your example of how guns are safety devices like seatbelts..
Still on perks or just nasty today?

Perfectly enlightening conversation out the window again.

Not at all, again you missed the metaphor

[Z300]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

That's exactly who I want protecting me

Link to original page on YouTube.

They have guns lol

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by ninja yas

They have guns lol

No, they don't, which is why they hit the car with batons.

[Z300]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

No, they don't, which is why they hit the car with batons.

looked like they had gun holsters but might be the baton holder

[lgk]

Originally Posted by ninja yas

looked like they had gun holsters but might be the baton holder

Those weren't firearm officers.
They have a special uniform, and look kind of like an under equipped SWAT.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Firehorse

Tell that to one of my military friends. They'd be ripping the "goodies' off before his body hit the ground.

Just because your friends are special forces doesnt mean all mass killers are....

the cop getting sniped is a bad scenario for the perp since most cops do radio checkins before they enter the building and are in an office inside with no windows. Instead of 100% success rate, its 40%. The risk is too high for a killer who wants to be famous. He'll pick another spot.

It not like a video game where you just spawn and kill, there are lots of aspects of security.

Its already common to have policeman at schools in my district.
And there's procedures and physical features in place in case something happens.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by BlueHairSar

This is another example of something that's almost exclusivity an American point of view. There are tens, possibly hundreds of countries with organized law enforcement who do NOT have guns.

Where ever that is i can guarantee style of enforcement wouldn't work here... the country is too vast for a centralized SWAT.

If it makes any difference, a lot of the british divisions still have armed officers. The polar opposite could be the German police which are mostly issued automatic rifles and pistols.

The American model is in-between with unarmed reserve components, regular armed officers, and special tactics personnel. Its a good match for our society.

If everyone suddenly turned nice, and the crime rate was 0 for 2 decades then maybe your argument makes sense. But right now its unrealistic.

[BlueHairSar]

Originally Posted by lgk

If everyone suddenly turned nice, and the crime rate was 0 for 2 decades then maybe your argument makes sense. But right now its unrealistic.

I think it's unrealistic for the crime rate to be completely demolished, though I do agree with you that that style of LE to work here right now is unrealistic. I will continue to that this mentality of "oh, I'll just reach for my f***ing gun!" is a pretty big part of the problem. Note that I also said PART of the problem, because I think there's a lot that contributes, but in interest of not COMPLETELY jacking this thread, I'll stop there.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by BlueHairSar

I think it's unrealistic for the crime rate to be completely demolished, though I do agree with you that that style of LE to work here right now is unrealistic. I will continue to that this mentality of "oh, I'll just reach for my f***ing gun!" is a pretty big part of the problem. Note that I also said PART of the problem, because I think there's a lot that contributes, but in interest of not COMPLETELY jacking this thread, I'll stop there.

From experience, the case shown at the OP its perfectly acceptable to draw down as an officer, or shoot as in self defense if the attack pressed on, if in the US.

Whether you try to drive off and end up causing 1mil in damage in escaping, or shoot the assaulting insane man. Whether you choose to do so or not is a personal decision. American laws support you either way.

Judging other peoples mentality is fail sometimes since its too objective. Thats why at the beginning of this thread, i discussed how Australian laws work against his defenses, they remove several options immediately from his battery of choices.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by lgk

From experience, the case shown at the OP its perfectly acceptable to draw down as an officer, or shoot as in self defense if the attack pressed on, if in the US.

Whether you try to drive off and end up causing 1mil in damage in escaping, or shoot the assaulting insane man. Whether you choose to do so or not is a personal decision. American laws support you either way.

Judging other peoples mentality is fail sometimes since its too objective. Thats why at the beginning of this thread, i discussed how Australian laws work against his defenses, they remove several options immediately from his battery of choices.

Judging by the reports it looks like under the Australian model no one was hurt, property damage only. Under your model, a clearly mentally ill kid would have been shot like a rabid dog.

[Aggrotech]

Since a few people talked about the topic of schools in this thread...theres a few schools in my area who are too cheap to hire security, so they're locking ALL main entrances/exits, Only keeping 1 very small entrance open (that connects the inside/outside of the school,) not opening the 2 main entrances until the buses arrive and they are also locking every classroom door from the inside. Every student that will be walking the halls alone (like for the bathroom or office visit) will now be required to have an escort from an adult.


A little ridiculous, tbh.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by allanoue

Under your model, a clearly mentally ill kid would have been shot like a rabid dog.

First off, i would not simply label him as mentally ill. He had murderous intent.
Second, he is not a kid.
Third, his behavior is no different than a dangerous animal. Except he's more dangerous.
Fourth, it was not his first offense
Fifth, kept attacking the victim for over fifteen min.
Sixth, police response happened after perp escaped.
Etc.

Yes i would have shot him.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by lgk

First off, i would not simply label him as mentally ill. He had murderous intent.
Second, he is not a kid.
Third, his behavior is no different than a dangerous animal. Except he's more dangerous.
Fourth, it was not his first offense
Fifth, kept attacking the victim for over fifteen min.
Sixth, police response happened after perp escaped.
Etc.

Yes i would have shot him.

a lot of speculation on your part
Facts are facts
21 is a kid my opinion

[slickt0mmy]

Originally Posted by BlueHairSar

Any chance this conversation could happen without you being a condescending dick?



There's a big difference between civilians and LEOs/military, and that's a whole other discussion.



This is another example of something that's almost exclusivity an American point of view. There are tens, possibly hundreds of countries with organized law enforcement who do NOT have guns.

1. Resorting to name-calling is a excellent approach. Everyone knows that's the best way to start off a rebuttal.

2. Actually, there isn't a huge difference. The majority of civilians I know who carry guns on a daily basis have just as much or more training with their firearms than the average police officer. Scary, but true. From my observations, about 50% of cops view their firearms as "tools of the trade". They have no interest in them outside of work, and therefore, don't train with them outside of what is required. They fire about 100 rounds every six months to re-qualify but other than that, they don't touch them.
On the flip-side of that, the majority of civilians view them as a hobby. They love shooting and regularly attend training classes where they fire thousands of rounds in a weekend and plenty of them could outshoot pretty much any police officer I know, other than maybe the SWAT guys. With that in mind, who would you rather be carrying a gun?

[Alex]

Originally Posted by slickt0mmy

On the flip-side of that, the majority of civilians view them as a hobby. They love shooting and regularly attend training classes where they fire thousands of rounds in a weekend and plenty of them could outshoot pretty much any police officer I know, other than maybe the SWAT guys. With that in mind, who would you rather be carrying a gun?

The majority of civilians who own guns regularly attend training classes and fire thousands of rounds in a weekend.

Repeat that back again as if you believe it, and keep trying until you realize how silly it sounds out loud.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Alex

The majority of civilians who own guns regularly attend training classes and fire thousands of rounds in a weekend.

Repeat that back again as if you believe it, and keep trying until you realize how silly it sounds out loud.

Not as far fetched as it seems.
Its not uncommon for a single person to fire 500/ day in some training classes.
On the qualifying test alone i shot 150rds.

A person practicing for state and national level competition will use 250-500/ day practicing 2-3 times a week.

Also with dept budget cuts supplemental training ammo is getting even more scarce. Cops that want to train are having a hard time procuring the ammo they need for practice. Also a lot of the old police ranges are getting closed down since need to undergo renovations. Further reducing an officer's timeframe for practice.

A lot of the guys i know go to the range far more often than police officers. The SWAT guys go to the competition and lose a lot of times, and its not because their training sucks. Its because they are expert level marksmen competing against master level civilians.

Might be silly where you're from but a citizen getting training and practicing regularly is very common here.

[Jiggles]

Originally Posted by lgk

Not as far fetched as it seems.
Its not uncommon for a single person to fire 500/ day in some training classes.
On the qualifying test alone i shot 150rds.

A person practicing for state and national level competition will use 250-500/ day practicing 2-3 times a week.

Also with dept budget cuts supplemental training ammo is getting even more scarce. Cops that want to train are having a hard time procuring the ammo they need for practice. Also a lot of the old police ranges are getting closed down since need to undergo renovations. Further reducing an officer's timeframe for practice.

A lot of the guys i know go to the range far more often than police officers. The SWAT guys go to the competition and lose a lot of times, and its not because their training sucks. Its because they are expert level marksmen competing against master level civilians.

Might be silly where you're from but a citizen getting training and practicing regularly is very common here.

I'm on your side and still find your logic moronic

[lgk]

Originally Posted by Jiggles

I'm on your side and still find your logic moronic

Reality sometimes can't be modeled after simple logic...
this is from experience, i gathered over the years in local competitions and running a shooting range.

what i was trying to get across is...
-being a policeman does not equal being a good shooter.
-most police dont practice often
-policemen shoot less when dept stop issuing 500rds a month.
-close down 24hr range day shift guys get less chance to shoot.
-a majority of police dont care about shooting.
-its easy to put a couple thousand rounds down range, over a week that's only 4 bricks of 22...
-people that buy guns for personal protection practice regularly.
-people that compete on a regular basis use a lot of ammo
-people that compete out shoot officers by a large margin.

my experience draws the conclusion that most gun owners practice more regularly than most police.

AND yes ill refrain from drunken educational posts in the future.

[allanoue]

Originally Posted by Alex

The majority of civilians who own guns regularly attend training classes and fire thousands of rounds in a weekend.

Repeat that back again as if you believe it, and keep trying until you realize how silly it sounds out loud.

Anyone watch Doomsday Preppers on the National Geographic channel.
3 things I learned from the show

1 store a weeks worth of food and water
2 other then a well trained cop only trust teenage girls with a gun
3 there are a lot of financially successful nut jobs in this country.

[bbonds007]

Originally Posted by Aggrotech

Since a few people talked about the topic of schools in this thread...theres a few schools in my area who are too cheap to hire security, so they're locking ALL main entrances/exits, Only keeping 1 very small entrance open (that connects the inside/outside of the school,) not opening the 2 main entrances until the buses arrive and they are also locking every classroom door from the inside. Every student that will be walking the halls alone (like for the bathroom or office visit) will now be required to have an escort from an adult.


A little ridiculous, tbh.

Agreed, since simple glass on doors and windows is hardly going to stop a person with a gun.

Sooner or latter someone is also going to be a bit more creative and start using simple explosives or fire. IMO, even if you could magically confiscate 100% of America's guns, there are still 1,000 ways to mass kill people. I really do not believe people so mentally disturbed are not going to commit their act simply because it is slightly more inconvenient to orchestrate.

[Alex]

Originally Posted by lgk

Reality sometimes can't be modeled after simple logic...

In fact, it can.

Originally Posted by lgk

my experience draws the conclusion that most gun owners practice more regularly than most police.

If you believe this, you have zero credibility left here. If you're just dug in and are unable to acknowledge that in a country with 300 million firearms, it's a wild fantasy that most practice regularly, more regularly than the police, you've demonstrated that it is completely pointless to debate you. Or one step further, to allow you to continue to debate gun topics here.