DIY: Installing the Ecotrons EFI Kit on a Pregen

[n4mwd]

Here are a few photos that detail the fitting and hose sizes.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

You're the same level of on-your-own with any method you use.

Not really. When multiple people use the exact same install method, then any problems and their solutions will also be the same.

[choneofakind]

Yes, but most of us are using the non-unit install method.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Yes, but most of us are using the non-unit install method.

The modular install method wasn't available when you installed yours. The modular install takes the trial and error out of the equation.

EDIT: And you still have the fuel pump outlet on the non-left side of the bike.

[choneofakind]

The modular install has always been an option. I didn't do it because I don't have the tools to cut pieces of metal and make brackets. I also don't see it as particularly beneficial/harmful either. It's the same parts arranged differently. There is no one way that is superior. As long as everything is hooked up and located according to the directions, the bike will run.

I've had no trial and error. I did it all in one afternoon, and the bike has been running ever since.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I've had no trial and error. I did it all in one afternoon, and the bike has been running ever since.

I've only published the bracket drawings for a few days now. You installed yours a year ago.

Designing a modular install that actually works properly is not as easy as it seems. Every single bracket went through multiple revisions before they were right. Little things can screw everything up and you have to start over. The tubing has to be placed just right or you can have cavitation of air bubbles in the fuel pump. And the list goes on. It can be installed either way, but the modular design is the only documented design that actually works.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I've only published the bracket drawings for a few days now. You installed yours a year ago.
...

It can be installed either way, but the modular design is the only documented design that actually works.

Yes, but who says you're the first one to think of doing it in one modular unit? I considered it too, I just was unsure of how to really make good brackets because I don't have means to do it at home.
...

Mine works. Byron's works. Igk's works. Scattcatt's works (until he had mechanical difficulty). diwhiteii's works. This one works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEsill-Yxss (she's a member here, I forget her username) There's many more.

Just because you're the only one with a 'documented design', doesn't mean it's the only method that works. You'll see a bigger improvement from adjusting your timing and fuel map than from installing the physical parts a certain way.

I'm not insulting your work. Like I said when you posted it, it's a nicely done job. I even took some points from your install; I'm using better EFI clamps, elbows and a T to replace parts I have now. I'm also going to replace all my fuel line and go to an air box because you've had such good luck with the air box on your install. I promise, I'm not insulting your work; I just don't think it's a necessity like you do because I know how well it works without all that extra time/money/work/hassle.

[n4mwd]

Well, thinking about climbing Mt. Everest and actually doing it are two different things. As far as I know, my modular design is the only one ever actually completed. I would like to have made it even more modular, but I wanted the average person to be able to do it without needing machining tools and such.

Everyone else who installed the kit did not have the video to go by. I just released it. So a quick and dirty rats nest install was the only way possible. Yes it works that way, but how many installs have had to be redone because something wasn't right? Loli and a certain frog I know for sure.

[EMSRacer07]

Originally Posted by Red250R

Ah alright. I guess we'll see what I decide to do once I get the kit and play around with it a bit myself

only thing i added was fuel shut off disconnects. But yeah give it a shot on the install and if you want to change stuff around you can.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Loli and a certain frog I know for sure.

Well Rick's bad install was because the PO was obviously not mechanically inclined and put every sensor in the wrong place and then sold the bike because he couldn't get it to run right. The only thing that's messy on mine is the wiring harness, thank you. Lets see your not-messy wiring harness.

The only reason this frog is redoing some stuff is because he wants 2 things: 1) the air box and 2) fuel cutoffs after the original fuel cutoffs leaked. The fuel line is being replaced because of discoloring. The supplied Y-junction is being replaced with a T-junction because the angles are annoying. That's a function of the kit and cheap cutoffs, not the install. Other than that, my install is just fine. The elbows are because I don't like bending fuel line around corners.

[Red250R]

I probably won't change too much around seeing as the way he did it works. No problems other than what he include in the addendum. I've been somewhat studying the way he did it and if it's not broken I'm not gunna fix it lol we'll see tho once I have everything in front of me. My only issue is the CNC machining of the brackets. I've emailed two people that I know have access to them. One works for the University of Buffalo and the other still works for my old high school as an engineering teacher. Been out of high school for almost 7 years now lol either one might be able to mill me up something n

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by choneofakind

Well Rick's bad install was because the PO was obviously not mechanically inclined and put every sensor in the wrong place and then sold the bike because he couldn't get it to run right.

His experience is the perfect example of why a proven modular install works best. He bought that bike reportedly from an electrical engineer. A guy who just started bolting parts on the bike and hoped it all worked. From what I hear, his install didn't work out that well and Loli had to spend a good bit of time fixing everything.

[choneofakind]

Very true. But not everyone has the ability to cheaply make brackets out of steel sheet either. Everyone has the ability to buy some fuel line, some elbows, a T, attach the sensors, and bolt the pump onto the battery box.

Besides, I've always told interested ninjetters to make sure they know what they're getting into and know the basics of how the FI parts work in the system. That's exactly why. The OP of Rick's bike clearly didn't understand what each part was doing, nor did he understand how to use procal and got frustrated and quit. I think prior knowledge is more important than having everyone do the install the same way.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by Red250R

My only issue is the CNC machining of the brackets. I've emailed two people that I know have access to them. One works for the University of Buffalo and the other still works for my old high school as an engineering teacher. Been out of high school for almost 7 years now lol either one might be able to mill me up something n

CNC milling? Where did you get that from? They are really easy to cut out by hand. It will take you about an hour max to make them.

The bracket drawings are 1:1 scale when printed. Just stick them to the aluminum (from the hardware store) and cut them out with tin snips. The aluminum is so thin that its probably possible to use a cheap throwaway pair of scissors. Once the flats are cut out, drill the holes. Then fold it in a vice or with sheet metal pliers. Then pop rivet it.

As far as parts for the build, your local hardware store is probably the best bet for most everything you need. Fittings, metals, clamps, etc. I was not able to find a single source for everything online.

One thing is that if you don't want a fuel test port, you can replace the Tee and close nipple with a street Ell.

Also, regarding the regulator bracket, when installing, make sure it doesn't touch the center linkage between the two throttle bodies. It shouldn't because I left enough space in the bracket, but if you missed cutting that out, then it could bind.

I left making the brackets out of the video because its too simple. A pair of sheet metal pliers makes it easier though. If enough people complain, I might make another video showing exactly how the brackets are made.

[choneofakind]

Well, I'm still going to stick with my method because it works just fine. I'm more worried about getting my mix perfected.

[n4mwd]

Since you are redoing everything, why not go modular?

I can help you with the brackets if that is an issue.

[Red250R]

Ah. I don't know where I got CNC milling from lol I guess the CAD-like drawings that you made up made me believe they were CNC milled. That makes it all much simpler lol

[drphils87]

Does anybody here let their bike warm up before riding? Why is it necessary to warm up the bike before riding? I know I've almost laid over while do a uie out of a parking space because my bike stalled, but that won't happen anymore after it is installed. I just learned about shimming after signing up for the kit. I'm still excited about the kit, but I kind of want to see how much better it runs with it shimmed. My bike is horrible, it won't stay running even with the choke on while I aggressively pump the throttle. It dies 10 ten times before I can get it to run. This is in 50 degree weather. I don't even bother trying at 30 degrees, but who want to ride then anyway. Not that I have a choice since this is the only vehicle I have. I just carpool when the weather is bad.

[lgk]

Originally Posted by drphils87

Does anybody here let their bike warm up before riding? Why is it necessary to warm up the bike before riding? I know I've almost laid over while do a uie out of a parking space because my bike stalled, but that won't happen anymore after it is installed. I just learned about shimming after signing up for the kit. I'm still excited about the kit, but I kind of want to see how much better it runs with it shimmed. My bike is horrible, it won't stay running even with the choke on while I aggressively pump the throttle. It dies 10 ten times before I can get it to run. This is in 50 degree weather. I don't even bother trying at 30 degrees, but who want to ride then anyway. Not that I have a choice since this is the only vehicle I have. I just carpool when the weather is bad.

My bike ran fine with carbs at 17 degrees.
either its jetted wrong or the carbs need cleaned.

[choneofakind]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Since you are redoing everything, why not go modular?

I can help you with the brackets if that is an issue.

Because I don't feel it's necessary. Thanks for the offer though.

Originally Posted by drphils87

Does anybody here let their bike warm up before riding? Why is it necessary to warm up the bike before riding? I know I've almost laid over while do a uie out of a parking space because my bike stalled, but that won't happen anymore after it is installed. I just learned about shimming after signing up for the kit. I'm still excited about the kit, but I kind of want to see how much better it runs with it shimmed. My bike is horrible, it won't stay running even with the choke on while I aggressively pump the throttle. It dies 10 ten times before I can get it to run. This is in 50 degree weather. I don't even bother trying at 30 degrees, but who want to ride then anyway. Not that I have a choice since this is the only vehicle I have. I just carpool when the weather is bad.

I let it warm up just long enough (a minute or two. Long enough to double check my gear and whatnot) to accept throttle, then I ride off with the choke on (when I had carbs) until the temp gauge showed warm, and then is shut off the choke and continued riding normally.

Shimming does nothing for warming up while idling. Shimming helps with mid-throttle fuel delivery (which can help warm-up times if you warm it up while riding). Use necessary choke to keep the warm-up idle speed around 2000-2500 rpm. Back off the choke as the idle starts shooting up (as the engine warms) but don't turn it off completely. Use just enough to keep the idle between 2000 and 2500 at all times. Contrary to popular belief, using choke during start/warm-up is not a bad thing. Slip the clutch a little more to guarantee smooth starts/stops, and keep the rpm's under about 7k until it's warm.

If you have trouble starting cold, uncap the mixture screws, and turn them out just a bit. They should be out a total of 2-2.5 turns.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by drphils87

Does anybody here let their bike warm up before riding? Why is it necessary to warm up the bike before riding? I know I've almost laid over while do a uie out of a parking space because my bike stalled, but that won't happen anymore after it is installed. I just learned about shimming after signing up for the kit. I'm still excited about the kit, but I kind of want to see how much better it runs with it shimmed. My bike is horrible, it won't stay running even with the choke on while I aggressively pump the throttle. It dies 10 ten times before I can get it to run. This is in 50 degree weather. I don't even bother trying at 30 degrees, but who want to ride then anyway. Not that I have a choice since this is the only vehicle I have. I just carpool when the weather is bad.

Your carbs are messed up. The EFI kit should fix that. I've started mine in 40F weather and it just starts right up and eerily runs at a steady 1500. It just takes some getting used to when you are used to fighting with carbs. But that said, you should still let it run a minute or two and let it warm up before you ride off . This helps with friction and lubrication and is better for the engine.

[drphils87]

Originally Posted by lgk

My bike ran fine with carbs at 17 degrees.
either its jetted wrong or the carbs need cleaned.

The bike only has 6k miles on it, so it couldn't get dirty inside that quick. Idk I can't wait to take it apart to see if it's dirty at all and compare it with my honda rebel carburator. I no longer have that bike fyi.

Originally Posted by choneofakind

I let it warm up just long enough (a minute or two. Long enough to double check my gear and whatnot) to accept throttle, then I ride off with the choke on (when I had carbs) until the temp gauge showed warm, and then is shut off the choke and continued riding normally.

Shimming does nothing for warming up while idling. Shimming helps with mid-throttle fuel delivery (which can help warm-up times if you warm it up while riding). Use necessary choke to keep the warm-up idle speed around 2000-2500 rpm. Back off the choke as the idle starts shooting up (as the engine warms) but don't turn it off completely. Use just enough to keep the idle between 2000 and 2500 at all times. Contrary to popular belief, using choke during start/warm-up is not a bad thing. Slip the clutch a little more to guarantee smooth starts/stops, and keep the rpm's under about 7k until it's warm.

If you have trouble starting cold, uncap the mixture screws, and turn them out just a bit. They should be out a total of 2-2.5 turns.

That's almost exactly what I do when I finally get it to start, but thats my main problem is getting it to start. I'll readjust the screws when I have to fairings off before I install the kit just to see how much better it starts. How many screws are there? They all come out 2 to 2.5 turns? Does it matter that its a newgen? It actually doesn't stall when I'm riding while the choke is on, but I did slip the clutch a lot when I had the rebel. The rebel did the opposite of this bike. It would start right up, but stall when I tried to take off.

Originally Posted by n4mwd

Your carbs are messed up. The EFI kit should fix that. I've started mine in 40F weather and it just starts right up and eerily runs at a steady 1500. It just takes some getting used to when you are used to fighting with carbs. But that said, you should still let it run a minute or two and let it warm up before you ride off . This helps with friction and lubrication and is better for the engine.

Car engines take less than 30 seconds to circulate oil; do motorcycle engines take longer? Do you think adjusting the mixture screws will get it to start easier? Just for shits a giggles of course since I'm getting the efi kit. Yeah I'm definately use to and over dealing with carbs.

[n4mwd]

I was always told that all motor vehicles should be allowed to warm up before you do any serious driving with them. Cars, boats, motorcycles, lawnmowers, carb, efi, everything. The oil is going through the ninja in less than 5 seconds, but its cold and not optimal. The parts are different sizes at different temperatures. The ninja crank journal tolerance is measured in microns. Very high tolerance. Its just much happier when its warm. The reason I am told that an engine needs choke (more gas) is to overcome the higher friction when its cold.

In your case, you clearly have some plugged jets. The idle jets most likely. And yes, if a bike sits with gas in the carb bowls without being ridden for very long, it will get clogs in the jets. After you get your EFI going, you can pull it apart and clean it at your leisure.

[choneofakind]

Definitely check the carbs to make sure they're clean before tinkering with them at all.

But that is for another thread. Sorry for getting OT D.

[drphils87]

Have you gotten any comments on your video from ecotrons?

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by drphils87

Have you gotten any comments on your video from ecotrons?

not that I know of.

[mgithens]

Originally Posted by n4mwd

I was always told that all motor vehicles should be allowed to warm up before you do any serious driving with them. Cars, boats, motorcycles, lawnmowers, carb, efi, everything. The oil is going through the ninja in less than 5 seconds, but its cold and not optimal. The parts are different sizes at different temperatures. The ninja crank journal tolerance is measured in microns. Very high tolerance. Its just much happier when its warm. The reason I am told that an engine needs choke (more gas) is to overcome the higher friction when its cold.

I used to think that way too, but the logic explained by a 40 year motorhead was that if you idle, then you are making very little heat. So the engine will spin and spin and cold oil does very little to help. If you drive the engine, you are putting more fuel into the cylinder and if RPMs are held low you are making tons more heat, so warmup will be much faster.

Simply revving an engine does very little to warm it up, since you are flowing so much more air thru the cylinders it is taking away the vast majority of the extra fuel you have burned.

[drphils87]

Is it possible for the pump to cavitate while leaning for a certain period of time since the pump inlet might dip a little lower than the outlet? This fuel pump is worrying the hell out of me I wish it was like a car's pump. Should I just get the inlet as high as possible just stick with the modular design or both?

Btw my local hardware store doesn't have **** in their store. no gasket maker, barbed elbows, or nipples. gotta wait another week before even starting the first part of install. That and the weather sucks over here.

[choneofakind]

That's why the inlet is higher than the outlet. So the bubbles can rise. I made mine so the outlet is just barely under the horizontal when the bike is on the side stand.

[Red250R]

Originally Posted by drphils87

Is it possible for the pump to cavitate while leaning for a certain period of time since the pump inlet might dip a little lower than the outlet? This fuel pump is worrying the hell out of me I wish it was like a car's pump. Should I just get the inlet as high as possible just stick with the modular design or both?

Btw my local hardware store doesn't have **** in their store. no gasket maker, barbed elbows, or nipples. gotta wait another week before even starting the first part of install. That and the weather sucks over here.

You and me both lol my local stores had damn near nothing that was on that list. Checked about 5 different stores. I was able to find about half of the stuff on the list but the other half I ordered online. No biggie. I'm kind of adjusting the way the pump is held on by using a couple things from work. Either way it'll be the same basic idea.

[drphils87]

So do the bigger bikes with fuel injection have this same set up where the pump is outside the tank or are they actually inside the tank like automobiles.

I just don't want to stall out while making a fast sharp turn and loose a limb.

red250r, so you didn't get that bracket with what looks like rubber padding for the fuel pumop either? I thought I just lost my because I have a bad habit of getting excited when I open a package and throwing eeverything everywhere and loosing ****.

Btw I think I'm just going to make a bracket that wraps around the pump, then cut out three of those other bracket for the pump and rtv them together becaude there is no way I am going to spend 20 bucks on a 4' piece of angle and only use an inch of it.

[choneofakind]

Idk about other fuel injected bikes. I've never taken one apart.

But you won't stall out around turns.

[Red250R]

Originally Posted by drphils87

red250r, so you didn't get that bracket with what looks like rubber padding for the fuel pumop either? I thought I just lost my because I have a bad habit of getting excited when I open a package and throwing eeverything everywhere and loosing ****.

Btw I think I'm just going to make a bracket that wraps around the pump, then cut out three of those other bracket for the pump and rtv them together becaude there is no way I am going to spend 20 bucks on a 4' piece of angle and only use an inch of it.

No that part isn't supposed to come with the kit. I work construction so I did a little shopping on our material shelves at work. I may try using a minerallac conduit hanger on the pump and modify a unistrut strap instead of the angle bracket. My only issue is we only have steel material on our job. No aluminum or stainless so I have to spray them with some rust proof paint or perhaps if I can get my hands on some rigid Plastibond dip then I can do that. Plenty of time to play around with some ideas. Just got my fuel filter in the mail today so I can move forward tomorrow.

[n4mwd]

Originally Posted by drphils87

So do the bigger bikes with fuel injection have this same set up where the pump is outside the tank or are they actually inside the tank like automobiles.

I just don't want to stall out while making a fast sharp turn and loose a limb.

red250r, so you didn't get that bracket with what looks like rubber padding for the fuel pumop either? I thought I just lost my because I have a bad habit of getting excited when I open a package and throwing eeverything everywhere and loosing ****.

Btw I think I'm just going to make a bracket that wraps around the pump, then cut out three of those other bracket for the pump and rtv them together becaude there is no way I am going to spend 20 bucks on a 4' piece of angle and only use an inch of it.

The wrap around bracket for the fuel pump that came with the last group buy kit is available in some auto parts stores. I don't know exactly what is in the new kit. For the fuel pump angle bracket, you can use aluminum or steel angle to make the bracket. Or, in a pinch, you could get some stiff 1" wide steel builder's tie down strap at Home Depot and just bend it in a 90. You want it stiff enough that the pump doesn't fall down and hit the terminal on the starter. The terminal is covered in rubber, but you don't want it hitting that.

The hardware store I use that seems to have most everything is an independent True Value store. @choneofakind also found some inexpensive stainless steel fuel fittings at a beverage supply place. You might have stores like that in your local area.

Regarding the OEM placement of fuel pumps on bikes, they go in the tank and usually incorporate the regulator and everything so the only thing that usually comes out is the fuel line. They use a dead end fuel rail approach for simplicity, but they can suffer cavitation issues because of that too.

Has the fuel rail changed any in the new kit?

[Red250R]

No the fuel rail is the exact same. @drphils87 here's how I may approach clamping mine down.

[n4mwd]

I'm surprised that these weren't included with the kit this time. They came with the last one. Maybe ask Matt if he forgot to include them.

If you have a NAPA store near you, you might check these out:

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/Ca...144_0146597141

[Red250R]

Yeah that definitely wasn't included in the kit.

[n4mwd]

Based on what Matt said about the new pump, I think you guys need to be extra careful when routing the inlet side of the pump. According to Matt, my original assumption, that the bubbles are ejected on the high pressure side, was incorrect. Since the bubbles are ejected against the flow of the gasoline on the inlet, care needs to be taken to ensure that the inlet tubing has a constant upwards slope back to the tank.

Because of this difference, I'm thinking a better approach than the way I did it in the video would be to install the filter as close to the tank as possible and then run the hose under the intake tubes and then around to the inlet of the pump.

If you install he filter like in the video, make sure that its not tilted downward with the fuel pump. It should go flat across.

As always, the pump outlet still needs to be lower than the inlet.

[choneofakind]

Yeah, I want to see how the new pump works before I comment on it. I'm not sure about it.

[curioussavage]

after watching the install video I learned my bike is a california bike. I had no idea (i live in salt lake city, ut) im assuming that might be partly why it runs like crap???? anyways i have barely used any forum at all and have a hard time searching them. is there a thread about how to install the kit on a california bike? or how is it different with the petcock??