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Old January 10th, 2018, 10:51 AM   #1
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How loading the rear (via roll-on) affects the bike

TL;DR summary:

Let's discuss how being more assertive with the throttle affects the bike... benefits/hazards and getting past the fear of highsides.
-----------------------------

One of my 2018 resolutions is to revisit my track education in light of what I've learned over the last year. That includes re-reading TOTW II and thinking a lot about how it maps to my experience. This exercise has got me thinking about having greater faith in grip levels and what I can do to get more comfortable out there.

One of my biggest challenges is timidity. More than anything else I fear losing the rear, highsiding and sailing off into the wild blue like Superman.

In practice it means my roll-on is slower and weaker than it should be. It's a very real mental block, related to the "finding the edge" discussions we've had here.

I don't have a specific question in mind, but I'd like to spark a discussion about this. I'm thinking that there's a lot more of a traction margin than I believe there to be, especially in the rear tire.

I say this because my rear -- a Pirelli SC2 slick -- is still in fine shape even after a WHOLE SEASON at modest intermediate pace (~7-8 track days in the middle of the TTD yellow group; groups are black-blue-yellow-red, fast to slow). That has to be evidence of something...most likely that I'm babying the throttle too much (right?).

So if I can move past my fear of corner grip shortcomings and get it on more assertively, what can I expect?

Speculation:

- More feeling of stability and a more settled chassis because the bike "likes" to be accelerating through the turn (throttle rule 1). Thinking that the bike will feel more planted, not less, because more load is going into the rear, where most of the rubber is. Fear of spinning the rear up and losing it is keeping me from feeling this, I think....

- Smoother flow because the bike is carrying more speed through the corner; less need to climb up out of a bucket. (I recently saw a video of a TTD instructor lapping Palmer in the 1:42 range, which is darned quick -- it's in the NE Trackday thread. The bike stays up on song most of the lap, which gives an overall impression of greater smoothness.)

Discuss. Thanks!

@Misti @csmith12 @Ducati999
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Old January 10th, 2018, 11:06 AM   #2
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on the 300 i feel the opposite, the bike likes to turn on the front, feels squirlly riding the rear. agree im working on a more agressive roll on my self, little by little i get there, im alot better than i was last year
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Old January 10th, 2018, 11:11 AM   #3
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But... what would happen if you transferred weight to the rear with more throttle? More rubber on the road, more traction, less squirrelyness, right? That's what I'm thinking. Getting more weight onto the rear through acceleration delivers increased grip, right up to the point where it starts to spin up.

This of course applies only to the part of the turn AFTER you crack the throttle open, not to initial turn-in.

Kind of the reverse of loading the front before braking hard. You're putting more weight onto that end of the bike and as a result, increasing traction.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 11:16 AM   #4
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i agree, where i feel the squirls is in the long sweepers, i need to be up on the tank. all other turns , i agree with you, last year in the mornings i was spinning up the rear in the hard slow 90+ deg turns. should have shifted weight to the rear ?, was not a problem once the track heated up
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Old January 10th, 2018, 11:23 AM   #5
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Yeah, I hear you. Those "moments" freak you out. But if you're actually spinning up the rear, more throttle at that point is not likely to end well, yes?

Could it be that it's spinning because of TOO rapid/aggressive throttle application?

Or cooked tires?

Or the Ninjette's relatively crude suspension?
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Old January 10th, 2018, 06:30 PM   #6
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Depends on the power out put of the bike. possibility of high siding is very low with the ultralight weight bikes(bikes for this forum). Many times going around the track faster is all about being comfortable with the bike moving around under you. Back on point, the low displacement bikes are more about maintaining corner speed while the throttle is wide open as there is not much change in power. With that in mind the bike is less likely to spin up on you. Now when it comes to more power, then you will have to be smoother on the throttle, slower with the wrist.
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Old January 10th, 2018, 07:24 PM   #7
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Awesome question and at the core of high-performance riding.

Let's start with the core of the technique (skill of it) and then branch out from there. In the TOTW II, you know that a smooth 5th gear roll on is enough to maximize traction (contact patch) and give you working suspension in the acceptable ranges. Aka, the throttle brings it all together.

At the 50k foot view of things, you are actually answering your own question as you clarify the question with a little bit of your further comments.

Let's state some general working throttle techniques on your r6.

1. you come down straight (pinned)
2. roll off throttle (and apply braking)
2a = ?
3. 0 throttle at turn in point (steering)
4. begin throttle roll - (after steering completed)
4a = ?
5. roll on harder as the bike is picked up or pick up early and roll harder (corner exit)

Stuff you already know, but what is 2a 4a and what do they have to do with each other?
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Old January 11th, 2018, 05:57 AM   #8
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Hmmmm... not really sure where you're going here, but given the context I'd say that 2a and 4a are both something like "roll off/roll on smoothly -- no sudden moves."

By progressively loading the tire, you increase contact patch without the sudden loss of traction that could happen if you chop/apply the throttle suddenly.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 06:07 AM   #9
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BTW, that 5th gear roll-on thing from TOTW II... very few corners I've encountered actually require such a thing, at least at the speeds I ride. If I'm cornering in 5th it's because the corner is really just a kink in a long straight. But I get that it's more for illustrative purposes, to highlight the relatively gentle nature of the acceleration that's called for.

One thing I have found is that taking some corners in a higher gear than seems right is a lot smoother. T1 at Palmer, for example. The cone chicane is right after it, so you'd think it's a second-gear corner. But if I take it in 3rd and use momentum to carry me through the cones, the bike is far more settled... the acceleration as I roll on is smoother. Net result: More confidence in getting it on.

BTW that vid I referred to above is Paul Duval at the same track. Count the gear changes... he's going through Turn 1 in 4th, downshifting to 3rd for the Turn 4/5 esses and staying in 3rd for the rest of the lap until the front straight. I confirmed this by asking him on FB. This parallels the strategy I've been using, but I'm one gear lower (and probably 30 seconds a lap slower!).

Link to original page on YouTube.

What I'm taking away from this video is that there really is a hell of a lot of grip to be had, if I can just get my reptilian brain to accept that fact.

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Old January 11th, 2018, 06:25 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
BTW, that 5th gear roll-on thing from TOTW II... very few corners I've encountered actually require such a thing, at least at the speeds I ride. If I'm cornering in 5th it's because the corner is really just a kink in a long straight. But I get that it's more for illustrative purposes, to highlight the relatively gentle nature of the acceleration that's called for.
SPOT ON!

Well, 2a is finalizing your entry speed and 4a is a smooth continuous roll throughout the remainder of the turn.

What do they have to do with each other?
A common issue riders have is to overbrake for a corner or become complacent with their current comfort level. An easy fix for that rider of a bigger bike is to make it up with the throttle midcorner and on exit. You noticed that Ken doesn't do that and I am not saying you overbrake either. It's just an easy example to show relevance.

So how aggressive does his throttle roll NEED to be? If you get your entry speed perfect how aggressive with the throttle do you NEED to be?
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Old January 11th, 2018, 06:34 AM   #11
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Okay... so...

Getting the entry speed right (not too slow) means you have less ground to make up (speedwise), so your roll-on can be less aggressive. Paul's video shows this.

Overcooking the entry means you wind up too slow anyway, because you have to haul it way down to stay on the track. You lose momentum. Same result as too slow to begin with.

But... you still want to load that rear tire to get it working for you, right? So you don't have to be AS aggressive, but you still want to get it on, yes?
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Old January 11th, 2018, 06:45 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
But... you still want to load that rear tire to get it working for you, right? So you don't have to be AS aggressive, but you still want to get it on, yes?
Of course you want to...

Now, lets refocus one of your questions with new context. "I am concervative about rolling on the throttle too hard mid corner." Yea... you should be, it's a clue that something else can be improved upon. Turn in point, braking, line or entry speed. Your #1 goal while riding, especially with bigger lean angles is to "keep the bike stable" and the throttle is the main method of establishing that stability. Too little is not good, too much is not good either.

So instead of pushing your limits with traction, have a good look at your actions before the turn. Once you are sure about those, then look at the exit.

At what part of the turn can be the throttle be rolled more aggressively, while AT THE SAME TIME reduce your risk of washing out the rear?
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Old January 11th, 2018, 07:13 AM   #13
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I'm nowhere near the limits of traction (I think). I'm all 'fraidy-scared to go there.... or have been. Every time out I'm gaining a little more confidence.

When I have a "moment" it's generally under braking. Doesn't happen under throttle. In fact, the first time at Palmer I had a moment climbing up through Turn 5... the bike felt like it wanted to fall into the turn, which I diagnose as utter failure to get on the power.

To your point... too little is as bad as too much. Typical turn for me (think the right-hand bowl at Palmer) is "Can I roll on? Can I? Can I? I guess so...." rather than "Okay, you're good. Now go!" I hesitate because I'm not sure.

So in that zone between too little and too much, if anything I'm on the too-little end of it.

To answer the question: As you're picking the bike up -- removing lean angle.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 07:43 AM   #14
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long left turn, i have a great turn in , great roll speed thru apex but to timid on exit. instructor said i need to get on it harder on the exit. not capitalizing on the speed im carrying thru the corner; it has oped my eyes, i thought the smooth roll on was slow and smooth.like driving on ice, ive the rate of throttle application, still smooth. my timres are a lot better. as i have taken this to other corners.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 08:54 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
TL;DR summary:

Let's discuss how being more assertive with the throttle affects the bike... benefits/hazards and getting past the fear of highsides.
-----------------------------

One of my 2018 resolutions is to revisit my track education in light of what I've learned over the last year. That includes re-reading TOTW II and thinking a lot about how it maps to my experience. This exercise has got me thinking about having greater faith in grip levels and what I can do to get more comfortable out there.

One of my biggest challenges is timidity. More than anything else I fear losing the rear, highsiding and sailing off into the wild blue like Superman.

In practice it means my roll-on is slower and weaker than it should be. It's a very real mental block, related to the "finding the edge" discussions we've had here.

I don't have a specific question in mind, but I'd like to spark a discussion about this. I'm thinking that there's a lot more of a traction margin than I believe there to be, especially in the rear tire.

I say this because my rear -- a Pirelli SC2 slick -- is still in fine shape even after a WHOLE SEASON at modest intermediate pace (~7-8 track days in the middle of the TTD yellow group; groups are black-blue-yellow-red, fast to slow). That has to be evidence of something...most likely that I'm babying the throttle too much (right?).

So if I can move past my fear of corner grip shortcomings and get it on more assertively, what can I expect?

Speculation:

- More feeling of stability and a more settled chassis because the bike "likes" to be accelerating through the turn (throttle rule 1). Thinking that the bike will feel more planted, not less, because more load is going into the rear, where most of the rubber is. Fear of spinning the rear up and losing it is keeping me from feeling this, I think....

- Smoother flow because the bike is carrying more speed through the corner; less need to climb up out of a bucket. (I recently saw a video of a TTD instructor lapping Palmer in the 1:42 range, which is darned quick -- it's in the NE Trackday thread. The bike stays up on song most of the lap, which gives an overall impression of greater smoothness.)

Discuss. Thanks!

@Misti @csmith12 @Ducati999
I think that was Kenny Roberts early secret to success. He applied his dirt track experience to road racing - heavy throttle on a corner exit.

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Old January 11th, 2018, 10:08 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by jrshooter View Post
i thought the smooth roll on was slow and smooth.like driving on ice, ive the rate of throttle application, still smooth.
That's a great way of putting it. Since I live in the Northeast I have a lot of experience with winter driving and now that I think about it, there's a lot of similarity to what I've been doing.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 10:42 AM   #17
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I also scoot rearwards on seat coming out of corners.
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Old January 11th, 2018, 01:05 PM   #18
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Not much to add though I am enjoying the discussion very much. I too am timid through this the turns and overly aggressive on the brakes. To cure myself of that, I’m going to learn to ride flat track this year and maybe even race it too. It worked for Kenny, why not me too!
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Old January 11th, 2018, 01:12 PM   #19
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Not much to add though I am enjoying the discussion very much.
One of the best things about this forum is that we have discussions like this. I learn a hell of a lot here. There's a wealth of knowledge from true professionals and they're very responsive.

Sure beats the fetid swamp atmosphere of most sportbike forums....
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Old January 11th, 2018, 04:35 PM   #20
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Long post coming.... to kinda recap and make sure things don't get to far off course.
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Old January 12th, 2018, 11:33 AM   #21
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Andrew,
I have less experience than you except one place and it may help. Look at the video of my crash, You can hear how aggressive I was with the throttle and also how abrupt I rolled on! That should give you some idea of how much load the tire can take. I was leaned over quite far and moving about the same speed you do thru the same line/turn. Like you said before there is quite a bit more grip than you think as long as you apply power slowly (slower than I did) and smoother (than I did!). You should realize that you can add quite a bit more acceleration that you are at that same point and then apply that to other turns.

Also about your fear of high side crashes. Should you ever break free the rear like I did, there is little fear of the high end crash as long as you stay on the throttle. Chopping the throttle will allow the tire to hook back up and that's where the energy of the high side comes from, stay on the power and you will just fall 2 ft and slide where your gear will protect you!
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Old January 12th, 2018, 01:03 PM   #22
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Ant, you're on the throttle a lot more than I am already. Tires don't lie... yours are a lot more shredded than mine, and it's not just because you ride a 999. I can hang with you in a lot of corners, but you're on it sooner/harder and before your power advantage kicks in you're already pulling a gap on me.

This year will be interesting.... see you in May.
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Old January 14th, 2018, 09:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
TL;DR summary:

Let's discuss how being more assertive with the throttle affects the bike... benefits/hazards and getting past the fear of highsides.
-----------------------------

One of my 2018 resolutions is to revisit my track education in light of what I've learned over the last year. That includes re-reading TOTW II and thinking a lot about how it maps to my experience. This exercise has got me thinking about having greater faith in grip levels and what I can do to get more comfortable out there.

One of my biggest challenges is timidity. More than anything else I fear losing the rear, highsiding and sailing off into the wild blue like Superman.

In practice it means my roll-on is slower and weaker than it should be. It's a very real mental block, related to the "finding the edge" discussions we've had here.

I don't have a specific question in mind, but I'd like to spark a discussion about this. I'm thinking that there's a lot more of a traction margin than I believe there to be, especially in the rear tire.

I say this because my rear -- a Pirelli SC2 slick -- is still in fine shape even after a WHOLE SEASON at modest intermediate pace (~7-8 track days in the middle of the TTD yellow group; groups are black-blue-yellow-red, fast to slow). That has to be evidence of something...most likely that I'm babying the throttle too much (right?).

So if I can move past my fear of corner grip shortcomings and get it on more assertively, what can I expect?

Speculation:

- More feeling of stability and a more settled chassis because the bike "likes" to be accelerating through the turn (throttle rule 1). Thinking that the bike will feel more planted, not less, because more load is going into the rear, where most of the rubber is. Fear of spinning the rear up and losing it is keeping me from feeling this, I think....

- Smoother flow because the bike is carrying more speed through the corner; less need to climb up out of a bucket. (I recently saw a video of a TTD instructor lapping Palmer in the 1:42 range, which is darned quick -- it's in the NE Trackday thread. The bike stays up on song most of the lap, which gives an overall impression of greater smoothness.)

Discuss. Thanks!

@Misti @csmith12 @Ducati999
Awesome thread!!! I love reading these great discussions and the questions and the very thoughtful answers and OH the joy of it all!!! People actually seriously talking about riding technique with the hopes of improving their own riding! It's what I wish to encourage everyone to do. YAY!!

That being said, I love the original post (quoted above) and I think adouglas has put a lot of thought and effort into the comments. You have the sequence correct and everything sounds great, it's just a matter of actually getting it done. Rolling on the gas harder and taking away that FEAR.

So let's figure out what is causing the fear. You said you were afraid of sliding the rear and high-siding but that you hadn't really ever gotten close to feeling the rear slip at all.

1st things first. Do you understand high-sides completely? How they occur, what the slide will first feel like, why riders get high sided? I have a feeling you do, but understanding the why and how first will take away SOME of the fear.

Second of all though, we need to figure out what is preventing you from rolling on the gas harder on exit. You know you should, you probably try, but no matter how much you tell your right hand to roll on the gas harder it just won't WHY.

WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?

Think about it this way, if you are certain of exactly where you are, and where you want to go, and you can see it ahead of time, do you have more confidence? If you have confidence in where you are and where you are going, can you roll on the gas harder through a corner?
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Old January 15th, 2018, 08:29 AM   #24
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adouglas, Clearly you have a healthy respect for what can happen if you get it really wrong when applying throttle as you exit a corner. I do too, as my worst racing injury happened due to a highside. Only I didn't do it on an R6, but a 40hp Honda RS125. And it happened because I violated a rule I learned several years earlier. The rule I learned was to make my improvements in small increments and the way I learned that was while racing my Yamaha Seca II. You see, I was out on a typical race weekend and I was gradually getting on the throttle earlier and earlier while exiting T4 at Grattan. As I was doing that, a noticed that rear was starting to feel a bit different, just moving around a bit more as I got on the gas a bit harder each time. I realized that the bike was telling me something: "I'm getting ready to slide." So I just kept gradually getting on the gas harder bit by bit, and then it happened: A small rear wheel slide and the first time I spun the back tire on purpose. A big deal, but no big deal as I simply kept the throttle steady and waited for the rear to regain full grip and kept right on going. The point is this: If you make your improvements in small increments the bike will let you know that it is starting to behave a little differently and you won't be surprised by what happens as you continue gradually push the envelope. You will be prepared for it and it won't be a problem. Problems happen when we try to make big gains all at once and we get surprised by what the bike does. That's what happened with my RS125 when I got too worried about losing ground to another guy and tried to exit the corner a lot faster and gave it too much throttle. Result: Highside and separated shoulder.

It doesn't matter what others are doing. Work at your own pace, make your improvements in small increments, and when the slide comes it won't be a big deal.... except for you realizing that you just spun the rear on purpose and having a huge grin on your face because of what you just accomplished!
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Old January 15th, 2018, 09:27 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Misti View Post

Second of all though, we need to figure out what is preventing you from rolling on the gas harder on exit. You know you should, you probably try, but no matter how much you tell your right hand to roll on the gas harder it just won't WHY.

WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?

Think about it this way, if you are certain of exactly where you are, and where you want to go, and you can see it ahead of time, do you have more confidence? If you have confidence in where you are and where you are going, can you roll on the gas harder through a corner?
Challenging questions as always, Misti. Let's see how I do....

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Originally Posted by Misti View Post

1st things first. Do you understand high-sides completely? How they occur, what the slide will first feel like, why riders get high sided? I have a feeling you do, but understanding the why and how first will take away SOME of the fear.
There are three parts to that question.
How: I know that a high side happens when you lose the rear but then allow it to hook up again while the bike is sideways.
What it first feels like: Don't think I have a lot of insight here. I locked the rear momentarily once or twice on my Ninjette, but never at speed. Feels like you're tripping over your own feet... hoik!
Why riders high side: Chopping the throttle. Those amazing clips we've seen of Marquez saving a bike that has for all intents and purposes already crashed shows what staying on the throttle can really do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misti View Post

Second of all though, we need to figure out what is preventing you from rolling on the gas harder on exit. You know you should, you probably try, but no matter how much you tell your right hand to roll on the gas harder it just won't WHY.

WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?

Think about it this way, if you are certain of exactly where you are, and where you want to go, and you can see it ahead of time, do you have more confidence? If you have confidence in where you are and where you are going, can you roll on the gas harder through a corner?
I got private instruction from Ken Condon last season and he said my visual references are good. I'm doing the two-step from apex to exit pretty well, I think. Answers to the rest of the questions are yes and yes.

During instruction Ken diagnosed part of what I was doing as overreaction. I was "fifty pencing" corners, reacting to every little thing. Thinking too much.

I suspect that this is similar. I'm overthinking it, overchecking myself, and hesitating as a result. So my roll-on is slow and weak.
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Old January 15th, 2018, 10:19 AM   #26
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Challenging questions as always, Misti. Let's see how I do....



There are three parts to that question.
How: I know that a high side happens when you lose the rear but then allow it to hook up again while the bike is sideways.
What it first feels like: Don't think I have a lot of insight here. I locked the rear momentarily once or twice on my Ninjette, but never at speed. Feels like you're tripping over your own feet... hoik!
Why riders high side: Chopping the throttle. Those amazing clips we've seen of Marquez saving a bike that has for all intents and purposes already crashed shows what staying on the throttle can really do.



I got private instruction from Ken Condon last season and he said my visual references are good. I'm doing the two-step from apex to exit pretty well, I think. Answers to the rest of the questions are yes and yes.

During instruction Ken diagnosed part of what I was doing as overreaction. I was "fifty pencing" corners, reacting to every little thing. Thinking too much.

I suspect that this is similar. I'm overthinking it, overchecking myself, and hesitating as a result. So my roll-on is slow and weak.
Good clear answers here, thank you. I want to stick with the visuals for a bit more though. There is a reason you are "fifty pencing" corners and over re-acting so we need to figure out why.

You say you are doing the 2-step from apex to exit pretty well. Let's take a look at a corner you are familiar with where you feel you still have a weak roll on. How soon are you picking up your exit rp? Are you already at the apex when you are looking to the exit? And what exactly are you using as an exit RP? The edge of the track, shape of the corner, or something in the distance? Do you have something to aim for after the "exit" of the corner?
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Old January 15th, 2018, 12:06 PM   #27
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Good clear answers here, thank you. I want to stick with the visuals for a bit more though. There is a reason you are "fifty pencing" corners and over re-acting so we need to figure out why.

You say you are doing the 2-step from apex to exit pretty well. Let's take a look at a corner you are familiar with where you feel you still have a weak roll on. How soon are you picking up your exit rp? Are you already at the apex when you are looking to the exit? And what exactly are you using as an exit RP? The edge of the track, shape of the corner, or something in the distance? Do you have something to aim for after the "exit" of the corner?
I'm definitely looking for the exit before I hit the apex, but probably not early enough. My track day org sets up exit cones, so those are the RPs I use to start with.

I think I've been 50-pencing because I haven't been sure I could get the bike where I want it to be. Turn, assess, question, correct, assess, question, correct, rinse and repeat.... Every time I question I'm hesitating to roll it on.

After that coaching day I started thinking more about focusing and really trying to get to that apex cone with my first input. That helped. Think less, stop over-analyzing everything, calm the sensory input.

One corner I have in mind is Turn 9 at Palmer... this is the track in the video I posted earlier in this thread (the rider in that video is very fast). The turn in question appears at 1:27, 3:05 etc.....

It's a long, descending carousel with heavy camber. The apex is very late, as are a number of the big turns at that track (7, 9, 12). You can't see it until you're already in the turn, and you can't see the exit cone until you're about halfway around. I know intellectually that I can get on the throttle really early in this turn (because of the camber) but I can't help but wait... and I tend to over-turn the bike instead of letting it run to the outside. I lose a lot of time there.

Here's video of me at the same track, including a face-cam angle. You can't see my eyes, but my head isn't waving around looking at a bunch of different stuff. You can also hear how much maintenance throttle I'm using and how slow my roll-ons are.

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old January 15th, 2018, 02:29 PM   #28
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@Misti Ah... I knew I had a vid uploaded somewhere. Found it. This is Ken's follow video of me. The "Before" showing all kinds of overcorrection. Look at that knee puck bob up and down!

Link to original page on YouTube.

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Old February 13th, 2018, 01:06 PM   #29
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I'm definitely looking for the exit before I hit the apex, but probably not early enough. My track day org sets up exit cones, so those are the RPs I use to start with.

I think I've been 50-pencing because I haven't been sure I could get the bike where I want it to be. Turn, assess, question, correct, assess, question, correct, rinse and repeat.... Every time I question I'm hesitating to roll it on.

After that coaching day I started thinking more about focusing and really trying to get to that apex cone with my first input. That helped. Think less, stop over-analyzing everything, calm the sensory input.

One corner I have in mind is Turn 9 at Palmer... this is the track in the video I posted earlier in this thread (the rider in that video is very fast). The turn in question appears at 1:27, 3:05 etc.....

It's a long, descending carousel with heavy camber. The apex is very late, as are a number of the big turns at that track (7, 9, 12). You can't see it until you're already in the turn, and you can't see the exit cone until you're about halfway around. I know intellectually that I can get on the throttle really early in this turn (because of the camber) but I can't help but wait... and I tend to over-turn the bike instead of letting it run to the outside. I lose a lot of time there.

Here's video of me at the same track, including a face-cam angle. You can't see my eyes, but my head isn't waving around looking at a bunch of different stuff. You can also hear how much maintenance throttle I'm using and how slow my roll-ons are.

Link to original page on YouTube.

How many RP's do you have in that corner?
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Old February 13th, 2018, 01:09 PM   #30
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@Misti Ah... I knew I had a vid uploaded somewhere. Found it. This is Ken's follow video of me. The "Before" showing all kinds of overcorrection. Look at that knee puck bob up and down!

Link to original page on YouTube.


Once you initially press on the bar to initiate the turn, how long do you hold the pressure on that inside bar? How long should you have pressure on that inside bar?
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Old February 13th, 2018, 01:16 PM   #31
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How many RP's do you have in that corner?
Three. Tip-in, apex cone (which I have to wait for because it's very late and pops out from behind a tire wall) and exit cone.

I also use the center pavement seam for orientation.
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Old February 13th, 2018, 01:20 PM   #32
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Once you initially press on the bar to initiate the turn, how long do you hold the pressure on that inside bar? How long should you have pressure on that inside bar?
Until I've got the bike pointed is my answer for both.

However, because I've been letting off before really getting the bike pointed where it ought to be going, I wind up making more than one input. I've held pressure until I've got the bike pointed but it's not pointing the right way. I'll be LOOKING a the apex, but I won't have steered the bike enough to GET to the apex.

After this instructional session, I started thinking more about "getting there," thinking to go TO the apex, not just go by it.
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Old February 15th, 2018, 01:57 PM   #33
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After this instructional session, I started thinking more about "getting there," thinking to go TO the apex, not just go by it.
As I have said before....

"As riders, we hope to one day train ourselves to go where we look on purpose vs by accident."
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Old February 20th, 2018, 02:51 PM   #34
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Three. Tip-in, apex cone (which I have to wait for because it's very late and pops out from behind a tire wall) and exit cone.

I also use the center pavement seam for orientation.
So this is a long sweeping corner and you can't actually SEE the apex cone from tip in so would having another RP in between turn in point and apex help you feel more online and located? Would that give you a more specific line to follow and more chance of actually making the apex? What could you use as a good RP there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adouglas View Post
Until I've got the bike pointed is my answer for both.

However, because I've been letting off before really getting the bike pointed where it ought to be going, I wind up making more than one input. I've held pressure until I've got the bike pointed but it's not pointing the right way. I'll be LOOKING a the apex, but I won't have steered the bike enough to GET to the apex.

After this instructional session, I started thinking more about "getting there," thinking to go TO the apex, not just go by it.
Yes, you want to hold pressure on the bar until the bike is at the lean angle you want and pointed in the direction you want to go, then you release all pressure and focus on good throttle control. You are making steering corrections (which I can see in the video) and this is most likely because you aren't looking exactly where you want to be (or you can't see it from the turn in point) If you had another RP before the apex, would that give you something more solid to aim for, and reduce the chances of making multiple steering corrections?

I hope this is helping you sort out what is toeing on
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