April 6th, 2016, 10:02 AM | #1 |
ninjette.org member
Name: TONY
Location: JACKSONVILLE, FL
Join Date: Jan 2016 Motorcycle(s): 2005 V-STROM 1000 Posts: 24
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Intermittent Brake Seizing
After getting the bike running, my buddy has bout about 650 mile son the bike. However he is having intermittent front brake seizing, basically the caliper is locking onto the disk. It will happen sometimes overnight: he will come out and the front wheel is locked. Other times it will be while he is riding. The font starts to drag to the point he just starts slowing down. Once stopped, the wheel is locked, you can't even push it. Again, its intermittent. Some days its fine. After a lockup, he would squeeze the brake lever and open the caliper bleeder valve to relieve pressure. It will work fine after that. Then, some time later (1 or more days) it will lock up again
I assumed water or some other contaminant in the line. I have flushed all the brake fluid and replaced with fresh DOT4. Still having the issue. I then took the caliper off cleaned the pistons and seals. Still the problem persists. My next step is to rebuild MC and caliper, but I wanted to check in here. Has anyone heard of this before? Any suggestions? |
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April 6th, 2016, 10:07 AM | #2 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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I am guessing you have some air trapped around/near the top banjo bolt. Take off the master and turn it upside down and bleed again.
I have a zxg6 doing the same crap, but I haven't dug into it yet. Maybe we can help each other if we find the problem.
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April 6th, 2016, 10:14 AM | #3 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: TONY
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Quote:
That's not to say its not still a possibility. I will definitely check again. |
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April 6th, 2016, 10:16 AM | #4 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
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ahh... well, I will be watching for what fixes your problem then.
zxg6?!?!?! I meant zx6r. lol
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April 6th, 2016, 10:21 AM | #5 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
Location: Towson, MD
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Have you checked the front alignment? forks aren't bent at all to cause undue drag from the pads on the rotor?
My first thought was the caliper but if that's been rebuilt already then its likely not the issue. It's likely to be the master cylinder at this point, I'd also check the brake lines for any minor leaks
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April 6th, 2016, 10:30 AM | #6 | |
ninjette.org member
Name: TONY
Location: JACKSONVILLE, FL
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Quote:
What about the line? Could it be swelling for some reason, causing fluid to be pushed out into the caliper? |
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April 6th, 2016, 10:39 AM | #7 |
Private Joker
Name: Ben
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A full rebuild kit for the caliper may be the solution
as for the line, its possible that it could have cracks that only show when it expands under use allowing small amounts of air into the lines. You'd be able to see this with your eyes while its sitting so if it looks good it probably is. I've had that issue with a rear line that melted on the exhaust a bit and let air into the system
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April 6th, 2016, 02:44 PM | #8 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
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DO you have aftermarket levers on this bike?
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April 6th, 2016, 03:25 PM | #9 |
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April 6th, 2016, 03:40 PM | #10 |
Vintage Screwball
Name: B
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SNap. I know there are issues with aftermarket levers holding slight pressure on the master cylinder. This doesn't allow all the fluid to come back in and locks up the brakes.
Might be worth having a look at the lever anyway to be sure it is releasing the master cylinder piston all the way.
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April 6th, 2016, 03:45 PM | #11 | |||
in your machine
Name: Scott
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Write-up time
I recommend that every time you change your pads, you service the calipers, he's my write-up to help you out. It should fix your initial problem, and keep your calipers in top working order. Quote:
I also recommend flush and fill with new brake fluid, also I'd go with 5.1DOT This is the one I use https://m.motul.com/ca/en-us/product...-1-brake-fluid Also inspect the brake lines, replace is needed, http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/Stainle..._lines_upgrade Quote:
On my 91 EX500 I have Spiegler, in orange to match that bike. Quote:
When it comes to safety items like brakes, when in doubt, throw them out, it's your safety in your hands, and is cheaper than a visit to the ER. Buy quality pads,I personally recommend EBC brand either the HH, or the Extreme HH. EBC full floating rotor, replace the OEM rubber line with a stainless steel braided brake line, cheaper than replacing them with OEM. On my 500 I have Spiegler line http://www.spieglerusa.com/brakes/cy...line-kits.html On my Ninja 250 i went with Venhill http://www.venhillusa.com/products.html With all that, it will stop on a dime, and leave you nine cents in change. look here http://ebcbrakes.com/products/motorcycle/ And also read this, http://www.ex-500.com/wiki/index.php...otors_and_Pads That should answer any questions you might have.
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April 6th, 2016, 07:54 PM | #12 | |
Daily Ninjette rider
Name: Hernan
Location: Florida
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Quote:
When pressing on the MC's cylinder, there is a volume of fluid trapped inside the system (among the small piston in the MC and the bigger pistons in the caliper). Case 1: Heat is transferred into the fluid. If it is pure fluid, that heat makes that volume grows, but not enough to be noticed. If the fluid contains humidity, that heat makes that tiny amount of water become steam and the volume of that water grows about 1600 times. That clamps any pad for as long as the temperature of the fluid+steam remains high enough. Case 2: The relief orifice (compensating port) in the MC is dirty/clogged and/or the return spring is broken/weaken. In both cases, the problem does not allow part of the fluid trapped among the small piston in the MC and the bigger pistons in the caliper to normally return back to the container (compensating for any variation of volume due to temperature), reducing the volume and pressure inside the caliper enough to release pad's pressure over the disc. Any deformation of the hose under pressure would have the opposite effect: it becomes harder to clamp/lock the pads. Click on Theory Video and on Animation: http://search.lv2014.integr8cms.net/...aster-cylinder
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April 6th, 2016, 07:57 PM | #13 |
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This is what I came to say after thinking about it a little bit.
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April 6th, 2016, 08:07 PM | #14 |
n00bie to wannabie
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
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It has to be master cylinder.
"It's seized in the morning": the only possible way it can be seized in the morning is if it was seized at night or the rider applied the brake in the morning (common practice for many and should be for all to give the brakes a few pumps to confirm they are fully operational). If the brake seizes and won't release but does when bled then it has to be the master cylinder. All symptoms described except the impossible "it seized overnight" describe a master cylinder issue. Sorry, curt & brevity because I'm madly hammering this out on my phone and my thumbs are sore!
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April 6th, 2016, 11:40 PM | #15 |
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Name: Jon
Location: Pittsburgh
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Wow what a well timed thread, wrecked 2 nights ago from this.
I've been having intermittent dragging issues on my front caliper since about February. When it started, I naturally, bled the brakes and changed the fluid. This fixed the problem briefly, but it returned shortly after all was well though, and I rode just being cautious with the front brake, and honestly using the rear excessively. Now about 2 weeks ago I swapped my master cylinder for a brand new one, and the issue got much better but was still there sometimes.
Now the fun bit, 4/5 I was at a car meet, leaving, touched my front brakes, and they just locked hard around 15mph, I low sided and was more or less unscathed. Bike not so lucky. So I've torn the bike apart to fix everything, taken my caliper apart, 2 week old master cylinder is trashed, and I threw away my 12 year old brake hose. My bike has ~25k mi on it, yes it was dumb to not replace all that **** earlier, but moving on I just wanna guarantee everything functions when it goes back together. I have a few questions. 1. The bike was roll-able after I picked it up, but after 10 minutes of sitting my front wheel wouldn't even rotate, tire just dragged. Does this provide me any info as to why the caliper locked? I don't think it was input error on my part. 2. New master cylinder, SS brake hose, new rotor, and caliper rebuild should mean this won't happen again? 3. Clutch cover is scraped, and sight glass broke, should I replace the whole cover or just the glass? It's scratched right on top of the actuator arm bit of the casing. 4. I just measured my front rotor and it's 4.25mm thick, the under-spec rotor couldn't have caused this right? ETA: Sorry for threadjacking |
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April 7th, 2016, 05:34 AM | #16 |
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OP....there exists a relief port (bleed back) in the master cylinder... def need to examine, possibly cleanout
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April 7th, 2016, 08:28 AM | #17 |
ninjette.org member
Name: TONY
Location: JACKSONVILLE, FL
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Now that it is mentioned, it would not surprise me to find that MC relief port was clogged. The fluid was exceptionally bad when I flushed it the first time. I had began to solidify in the reservoir.
I think I will disconnect, clean and reassemble |
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April 7th, 2016, 08:34 AM | #18 |
The Corner Whisperer
Name: Chris (aka Reactor)
Location: Northern KY
Join Date: May 2011 Motorcycle(s): 2010 250 (track), 1992 250, 2006 R6 (street/track), 2008 R6 (track) Posts: Too much.
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That is a bummer Jon, hope everything goes well.
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April 7th, 2016, 09:47 AM | #19 |
n00bie to wannabie
Name: Bill
Location: St Ives, BC (Shuswap Lake)
Join Date: Sep 2015 Motorcycle(s): 2012 250R (Red), 2005 VFR800A (Red), CRF450X (Red), 2012 F800GS (Wants to be Red!) Posts: A lot.
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There's always a silver lining: through your experience and posting up here; you learn and others benefit from your experience too! You'll have a good idea of what is the problem and how to fix it as will others when these symptoms occur again or to someone else.
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The Smart Money: #1 - ATGATT, #2 - Training (machine skills and survival skills), #3 - The bike; whatever floats yer boat with the money you have left over |
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April 7th, 2016, 09:50 AM | #20 |
in your machine
Name: Scott
Location: Summer Shade, Ky.
Join Date: Oct 2014 Motorcycle(s): 98 Ninja 250/F12 aka ZX-2R "SERENITY", 91 Ninja 500/A5 aka ZX-5R "Phoenix", 84 Honda GL1200A "SIREN" Posts: A lot.
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As long as your in the neighborhood, address the caliper as well, don't forget the slider pins as well, also check the rear too.
Don't take any changes with brakes.
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April 10th, 2016, 01:00 AM | #21 |
ninjette.org guru
Name: Chris
Location: Bristol, UK
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So the brakes were full of congealed fluid & you just bled them right ? Well there your problem. Brake fluid will ONLY congeal in the presence of contamination which is usuall water ! Water causes corrosion of the other components especially allow, this will lead to corrosion solids in the brake system that will NOT be forced out with a bleed, because the bleed hole is to small & the caliper will still be full of congealed fluid, unless it was stripped & cleaned.
Even if you change your fluid regularly at the 2 year interval recommended by most manufacturers, the caliper will always remain filled with old fluid, unless you take the caliper off the bike & remove the bleed nipple, allow fluid to drain from the hose & M/C then invert the caliper & press the pistons fully in to expel all the old fluid. Mount back to bike loosely replace bleed nipple & bleed like a new dry system. When rebuilding calipers or M/C you do NOT need to change the seals if the they & the system are in good condition. If there is contamination always replace all seals after a thorough clean of the metal components. Hope that helps. I know it's a PITA job, but good performance & your life could depend on it ! |
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